Tuesday, 9 June 2009

Learning The Lessons of The Elections

No one could have been surprised at the results of the County Council and Euro elections. New Labour’s vote has been declining since 2003, when the Iraq War was just one catalyst in an increasing recognition that New Labour was all show and no substance, and that the show simply was maintained by a veneer of lies and deception. In 2005, New Labour was saved at the elections by the continued divisions in the Tory Party, and its unelectability arising from a remembrance of what it was when in Government. Blaming Gordon Brown for Labour’s problems on the basis that things would not have been so bad under Blair is then ridiculous, suggesting that it would be any better under any of the other Blairite/Brownite alternatives such as Miliband or Johnson, is equally ridiculous. If anything, given that protracted period of decline, given the fact that Britain along with much of the Capitalist world has experienced the worst financial crisis in history, and a subsequent sharp recession, given the experience of the MP’s expenses scandals, and the antics of Blairite MP’s in the days prior to the election, the surprise should be that Labour won as many seats as they did!!!!

Some have criticised No2EU for the fact that the BNP and UKIP won more seats in Council and EU elections. I have been as critical of No2EU as anyone, but I would not make such a charge. The responsibility for the rise in support for the BNP and UKIP rests solely on the shoulders of New Labour, which has consistently failed to address the concerns of the most oppressed sections of the working class – including those sections in the ethnic communities that have themselves voted for these parties! – and who have pandered to racist and nationalist ideas. No 2EU cannot be blamed for the votes won by the BNP and UKIP, but they can be blamed for feeding into that wave of nationalist ideology rather than combating it.

Having said, all that what are the facts? The fact, is as stated above, that given the size of both polls, and the other circumstances, Labour’s result was disastrous, but not THAT disastrous. For one thing, the reality is that, come the next General Election, the only credible alternative is the Tories, and the Tories STILL failed even under all these favourable conditions to increase their share of the vote!!!! In the Euro elections the Liberals share of the vote actually went down!!! The Liberals also failed to improve their position in the County elections. The conclusion from this seems to be that a) a large number of Labour’s working class support simply stayed at home – this seems particularly to be the case in Wales b) a small section of Labour’s vote, probably from the most backward sections, went to the BNP, and more still to UKIP, c) a further section of Labour’s vote from what might be termed the enlightened middle classes went over to the Greens, d) The Tories failed to make any headway, partly because of the expenses scandal, which showed them to be totally out of touch with ordinary people – the moats etc – and partly because they can be seen as simply a “New Labour Mark 2”, with Cameron in the role of Blair, providing more show and no substance e) the Liberals got squeezed as they usually do under such conditions f) the Greens picked up a substantial protest vote, g) the BNP despite their Euro election results actually failed to make any great headway h) but, their vote and that of UKIP showed the usual retreat into the kind of Nationalist/Protectionist mentality that goes along with such periods of economic turbulence – after all the No2EU, and many of the TU leaders have fallen prey to it also. The latter was also evident in the results for similar parties across Europe.
In the aftermath of the elections, and the attempted Blairite coup, Brown’s position has been stabilised, but at a cost. There is no doubt that what was launched was a Blairite coup. Its failure was down to the fact that some of those Blairites put their own careers above their loyalty to the clan. Central seems to have been the role of Mandelson. According to the media in the week before an e-mail was ready to be sent to MP’s for them to sign to get rid of Brown. Was it a real e-mail, or was it something cooked up by the bourgeois media? I don’t know, but no such e-mail was sent, and at the PLP meeting the opposition to Brown seems to have been negligible.

The pundits say that Mandelson’s role, and the fact that Brown had to keep in place Miliband and Darling, means that Brown is hostage to the Blairites. Does that mean that the Party is set to move back towards that Blairite agenda? That would assume that there is some difference between that agenda, and the agenda that Brown has been following! There isn’t. And, the fact is that Blairites like Mandelson, and Miliband are not stupid. Careerists yes, stupid, no. And if you want to further your career, you first have to get elected. It has to be clear that a continuation of the existing policies could only result in defeat.

Already, its being suggested that the part-privatisation of Royal mail has gone. Its also being suggested that Brown is going to put forward a crash social house building programme. Careerists and bureaucrats know how to tack and adapt their positions when their jobs depend upon it. That together with the expenses scandal, which should open up a massive demand for widespread deselection of corrupt and ineffective MP’s should provide a massive opportunity for the Left in the Part’s grass roots, who are hopping mad at what they have seen.

The problem is that much of that Left in the LP is disorganised. To the extent that it is organised in groups like Compass, it is organised around inadequate politics. The main organising influences that used to exist in the LP – for all their faults and sectarianism – the Militant, and other similar groups – abandoned the political fight inside the LP nearly 20 years ago. They bear a large part of the blame in doing so, for the power that the Blairites have been able to hold since.

The argument used by such groups, today, that they are barred from joining is ridiculous. It’s the same sectarian nonsense that the Communist Party used to come out with after it was rejected in its application for membership having declared its intention to support he Workers Party like a rope supports a hanged man!!!! These groups engage in all kinds of silly games such as members having “secret” ‘Party Names’ in order to maintain the illusion that they are today engaged in some ind of similar activity to that of the Bolsheviks operating under a Tsarist police State. The reality is that socialists have managed to operate under far more restrictive conditions than any they would face in the LP. But, if they insist on being separate parties to the Workers Party, if they insist on denouncing the ordinary workers in the LP as being traitors to their class, if they only want to operate in the LP in order to build their own party and not the Workers’ Party, if they want to renege on all fundamental tenets of workers democracy by standing their own candidates in opposition to those of the Workers Party, whenever they are unable to win a majority to their position, in other words, if they are unwilling to take serious their responsibility to work alongside ordinary workers in those Workers’ Party, then yes, they will find it difficult if not impossible to do, and rightly so.
The reality is that, however badly Labour did, in these elections, the Left outside the LP did infinitely much worse! The idea that there is some class conscious, let alone revolutionary pool of anxious workers out there just waiting for a Left alternative to Labour, has yet again been shown to be a complete fantasy. The only significant pool of workers who have lost faith in Labour, and are attracted to an alternative, are not some group of class warriors, but are those that are heading in the opposite direction, off to the Right, to UKIP and the BNP. The reality is that the class conscious workers such as they are, remain those still in and around the Labour Party. That may be a dismal and depressing reality to face, it does not make it any less a reality all the same. If the Left cannot work with those workers in the LP, then they have absolutely no chance of working with workers outside it. In fact, the Lindsey refinery strike is just an industrial equivalent. Much of the left completely bottled it over the strike, unable to come to terms with the fact that these workers held reactionary ideas. To their credit the SP did not. They had militants in place, and were able to respond accordingly. But, that was one instance. The left simply is not big enough to do that on a wide scale, and it certainly is not able to do it at a polit8ical rather than an industrial level.

The rise of the BNP, and of UKIP should tell us one central thing – unity of the working class, and of the Left in action is vital now. The reality is that the continued calls for an alternative Party to Labour, and the waste of good militants in such ventures are nothing more than Third period Ultra-Leftism. The response of the left has shown its ideological confusion. On the one hand we had one of the largest groups on the left, the SP in the reactionary No2EU adventure. Not only was it based upon reactionary national socialist ideas, but it began by proscribing many Left organisations! On the other we have had the Stalinist AWL swinging violently from one position to another and back even within a matter of days if not hours! Having told us that the LP was a “stinking corpse”, it then apparently decided that well perhaps, they should once again infest this corpse. Even as they were doing so, they were making calls for an alternative to it, and for a new “Socialist Alliance” to stand candidates against it!!!!

The unserioussness of this position was highlighted by one of their former members Tom Rigby in this post to their website An Incoherent Perspective . It is one thing for the Left to build a working class anti-fascist movement to confront the BNP on the streets, rather than to be constrained to what the official Party structures will allow – though, it would be much better to build such a movement by arguing for it and winning support for it WITHIN the LP Branches, as well as the Trade Union Branches and workplaces! – but, it is something else to insult the intelligence of workers and their Party by claiming you want to be honest members of it whilst standing candidates against it!!!

Now, the SWP have apparently put out a call for a unity offensive, for the creation of some kind of unified Left organisation. On the face of it this would seem to be a good thing, but in reality it is a sham. As I wrote in my blog Marxists and the LP , the AWL’s turn has two roots. On the one hand it saw the SP hook up with the CPB, and its exclusion, and saw a pool within which to swim denied it, whilst on the other hand, its loss of faith in the working class leaves it floundering around looking for some tide to catch in the hope of being dragged along in the direction it wants to travel. Having abandoned Marxism in favour of Third Camp subjectivism it has become just political flotsam tossed about by political events, having descended into Stalinism in its organisational methods it is forced to justify its continual zig and zags, by bureaucratism, loyalty pledges, and continual rewriting of history. Its done that continually in its misrepresentation of Trotsky’s writings, now it is forced to do it even in relation to its own positions!

But, the SWP’s unity offensive is no different. The whole history of these organisations is that they are not really interested in unity – the are only interested in building their own organisation! Unity offensives, mergers with other small groups and so on are just tactics by which to achieve it. The reality is that there is only one real basis of unity, and that is unity WITHIN the Workers Party. None of these groups need deny their own political ideas if they advance down that road, but the reality is that they will then find that in practice what workers are interested in is who can provide the answers here and now to their problems, rather than simply telling them that the only solution is Socialism, or that the only solution is more militancy etc.

Having said that if the Left outside the Labour Party were to achieve some kind of real unity that would be good. But, it would, necessarily be short lived if it continued with the fantasy that it then represented some kind of alternative to labour as the Workers Party. There have been much greater forces, united on much solider grounds than any the current extra LP Left is likely to achieve, and in far more propitious conditions than those which exist today, that have come to grief on the rocks of that illusion. Looking at the proposal put forward by the SWP, its clear that such an organisation would then make some kind of bold appeal to the left inside the Labour Party to support it, a unity offensive of its own, along the lines of the United Front. As I said above, on some limited actions that might indeed be possible such as fighting the fascists. But, in reality this again is a fantasy. Even were all of these groups to come together, they would still represent nothing! They would have what, maybe 5,000 members. Even now, that is only around a tenth to a twentieth of the number of workers in the LP. Take into consideration the actual degree of the periphery, the effectiveness of organisation, the implantation in the class, through the Trade Unions, in the community organisations, the direct personal relations etc. it would be in reality even more meaningless. The votes that such organisations have been able to achieve in the past show that to undeniably true.

And, when Trotsky wrote about the United Front, he was speaking quite specifically about a situation where the working class was pretty much equally divided between support for a Social Democratic party and a Communist Party. He even puts a figure on it, at least 40% support! It is ludicrous for such organisations then to talk in terms of proposing a United Front to the Workers Party! As workers and the Left in the Workers Party, we have one simple response to such calls – if you want Unity, then join us here in the Workers Party, join us in the fight. As Trotsky says, if the Communist Party has less than that 40% support ffrom the workers why on Earth would the existing Workers Party, or the workers within it, have the slightest interest in its proposals???? The existing Workers Party, and the workers within it, can and would simply ignore it! Their message would be simple, we represent the workers you represent nothing. If you want to work with us, then come and do so.

70 comments:

Anonymous said...

After 12 years of new labour, including their participation in two military invasions, and their steadfast refusal to reverse the anti-union legislation it is hard to recognise them as left wing at all. Surely the low level of socialist consciousness in Britain is an argument against that strategy. Instead, it is aligning with reformism that prevents the left from speaking directly to the working class. Just look at the relative performance of the Socialist party and Sinn Fein in Dublin's election. If you stick with it and keep left you'll win the people eventually.
http://revolutionaryireland.blogspot.com

Anonymous said...

In substance, your argument is for for all leftists to be in the Labour Party and - further - not to do or say anything which would get you denied admission (as I have been in the past) or thrown out (as a good many people were in the 80s).

I would be more persuaded by this argument if there was any sign that the left inside Labour was in the slightest degree less sectarian than the left outside Labour. I think we have to confront sectism directly in order to create a left which can work effectively (partly) within Labour, rather than imagining that working inside Labour will cure us of sectism.

Boffy said...

No, simply sticking with it will not work. It didn't work for the CP over nearly 100 years, despite its much larger size and even its funding from the USSR. It didn't work for the ILP, which was also much bigger than today's Left, and had better politics than the CP - and it has to be said better than many of the current Centrist organisations like the SWP - it has not worked for the SWP, nor did it work for the WRP, nor has it worked for the myriad of sects that have isolated themselves outside the LP for the last 20 years.

On the contrary, that "sticking at it", has seen those groups and parties decline both numerically and politically. For some like the SWP decline politically to a grotesque degree!

No, simply being in the LP will not of itself cure the Left of sectarianism. The Militant and other groups were highly sectarian when they were in the LP. The point is that it is the reason for being in the Party, which is fundamental. If the reason is simply an application of a tactic then that sectarianism will persist. But, Marx and Engels made clear what the attitude of Marxists SHOULD be in what hey said about their own membership of the German Democrats. They said that they formed its Left-wing, but only a wing. That is they did not see themselves as a separate party, but wholly a part of that party despite its bourgeois nature.

That is consistent with what Engels says about Marx's own personal attitude to the working class. Engels says that for Marx nothing he did could ever be too good for the workers. Their attitude was precisely to act as teachers for the workers, allowing them as Engels says to make mistakes in order the better to learn.

That is not the attitude of the left today, which acts as though it expects the workers to have the same level of class-consciousness as them already, and to dismiss them and their Party because they do not!

Lenin described the LP as a bouregois workers party, but in reality EVERY real Worekrs Party is a bouregois Party to some exteent, precisely because gthe working class is dominated by bourgeois ideas, and that has to be reflected in the Party it creates, and supports. Only when the working class is liberated from those bouregois ideas can its Part also reflect that, but, of course, this is a dialectical process, and the Part is not a mechanical reflection of those ideas, and that level of class conscioussness. Neverhteless, it remains important to remember that relationship, otherwise teh Left will continue to make the kinds of sectarian mistakes it has made for the last 100 years.

As Lenin pointed out the fact that Communists realise that bouregois demcoracy has become historically bankrupt, does not mean that workers have come to that realisation, and so Communists have to operate with that understanding, participating in bouregois demcoracy in order to help workers come to thaat realisation. The same applies to the LP. Communists may beleive it is a bouregois Party, may beleive that some other Part is needed to repalce it. The workers do not, and Marxists have to act accordingly!

The Sentinel said...

Nearly a million people voted for the BNP and they gained two MEP's.

Like it or not they clearly enjoy popular support and they clearly now have a mandate.

Boffy said...

I would not deny that the BNP secured nearly a million votes, and that certainly amounts in some degree to Popular support. In fact, as I've argued elsewhere, there is probably even greater popular support for some of those racist ideas of the BNP within the working class than even that vote suggests.

But, even so 1 million votes is NOT a mandate. It represents still only around 5% of the total voting population. A madate requires a majority of votes or at least ten times the vote secured by the BNP - and before you raise the objection, no I don't think that Labour or any other party's minority shares of the vote constitute a mandate either! That is why I favour proportional representation rather than the current system of systematic vote rigging.

All that demonstrates is the work that socialists have to do to challenge those basic bouregois ideas, and in particular the racist and nationalist ideas that have been inpmlanted in the conscioussness of workers by Capitalism over the last few hundred years.

Fortunately, in the short term, the Capitalist class has no use for the BNP. On the contrary they are likely to see them as a destabilising force, a disorderly rabble of yobs in suits. Over coming weeks and months for that reason the bouregoisie are likely to turn their fire upon them, and even some of the gutter press such as the Mail and express whose lies and racist filth have helped the BNP to grow will either tone down their propaganda or face sanctions from their masters. The Mail has already had to show the hypocrisy of its position in its support for the unlimited immigration of Ghurkas, for instance.

For now, the BNP have probably seen their high-point. But, its up to socialists to challenge and drain the swamp in which they slither on their bellies, not rely on the bourgeoisie to do that work for us.

The Sentinel said...

The mandate I am talking about comes from having two democratically elected MEP's, not necessarily a 'nation-wide' mandate as yet.

And yes, I too would imagine that the BNP support base is actually much, much larger and would have probably transmuted into votes, if not for the absolutely unprecedented daily media campaign against the BNP, including your Daily Mail (and the BNP supported the Gurkha's too in any case).

Much of that campaign was based upon lies too, with one prime example being The Sun running a story based upon a forged leaflet.

Another recent one would be the uniform media attack on the BNP in general and its security member Jay in particular for doing his job (one the police failed to do and watched on instead) in pushing away the organised actions of Anna Heath of the UAF when she quite deliberately tried to stop or slow Nick Griffin down so that that violent mob (throwing bottles as well as eggs, and 2 by 2's, throwing punches and kicking cars) could catch up to him; the media reported it as an attack - a punch or elbow - in the throat of an innocent passer by ad nauseam, when it was clearly just a push of away on someone who choose to assist a mob. They did not report the facts then and they are not now.

But not really a surprise there considering the very dubiously funded and interlinked so-called Hope not Hate admit "we placed anti-BNP articles in the national newspapers on a daily basis"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jun/08/bnp-protest-vote-success

Whether they be true or not.

But I must admit, it is quite a reach that; and quite a Banana republic scenario too.

But the BNP won 2 seats in any case and it has shown the wavering voters that it can be achieved even through a concerted establishment onslaught and that will make all the difference at the next elections. That and the actions of the so-called UAF.

The concerns that lead people to the BNP have no answers anywhere else nor will anyone else even attempt to debate them at all. No party.

Contrary to your contention that the BNP are "a disorderly rabble of yobs in suits" the vast majority are very decent, very ordinary people, as the leaked list proved and also with a sizeable number around or not far off your age, as are pretty much all of the candidates fielded and in office - in fact all the public have seen as "a disorderly rabble of yobs" is the undemocratic left - the UAF.

Just like anything in life, political parties included, there are some bad eggs, but that is certainly not limited to the BNP, its just that the BNP get special attention. See the site below for many examples, the latest being a Tory councillor jailed for 8 years for raping a 13 year old girl - can you imagine the furore if it was a BNP councillor?!

Go on, be honest, do you think it just might have made it out of the local paper in that case - The Harlow Herald?

http://liarsbuggersandthieves.blogspot.com/

The reality is, I strongly suspect, that not only is not just the high point of the BNP's career but it is just the start of much more open support in elections and the start of many more office to come and the general election is a year away at most.

The BNP are rising, make no mistake, and the only people that can be blamed for that are those that brought about the circumstances, the fermenting ground, for that rise.

Boffy said...

1. Having two MEP’s is not a mandate. A mandate means the authority to be able to actuall do something granted as a result of having obtained a majority of support for the proposed action. The BNP with only 5% support have won nothing close to such support for any action!

2. I did not say that the base support for the BNP is much larger. I said that there is much larger support for the racist ideas that the BNP promotes than those votes would suggest. That is not the same as support for the BNP. Many people have held such racist views for a long time, and see no contradiction in them, and their previous and continued support for Labour – or for that matter the Tories and probably even the Liberals. The London dockers who marched in support of Powell in the 1970’s, remained militant Trade Unionists, thereby putting themselves on the opposite side of the barricades to fascists like the BNP. They also voted virtually to a man for Labour!

3. There is a saying that any publicity is good publicity. If the BNP is publicised as being racist, and thereby chimes in with racist sentiments then that publicity will have won it votes not lost it votes. Certainly, many people admitted they voted for it, as a protest vote based on it being presented by the media as ant-Establishment.

4. The fact the BNP supported the Ghurkas just shows what a bunch of hypocrites and populists they really are!

Much of that campaign was based upon lies too, with one prime example being The Sun running a story based upon a forged leaflet.

5. It is rather rich for members and supporters of the BNP to complain about being roughed up by anti-fascists given that they belong to an organisation that has been responsible for promoting and organising violence against ethnic communities, against Trade Unionists and so on. It is rich to complain about media treatment from an organisation that if it ever were to obtain power would close down the free press, and other democratic channels, including opposition parties! Whose leading members whatever their attempts to present themselves as respectable today, are known Hitler worshippers!

6. The BNP have no answers for ordinary working people precisely because like all fascist parties their function is to save the bosses skin, by diverting workers attention from their real enemy towards foreigners, by attacking the workers own defence organisations against those bosses, the Trade Unions and socialist organisations. That has been the history of every fascist organisation everywhere in the world.

7. Similarly, such parties have always been fronted by supposedly “respectable” middle class people, who lead the party, whilst relying on ignorant yobs and dupes to act as their storm troopers. The BNP fits that profile perfectly.

8. When the BNP complain about the violence from the UAF and others, all they are really complaining about is the fact that so far the Left is able to organise more effective violence than the BNP has been able to muster.

9. The reality is that the BNP actually failed to make any real headway in these elections despite, the most favourable conditions it could have desired. Its competitors in the BNP light UKIP did far better, and its people like UKIP who the Daily Mail will tend to favour as a safer option for the bosses. But, in reality neither UKIP nor the BNP at the moment are needed by the most important sections of Capital. In fact, they are detrimental to their current interests. That is why its likely that Capital will step on them to prevent them making any further headway. The left should take advantage of that and step on them even harder!

The Sentinel said...

1) It is a obviously a democratic mandate for the BNP in the Northwest and Yorkshire and the Humber regions, clearly. They now have an MEP in each region and that is the very definition of a mandate in a democratic society. The BNP also have a mandate, to varying degrees, on dozens of councils across the UK at all levels.

2) It will equate to the same thing, quite clearly. And you mistake legitimate concern and love for racism and hate. And it is people like you that tar the ordinary concerns of at least a million Britons, and most likely many, many more as racist and them personally as Nazis that alienates them even further. The media has been running a campign of lies and suppression of the truth for decades about the real impact of immigration and the true feelings of Britons. That disgusting abomination, the BBC even admits to its extreme left bias and its Goebbels style propaganda tactics:

"Roger Mosey, former head of television news at the BBC, now head of sport, is also quoted as saying the corporation displays "fairly overt support" for multiculturalism.

He also admitting having some sympathy with claims of a "liberal/pinko" agenda at times.

He recalled a news item about ethnic communities becoming the majority in parts of east London, where a reporter had told him that they had "worked really hard" to find a white resident who was happy with the situation[…}

Research in the review also found that even ethnic minorities felt that political correctness had gone to far and others said it was diluting comedy and entertainment at the broadcaster and complained of a "restrictive mind-set"


http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23400983-details/BBC+accused+of+institutional+%27trendy+left-wing+bias%27/article.do


3) Lying propaganda is not publicity at all; it is an orchestrated campaign of insidious subterfuge that has no place in democratic Britain. And I notice that you have no answer about the media lies about an “innocent passer-by” by “elbowed in the throat” nor do you have any answer to the question if the Tory councillor was a BNP one, it would have been a non stop media circus. But then, I did ask you to be honest.

The Sentinel said...

4) Actually it shows that they are not a racist party and have a very true sense of moral debt and honour; that and the fact that many members are ex-service and have served with the Gurkha’s And incidentally I campaigned for the Gurkha’s and supported them on my blog. Was that for populist reasons too?


5) Have you got any proof whatsoever that the BNP that stood for election a short while back have organised or promoted any violence towards ethnic minorities? Because if you have tell me and I will report it to the police myself. As for Hitler worshippers, one or two may have a dubious distant past but so do many on your side of the fence.


6) The current argument doing the circles actually is the BNP are a party of the left; it was even discussed on SU blog. Whilst I do not agree with that, they most certainly do have policies that are socialist in nature. Certainly, as ethno-nationalists the only concern is for the country and its people, not materialism, and consequently they are the only ones who will put the british workers first and look after their interest. And seeing as the BNP are entirely funded by its members and its own enterprises - not one single capitalist donates money – it is bizarre that you somehow in the pockets of capitalists.


7) Again, in all reality, do you have even a scrap of evidence that the BNP has a secret army of “stormtroopers?”


8) Again, do you have any ebdiecne that the BNP have tried to organise any violence? Again, if you do tell me and I will take it to the police myself. But we have seen UAF violence, and we can see that it was planned too, with a “blocker” employed as well. Some more examples include a BNP member being hit over the head with a claw hammer; after the mermebrship leak families were threatened with death and a BNP member was subjected to a firebomb attack, just to mention a few real examples.


9) The BNP vote increased, despite all of the lying media reports and pseudo-analyse to the contrary, it and it did so, and elected 2 MEP’s and 3 country councillors through the most intense and virulent campaign in British history against a political party, and the most orchestrated establishment campaign of vilification and intimidation of British voters who considered voting for that legal party. People who were scared off, people who thought it would be a wasted vote now know that it is not, and that the BNP are prepared to walk through hell and still keep the same message – they are the only honest party in Britain today and the only viable party in Britain today not in it for the money. This is the start of the rise.

Boffy said...

Reply to Sentinel 13th June 2009

You claim that the BNP are not a racist party, and that their call for the Ghurkas to be able to come to Britain demonstrates that, as well as claiming that it did not show what a bunch of hypocrites and populists they really are. You also challenged the idea that the BNP uses violence.

This story from the Weekly Worker deals with both contentions.

“The BNP vote, needless to say, is the biggest problem for the respectable political establishment - especially when we examine exactly who it is the BNP will be packing off to Europe. Nick Griffin’s history is relatively well-known - a former hard-line advocate of street violence and virulent anti-semite, he came to supplant the openly Nazi John Tyndall as BNP leader in the late 90s after enacting one of the most spectacular (and unconvincing) volte-faces in British political history. Going from the most obscurantist anti-semitic position to that of the party’s leading ‘reformer’.
Brons has a similar trajectory: a founding member of the self-explanatory National Socialist Movement in the 1960s, he along with the NSM became part of the National Front following a series of fusions. He was a frequent NF electoral candidate and replaced Tyndall as its chairman. Like Griffin, he had links with the Political Soldier movement, which was influenced by Italian neo-fascist Roberto Fiore and cultivated alliances with repressive Arab regimes against the Jews. Brons was fined in the 1980s for calling a policeman of Malaysian descent an “inferior being”, and after a long period out of politics joined the BNP three years ago.
The BNP, then, has sent to the European parliament two men with notoriously Hitlerite histories and, while I cannot say whether or to what extent Brons has moderated his views, barely a month before donning the mantle of reform Griffin remained editor of anti-semitic journal The Rune, which excoriated holocaust-denier David Irving for admitting that any Jews were exterminated in the death camps.”
Weekly Worker
So, the BNP then has supported the right of “inferior beings” to use the description here of people of Asian descent!
If it really is not racist, and has abandoned such a view then it can easily demonstrate that by changing its rules to allow the non-white Ghurkas to also join the BNP!!!! Will it do so? What will you do to campaign for the Ghurkas, you so highly regard for non-populist, non-hypocritical reasons, to be able to join the BNP?
I’d start now, because in any case if the BNP wants to have its MEP’s paid or claim expenses, it will have to change its rules to allow in non-whites, because under BRITISH (you know that country the BNP say they regard so highly) Employment law any organisation that receives Public Funds, must comply with all Equal Opportunities legislation. It will be interesting to see how people cope with those they consider to be “inferior beings” having the same membership rights as them!!!
I suspect that the recent splits in the BNP, which its hypocrisy and contradictions have brought about as sections of the membership rebel at the restrictions Griffin’s attempt to make the Party look respectable have inflicted on it, will be nothing compared to the internal civil war that will break out as a result of the consequences of those contradictions and hypocrisy intensify now in the full glare of publicity!

The Sentinel said...

As usual Arthur you are very selective with your answers, choosing only to address parts of the debate that you think will score you a few points rather the debate as whole.

Maybe that is because I have demonstrated to any reasonable minded person that your claims are without evidence, and I have offered to present any evidence that you have of the BNP "organising and promoting" violence to the police personally.

Of course, you haven't taken me up on this offer. Why is that?

And so here we are, and again you present the "weekly worker" - an extremely biased extreme leftist rag as evidence to your point; if all you read all day long is your own propaganda, no wonder you are so out of touch with reality and what the people, especially the working class in Britain really think.

In any case, for the record, Bron's denied that charge in court, and given that you were not there, you cannot possibly know the truth what happened.

But Bron's political history was made fully public ad naseaum to the people of the constituency he now represents by the orchestrated alliance of the media and all other parties, and guess what? People didn't care. They still voted for him in sufficient quantities to elect him to represent them, so you might want to rethink the value of this 'information.'

As for your only premise, it is childish and weak.

The fascist mass-murdering incompetent liars that we call government are so shocked that their vitriol and intimidation didn't stop a real party that is not in it for the money gaining seats that they now they are trying to break them up with bizarre student tactics and bizarre legislation.

Your contention that the BNP will have change their membership policy to gain EU money (our taxpayers money in fact) is erroneous. As it stands, and until this fascist government enact further fascist legislation, it is still perfectly legal.

The Sentinel said...

But just a couple of examples will show the childish student politics behind this and your reasoning: You ask when I will campaign for the Gurkha's to join the BNP without any idea that as a white man I couldn't join the Gurkha's. Only officers are allowed to be from non-Nepalese stock, and as I wasn't born with a silver spoon that bars me from membership to all the Gurkha's regiments. But I shouldn't really have to explain that to you Arthur, the clue is in the name really.

So when are you going to campaign for disbanding of the Gurkha's or for the inclusion of other races into the Gurkha's, which will mean the end of the Gurkha's regiments in any case?

When do you think that the black caucus" of MP's in parliament will let whites in? Or the Labour parties own Black Socialist Society? Or the National Association of Black Police Officers? Or Greater Manchester Police Black and Asian Police Association?

And when will be condemning these and calling them to be disbanded?

Surely you are not just a shallow hypocrite?

You see, every other race and affiliation bar the indigenous one has a special interests group based on racial membership and for its exclusive own racial issues, but you only think that only the white group is wrong, And you call others racist?

It may come as a surprise to you, seeing as you have so much contempt for this country and its people, but merely having a piece of paper that says you are British doesn't actually make you British - as a wise man once said: "You can have jam written on a jar, it doesn't mean there is jam inside."

A recent survey of muslims revealed some very un-British and even anti-British attitudes: Even though 84% felt they had been fairly treated in the UK, 40% wanted Sharia law in Britain: Whippings, amputations stoning and beheadings; 36% wanted to put muslim converts to death; 40% wanted their children to attend a muslim only school and 13% said they "admired" organisations such as Al Qaeda which are prepared to "fight the West.

These ideas have nothing to do with the real Britain and the real British.

And of course, the vast majority of Britons are English and the very term English and England has a very definite racial and ancestral etymology: It is the land of the Angles and so are its people.

And so the real English are only Angles and Saxons - Anglo-Saxons.

Finally, the BNP's moral would appear to be extremely high - oddly enough! And given all the crap thrown at over the years, do you really think that in reality one more stupid piece of Marxist legalisation is going to make any difference whatsoever?

Boffy said...

You asked me to provide proof that the BNP is prepared to resort to political violence. I provided documented evidence of that. You have not been able to refute it. Whatever, Brons may have claimed the Court decided he was guilty. Whether voters did or not know that information, whether they voted for him in that knowledge is irrelevant to the actual facts.
But, if you want another example, take this statement,

“Griffin’s views are not only racist but fascist: he has previously described the BNP as "a strong, disciplined organisation with the ability to back up its slogan "Defend Rights for Whites’ with well-directed boots and fists. When the crunch comes, power is the product of force and will, not of rational debate."

See: Labour Leads Fight Against BNP Thugs

How many more instances of BNP thuggery would you like? But, in any case this is a Party whose leaders are known Hitler worshippers, a Man who was probably the biggest thug the world has seen!!!

I asked you to demonstrate that your support for the Ghurkas was not simply hypocritical populist posturing, by telling us when you would campaign for them to be able to join the BNP, who you told us are not racist. Instead of answering that simple question you go off on a long irrelevant ramble about anything and everything rather than answer that straightforward question. In fact, you first response is to launch an attack on those very same Ghurkas based on your own inability to join them!
As I would campaign for the Ghurkas or any other worker living in Britain to be able to join the LP my attitude to the Ghurkas not allowing in white non-officers is irrelevant, but just as a point of information I am opposed to any organisation excluding people on the basis of race, and I am opposed to things like Black Sections in the Labour Party for the same reason that Lenin opposed such Cultural National Autonomy as dividing the working class.

Given your open hostility to the Ghurkas here it’s a wonder you campaigned for them to be able to come to Britain, but that just shows how hypocritical your position is! I wasn’t asking about you joining the Ghurkas, but about you letting the Ghurkas join the BNP. Clearly, you have no intention of allowing the Ghurkas to join the BNP because they are non-white, and we can conclude from that that were you to every achieve power you would quickly act in a like manner to the Ghurkas simply living in Britain i.e. your populist campaign for their entry would quickly turn into its opposite. The BNP has made similar reversals in the past. When it was at its ant-semitic height it made deals with Arab regimes, now it feels that it can gain by playing down its anti-semitism, and taking advantage of the anti-Muslim fervour whipped up by the Daily mail and other rags, it decides to support Israel against Islamists!!!

Furthermore, you claim that the BNP are a Party for workers. But, if tens of thousands of Ghurkas and their families come to Britain as you have campaigned for, and to which I have no objection, then what would be more rational than for these worker Ghurkas to want to join a Party that you tell us so clearly represents the interests of workers??? After all, if this Party is not racist as you claim it would have no objection to their membership!
Actually, the law on receiving Public Funds is clear, and if Griffin and Brons want to get paid the BNP will have to change its rules to allow non-whites to join. The splits in the BNP show just how fragile the Party is, and how likely it is to blow apart under its own contradictions.

The Sentinel said...

Oh dear, oh dear, Arthur.

I have firmly established in the past that you and the truth part company on a regular basis and here you are again, exhibiting your pathological dishonesty in public yet again like it is some kind of badge of honour.

You really would say white is black if a fact goes against your brain washed dogma.

A summary of your lies and absurdities:

1) You have not provided any "documented evidence" of the BNP "organising and promoting" violence "against ethnic communities, against Trade Unionists and so on" - you have proved a link to extreme left wing rag that merely says Nick Griffin is "a former hard-line advocate of street violence" and provides no evidence whatsoever of any actual violence!!

2) You then link to another extreme left rag that makes similar bold statements but presents no facts! No evidence of any actual violence!!!

3) You then have the front to ask "How many more instances of BNP thuggery would you like?" when you haven't even provided ONE!!! You really are a delusional man!!!!

4) On the Gurkha's you say instead "of answering that simple question you go off on a long irrelevant ramble" when I clearly answered the question beyond your (limited) grasp of logic and powers of refutation!! Members of the BNP (in the main) could not join the Gurkha's and so why should the Gurkha's be able to join the BNP!!! And why on earth do you even think that the Gurkha's would want to join the BNP, when the BNP agenda is that of indigenous ethno-nationlism??!!!

5) Your next fantastic lie is that I " launch an attack on those very same Ghurkas" when the truth is I have actually CAMPAIGNED FOR GURKHA'S RIGHTS to equal pay and British residency!!!! You are such a bold faced liar it is breathtaking!!!

The Sentinel said...

6) You continue this fantastic lie with "Given your open hostility to the Ghurkas here" when you have never served this country for even a minute in your life!!! I have, and I have served with the Gurkha's many times, watching their back in combat as they have watched mine, and I still have Gurkha friends!!! Tell me, what have you ever done for the Gurkha's?!!

7) Your next lie is this: "you claim that the BNP are a Party for workers" - when I have never claimed any such thing. I stated that the BNP were a party for British workers and that they are. And as I have said the British are majority English- England, land of the Angles - and so the only true English are Anglo-Saxons and the only true Britons are Anglo-Saxons and Celts.

8) The BNP MEP's will be paid; but again, why do you think that ethnic minorities would WANT to joint a party whose agenda is indigenous ethno-nationlism? And what business is it of yours or anyone else's what a political party decides upon as it membership criteria? And especially what buisness is it of the fascist mass-murdering incompetent liars that we call government that have their own racially exclusive section to their OWN party - the Black Socialist Society? Or allows the National Association of Black Police Officers? Or the Greater Manchester Police Black and Asian Police Association?

9) And you end exactly how you started: With lies and absurdities: "The splits in the BNP show just how fragile the Party is" - what splits exactly? That membership issue has been dealt with!! The party is riding high with elected officials at every level of government in the UK excepting an MP - but that will most likely come within a year. It is you lot who lost out to the BNP and don't even come anywhere near close to the same level of representation!!! That is the truth!!!

But just to reiterate some of your ludicrous claims and the challenge:

1) In all reality, do you have even a scrap of evidence that the BNP has a secret army of “stormtroopers?”

2) Do you have one scrap of evidence of actual BNP violence?

3) Can you answer any of the other questions raised in this 'debate' instead of just cherry picking one element and then making a fool of yourself?


It is the inability to tell the truth; the easily exposed lies and the logic and common sense defying extremist dogma that you and your ilk posses that ensures that there will never be any electoral successes for you.

Face it, your biggest success was the so-called Labour party brought into power by an upper class toff like Blair and top heavy with other toff's in office - a 'Labour party' full of people who have never seen a days work in their life let alone done one!!

Labour party? More like dinner party!!!

And they have massively imploded under their own corruption, tyranny, lies and incompetence and forever lost the poor working class dupes they had taken for a ride.

And guess who they are now voting for now?

Face it, you and your socialist nightmare are coming to a close in this country.

Boffy said...

Oh dear,

Once again to make up for the fact that you cannot answer a simple question you try to cover your lack of an answer with swathes of meaningless verbiage.

1. either you beleive your nonsense about British people only being white Anglo-Saxons, and support the BNP's call thereby to rid Britain of non-white people, then your supposed campaign for Ghurkas to come here was sheer hypocrisy, and an attempt to leach off a popular campaign wsn't it as I said.

2. If you really do beleive that Ghurkas have the right to come here with their families as you claim then that only makes sense if they then have the same rights as other british people! That clearly includes the right to join a political party. So, why if you really DO support the Ghurkas will you not support their right to join the BNP????

3. Either you have to admit that the reason is because the BNP is a racist party that will not let them join because they are not white, or else you have to admit that your support for the Ghurkas is just a sham. Either way it demonstrates your hypocrisy and populism.

4. It is after all not the fault of inidvidual Ghurkas that you cannot join them. If it upsets you that much that you are not good enough to join such "inferior beings" as one of your Gaulieters describes them, why not campaign for them to let you in? Either way you should not hold it against the individual Ghurkas by refusing them entry.

5. Its interesting that you don't think there is any reason that Ghurkas would want to join the BNP. Of course, you don't because you know that the BNP is a racist party!!!

6. What your argument comes down to is the ridiculous idea that you campaign for Ghurkas to be able to come to Britain provided they accept being second class citizens. In your recent post you will not even recognise them as British workers. That on top of not letting them join a Part of their choice.

Again that shows the hypocrisy of your so called support for the Ghurkas.

7. I have provided you with the evidence of the BNP's willingness to resort to violence. As Chris Huhne said on this week's "Question Time", he asked his researches to come up with an A4 page of convictions for violence of teh BNP's leaders, but it ran to two A4 pages!

So its not necessary to provide information about current activities that could be disputed prior to going to Court, because tehir are more than enough actual convictions for viloent activity to put beyond contention the fact that the BNP are a bunch of fascist thugs. Even if there were not their support for Hitler would be enough on its own.

But, just to drip feed more logs to the fire burning you on this issue, here's another.

"Nick Griffin, convicted of violating section 19 of the Public Order Act 1986, relating to incitement to racial hatred. He received a nine-month prison sentence, suspended for two years.
Kevin Scott, a BNP supporter and former North East regional organiser, has convictions for assault and threatening behaviour.
Terry Collins, a party member, was jailed for five years after waging a year-long terror campaign against Asian families in Eastbourne.
Joe Owens, a former Merseyside BNP candidate and bodyguard to Nick Griffin, served eight months for sending razor blades to Jewish people and another term for carrying CS gas and knuckledusters.
Colin Smith, former BNP south-east London organiser, has 17 convictions for burglary, theft, stealing cars, possession of drugs and assaulting a police officer.
Tony Lecomber, a former BNP propaganda director, was jailed in 1985 after a nail bomb exploded as he carried it to the Workers’ Revolutionary party offices. Jailed again in 1991 for assaulting a Jewish teacher on the Underground."

From: David Cameron

Keep nodding your head, I'll keep hitting it!

The Sentinel said...

Yip - you really are a delusional liar, like the rest of your ilk.

1) Of course I believe it and the BNP manifesto doesn't anywhere include getting "rid Britain of non-white people" - that is just another lie. Not surprising that you like it so much!!!

2) We campaigned for residency, and of course gurkha's will have all the rights of residency. Joining a political party with a membership criteria is not a right. But then you know that, its just part of you warped little game.

3) The word "racist" was invented by Marxists in the 1930's to divide people. It means nothing. Love for your own people does not equate to hatred of others.

4) I agree with the policy; we still have Gurkha regiments because they are excellent and loyal soldiers, though of course, you wouldn't know that, being a duty shy coward. Gurkha regiments only really work, funnily enough, if they are staffed with just Gurkha's!!!! And like I said Bron's denied that charge in court, and given that you were not there, you cannot possibly know the truth what happened; and Bron's political history was made fully public ad naseaum to the people of the constituency he now represents by the orchestrated alliance of the media and all other parties, and guess what? People didn't care. They still voted for him in sufficient quantities to elect him to represent them, so you might want to rethink the value of this 'information.'

5) It is not in the least bit interesting The BNP's agenda is indigenous ethno-nationlism, just as your agenda is the destruction of Britain and all things decent.

6) The Gurkha will have residency and all the rights that come with it; you are just peddling more stupid lies like: "That on top of not letting them join a Part of their choice" - can you prove that even one Gurkha has the burning desire to join the BNP?

7) You have provided no such thing. You have linked to extreme left wing rags and called it evidence. And now you openly admit that you cannot prove your previous claims of the BNP "organising and promoting" violence "against ethnic communities, against Trade Unionists and so on" - that is because it is a lie. I have provided you with dozens and dozens of examples with that link of the establishment parties criminal activities, with the latest one being a Tory councillor being jailed for 8 years for raping a 13 year old girl!!! And need I remind you that this government has the murder of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and Afghanis on its hands, after an illegal war supported by Cameron?!!!

So just to make it clear, you now admit that you have no evidence for your previous lies:

1) In all reality, do you have even a scrap of evidence that the BNP has a secret army of “stormtroopers?”

2) Do you have one scrap of evidence of actual BNP violence?


And are unable to do the following:

3) Can you answer any of the other questions raised in this 'debate' instead of just cherry picking one element and then making a fool of yourself?

In addition:

4) And have done nothing whatsoever to help the Gurkha's, but do like to attack and criticise those who have.


Keep typing your lies, someone might be stupid enough believe them!!!!

The BNP have elected officals at all levels of governent in the UK (with an MP to come soon!) 2 MEP's and a million voters!!!

What do you have???!!!!!

Montreal said...

Sentinel,

You set up dogmatic laughable dangerously ignorant racist edicts such as Angles and Saxons are the only real English people and then try and tell us that non Anglo-Saxons wouldn't become second class citizens!
If the minority party the BNP were incredibly to gain mass popular support would the second policy be to swab everyone for DNA to determine their true ethnicity? (The first policy being, of course, the internment of Muslims).

To be fair Sentinel does have one fair point, all we get from the media in relation to the BNP is accusations but we are rarely allowed to hear them speak. I reckon putting Sentinel on prime time TV would see the BNP vote (as small as it is now) reduce considerably.

The Sentinel said...

Oh how sad Arthur, the usual extremist left recourse to sock puppets!!

I can see how your blog gains as little support as your silly ideas with even the most recent post attracting just an 'anonymous' comment and so the chances of anyone actually reading this thread and your consistent lies and cringe worthy demonstrations of you making a fool of yourself are slim to none.

And so my job here is done: Once more I have exposed you as the bankrupt, shallow, bitter, hateful old liar you really are.

Your absurd claims are merely rehashed propaganda - something even you have to admit when challenged for evidence - and your flimsy premises are as idiotic as they are childish.

Face it Arthur, your day and your say are all but over; it is a new world now, and one that is starting to open up its eyes to the horror and lies of the extreme left and the untenable position it has put us all in.

I would take pleasure in demolishing any further propaganda absurdities you decide to echo (in an empty room!) in threads, but given your readership I am not sure you even worth the effort of tapping a few keys.

You can pull your sock puppet in now!!!!

Boffy said...

1. The BNP openly state that they are in favour of “Voluntary Repatriation” of non-whites. They introduced that because they realised that their previous policy of forced repatriation was not popular, once again showing their hypocrisy and populism.

2. So what your policy amounts to is saying that you want to invite an unlimited number of Ghurkas and their families to come to Britain, and then when they are here you will encourage them all to go back again, and ask the British taxpayer to fund it!!!! Typical of the ridiculous policies of the BNP.

3. As for citizenship rights. The rights of British citizens and residents states that they shall not be discriminated against on the basis of race. By denying the Ghurkas the right to join the BNP because they are not white, you are discriminating against them clearly on the basis of race, and, therefore, denying them of the rights of a British Citizen or resident! You are treating them as a second class citizen! So much for your support and admiration of the Ghurkas!

4. Brons denied the charge in Court, but like me you were not their. The whole part of having a trial in Britain – you know that country you claim to like so much – is that those who were there give evidence, and the Court weighs the evidence and comes to a conclusion based on it. Having heard the evidence from those who were there the Court decided that whatever Brons claimed he was guilty. That you who were not there believe Brons rather than the evidence of people who were there and the decision of a BRITISH Court tells us all we need to know about your attitude to the truth, and to British institutions, and Britain.

5. You then claim I have admitted having no evidence of BNP violence, despite the fact that I have now provided three pieces of evidence of BNP members being CONVICTED not just of violence, but of racist violence!!!!!

6. In a previous discussion you told us that Black people should not be allowed into the country because some had been involved in Gang Rape. Well, according to this story so have BNP members.

” Robert Bennett. A leading activist in Oldham BNP during the 2002 elections campaign, Bennett has served five years in prison for the gang rape of a woman. He has also served seven years for armed robbery and has over 30 convictions in total.”

See: Uncovered , and just so you don’t simply say its some extreme Left-wing lie,

” Robert Bennett, a leading BNP activist in Oldham in the 2002 elections campaign, could better that. He had 30, including a conviction for gang rape.”

See: The Guardian .

If that story isn’t true, I challenge you to then sue the Guardian over it, or even just report them to the PPC.

So, will you now be consistent and demand that BNP members be expelled from the country, because some of them are gang rapists??? No, you won’t because just as with the Ghurkhas your politics are thoroughly hypocritical, illogical and populist.

7. As for your attack on Montreal your charge that he is just some puppet is a figment of your imagination, as a look at his previous posts will demonstrate. In any case coming from someone who doesn’t even have the balls to put their own name either on their posts here, or on their own website, and who frequently uses psuedonyms, your comments on that are as hypocritica as your position on the Ghurkhas.

Its clear that once again you’ve lost the argument, and your preparing to bottle out again. We won’t miss your contributions this time either.

The Sentinel said...

I am always good for an encore, just to quickly blow away the rest of your lies and absurdities:


1) There we go, you are starting to run of road on your own lies!!


Contrary to you own lies, the BNP does not have a policy of getting "rid Britain of non-white people" but does have a policy of voluntary repatriation - a scheme that has been around since the Heath government and is still in place today under your fascist comrades - so lets now hear your vitriol on them too. You notice the key words: voluntary, legal, official policy for decades?


2) Considering the above, this point is so ridiculous a 5 year old could refute it.


3) Again, so ludicrous even a 5 year could see through it. The BNP's policy of selective membership is perfectly legal and the BNP's agenda is indigenous ethno-nationlism.

And you are the only one who believes that the Gurkha regiments two hundred year history of bravery and loyalty should be disbanded as a racially exclusive organisation. You are the one attacking the Gurkha's and trying to deny them a valuable path out of poverty.


4) I was not there, and you were not there so you do not know the truth of what happened A magistrates court is the lowest court in the land where only the Clerk of the Court has any legal training. Moreover, they were called Police Courts not too long back and Bron's was accused of an offence against a police by a police. But seeing as you feel so able to work your way into such a paroxysm of righteous indignation, exactly what evidence was presented in the hearing?

The Sentinel said...

5) Exactly, and you have proved nothing. You claim, without a scrap of evidence that the BNP is "organising and promoting" violence "against ethnic communities, against Trade Unionists and so on" and that the BNP has a secret army of “stormtroopers!!!

But then you present some links to individuals who have convictions, not of the BNP - the BNP is a political party - "organising and promoting" violence "against ethnic communities, against Trade Unionists and so on" nor any evidence whatsoever to your equally ludicrous claim that the that the BNP has a secret army of “stormtroopers".

By the same token, that long list of establishment party officials linked to who were convicted of criminal offences represent their parties policies! That Tory councillor convicted and sentenced to 8 years in prison for raping a 13 year old girl is indicative of Tory policy and the Conservatives "organising and promoting" violence and rape against 13 year old girls!

That Dennis Nilsen, a member of the SWP and the serial murderer of at least 15 gay men, was representing the SWP and "organising and promoting" the murder of gay men for the SWP!!!

Is that what you seriously claim?


6) I provided evidence that 80% of the gang rape defendants in this country are black. I also provided evidence that the lions share of the worst crimes in London and the UK are committed by blacks - gang rape, shooting, stabbing etc. and I also provided evidence that the lions share of the worst kinds of crimes in Northern Europe are committed by non-whites, and that that trend is now showing in Australia too.

You couldn't deny the evidence so you just played the stupid warped games that you are known for playing.

And here is a woolly headed leftist today, finally sick of PC and speaking the truth about blacks being responsible for the majority of the worst crimes and that white-on-black violence is rare and white-on-asian violence is even rarer.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/rod_liddle/article6493294.ece

And yes, it is quite obvious that if the worst crimes a society faces are demonstrably and consistently dominated by identifiable groups of people - and it is not just here but across many, many countries all over the world — that we DO NOT HAVE to let in, then we SHOULD NOT let them in. Logic, pure and simple.

But just to demonstrate your confused poisonous thinking you start off with "people should not be allowed into the country" and end with "So, will you now be consistent and demand that BNP members be expelled from the country" - do you even know the difference between exclusion and expulsion??!!!


7) I think it is obvious - not just from the evident complete lack of public interest in your blog and the unlikeness that anyone would even notice this 'debate' - but from the semantic style that it is a sock puppet! Certainly the extreme left are well known for it and always allow anonymous and non-ID postings for that reason. Honest blogs bar them.

But the fact that you think you are brave by putting your name to a blog post when you are clearly a whimpering coward who couldn't face the danger of serving his country is hilarious!

How many prostitutes and porn stars also share your egotistical desire for attention and post their names?

Who I am is none of your business unless I decide to stand for public office - and I am considering just that - and I 'sign' every post I make with my online identify - never with pseudonyms as your typical projectionist claim runs. What would be the point anyway?!!

It is clear that once again you have lost the argument, but it is also clear that not even a single soul is watching this and so you are just a waste of time and energy.

Good luck pushing out your next dirrareha of lies and forcing up the bile you call reason to an empty audience!!!

The Sentinel said...

Full link for above article:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/rod_liddle/article6493294.ece

Boffy said...

1) So you admit that the BNP is in favour of Voluntary Repatriation. Not only are you in favour of it, but you would encourage it, which none of the other parties do. Of course, given the BNP's history of violence against ethnic minorities, and your glorification of Hitler's similar policy of racial violence against Jews we know exactly what form that encouragement would take!!!

2. So having encouraged an unlimited number of Ghurkas and their families to come to Britain, not only would you tell them that however, hard they worked, however, brave they were in fighting for Britain, however much they loved Britain and saw it as their country, in the eyes of the BNP they would not be British, because as you have told us above only genetically pure "Anlgo-Saxons" and Celts are British!!!!

And having reduced them to second class citizens and made it abundantly clear that they had no place in your pure white Britain, you would then encourage them all to go back home and ask British taxpayers to pay for your fiasco!!!!

3. I have not said that I oppose Ghurkas coming to this country as a means of getting out of poverty or for any other reason they might wish to come to this country. On the contrary I welcome Ghurkas to this country the same as any other worker who wants to make a better life for themselves.

But, in that case, if you support that right for Gghurkas, should you not then support that right for every otehr worker wanting a "route out of poverty"???? And what about all of those Indians, and other nationalities who have served Britain in times of War. Should they also not have the same right to come to Britain along with their families and relations the same as the Ghurkas??

4. On Brons. I was not there and nor were you, so as I said the only rational course is to take the conclusion of the Court based on the evidence of those who were. For someone, who claims to love Britain so much we see once again your hypocrisy, because there actually seems to be very little of Britain you like or will accept.

Now not only to you show that you despise BRITISH justice and the BRITISH Court system, but clearly you do not like BRITISH police either!!!! We know that you do not even consider the vast majority of British people to be British, and on a previous occasion you have told us that you even spend a quarter of the year outside Britain in the Canaries. Hardly the actions of a true patriot would you say?

Boffy said...

As for all the evidence about the BNP and organised violence, the point is that these were not just a few people, but were leading members of the Party!

I I were a member of a Party that had a member that was guilty of gang rape, or other violent crimes I would vote for their immediate expulsion. So, the question is given that you see Gang Rape as such a serious crime, will you campaign for the expulsion of all members of the BNP who are convicted of any violent crime? A simple answer Yes, or No will do!

CharlieMcMenamin said...

Oh deary me, Senteniel. Shouldn't you be out building the master race or something? Or at least finding someone a little more credible that Rod Liddle to quote as an authority.

You might want to pop over here http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs/hors223.pdf to check just how dastardly our 'fascist' government behaves. Not only has it produced a long and detailed report on the experience of crime and policing by different ethnic groups it has gone so far as to fake whole statistical tables in the appendix which almost uniformly show that, however you cut the cake, black and Asian people are more likely to be victims of crime than white people. Pure propaganda you might say - but my, what attention to detail....

"Whilst people from ethnic minorities are no more at risk of violent crime than others, they are much more likely to perceive a racial dimension in the crimes they experience.
* Most of the differences in risk reflect variations in the demographic profile of different groups, such as area of residence, age, social class and income. However, after controlling for other factors, Indians are more at risk of burglary.
* Overall the results do not suggest substantial over-representation of ethnic
minorities amongst offenders, though it points to black over-representation amongst muggers. The risk of being mugged is around three times higher for minority ethnic groups than for white groups."

The Sentinel said...

You do make it so easy Arthur.

1) It has been official government policy for decades, and yes the BNP will encourage it. In fact the late Bernie Grant encouraged it and said many of his ethnic constituents wanted to go home:


"THE Government and the Opposition distanced themselves yesterday from the suggestion by Bernie Grant, the black Labour MP, that ethnic minorities should be helped financially to return to their country of origin..."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/grant-isolated-over-repatriation-parties-distance-themselves-from-black-mps-comments-will-bennett-and-colin-brown-report-1509086.html



Which was rather hypocritical of them considering the Tories come up with the policy and Labour still has it to this day. But then they are nothing if not consistently hypocritical. And nor are you.

Here is the link for the full text of Bernie Grants speech in Parliament to educate you a little:



"As I have already said the Caribbean, and possibly other interested countries, would welcome a resettlement programme. The region has for many years now been the subject of a brain drain..."

http://www.arm.arc.co.uk/speech.html



Was Bernie Grant a racist?



2) Just a rehash of your previous twisted gibberish. I support residency and not citizenship as did the BNP; they would be residents with all the rights and protection that goes with it.



3) You oppose the Gurkha regiments very existence! An attack on them they would despise. Their route out of poverty is not a free ticket to a better country but a hard earned place in a professional army, something they are very, very proud of and have been for 200 years - and you want to stop it because of your prejudices.

The additional benefits of residency are hard earned by them and come at a very high price indeed.

And no, we don't owe the vast bulk of the Indians anything.

I know your grasp on history is tenuous at best, but India was under direct threat from Japan, and I see you don't mention the substantial numbers of Indians who served Hitler instead.

It was a mixture of poverty, compulsion, politics and self interest that led to them to the ranks officered by Britain and that all dissolved at the end of the war.

Wheras we have has a special covenant with the Gurkha's for two hundred years, through war and peace, thick and thin.



4) Another ridiculous rehash - the police in this country are now effectively nothing more then a PC junta and the courts have always served the rich and connected. You say that I "believe Brons rather than the evidence of people who were there" and are implying you have intimate knowledge of the hearing, so tell me, what evidence was presented? Was it just the word of one police against the word of a previously unconvicted man - a man who never faced another charge since and has lived for 62 years so far?!!

The Sentinel said...

And as for the rest, it is nice to see that even you run out of road on your lies and now accept that you have no evidence whatsoever to support your absurd contention that the British National Party has / is "organising and promoting" violence "against ethnic communities, against Trade Unionists and so on" and that the BNP has a secret army of “stormtroopers. Like I have offered repeatedly, you come up with some real evidence that that political party has done these things and I will take it to the police myself.

As for me being in the Canary Islands for around a quater of the year, that is because I own property there and have business interests there, and other places so your silly, pathetic and typically desperate little jibe is funny as it is shallow. Do you apply that argument to soldiers too??!!!

I also travel a lot because I am a highly qualified and sought after professional and that's part of the career - the lions share of my tax is paid in Great Britain, my home is in Great Britain - my ancestral homeland and the country I risked my life in service of and will fight for until my last breath.

Lastly, I will be happy to give you a simple yes or no when you do the same for me:

Do you agree that all of the evidence as I have made you aware of, and that even leftists like Liddle now comment on, shows that ethnic minorities — specifically blacks in the UK - are responsible for the recorded majority worst types of crime i.e rape, gang rape, stabbings and shootings in the areas for which that evidence has been presented: i.e UK, Denmark, Sweden and Norway?

Yes or No.

Montreal said...

Sentinel you really are a low life racist scum bucket.

If you look at the crime statistics for the world then your thesis, that black people are somehow more criminally minded than white does not hold up. For rape crimes Australia comes third in the rapes per capita by country league table. Hardly a country known for its open immigration policy. The table also highlights that race really is not the issue as countries from every continent appear in the top 30 and many of those are European.

Those not of the demented racist mindset that the Sentinel possesses consider a wide range of social and economic factors at play.

But I am sure you won't let facts get in the way of your idiotic ideology, been as irrationality and stupidity are its main pre requisites.

The Sentinel said...

Oh look Arthur, a difficult question and the sock puppets out again!!

And it is very, very wrong.

In fact it is a "a low life racist scum bucket" that hates the truth and its white victims.


Here are the real facts:

In the UK it was leaked that 73% of those charged with knife crime were non-white (whist the victims made up the largest group) Over 70 per cent of London’s gun suspects were black, as were 50 per cent of the victims white. In 80% of gang rape cases, the defendants were black. There are five times more young blacks in prison then whites.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1036833/Over-half-young-knife-suspects-black-Scotland-Yard-figures-reveal.html

http://www.itv.com/PressCentre/InTheLineOfFire/Ep1Wk07/default.html

http://www.newstatesman.com/199811200011

http://www.bbc.co.uk/1xtra/tx/black_crime.shtml


In Denmark non-whites committed 68% of all rapes, and it was revealed that non-whites were over-represented in all crime by an average of 46% and in Copenhagen 47.5% of prisoners on remand for serious crimes were non-white. In Norway it was found that two out of three charged with rape in Oslo were non-white, whilst in Sweden it as found that a rapist was four times more likely to have been born abroad – with Algeria, Libya, Morocco and Tunisia dominating the group of rape suspects and that non-whites were responsible for 25% of all crime in Sweden A survey in Australia found that in Melbourne magistrate’s courts, offenders from the horn of Africa and the Middle East were 20 times the representative proportion of their population…

http://www.cphpost.dk/news/1-latest-news/27877.html

http://www.cphpost.dk/news/1-latest-news/28210.html

http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article190268.ece

http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article327666.ab

http://www.thelocal.se/2683/20051214/

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,,21166482-661,00.html


And I have held off on the US...

So go on, give us the usual poverty excuse!!

And it is total crap.

Denmark, Norway and Sweden didn't have "ghettos" until very recently, and they are not areas of actual poverty but voluntary enclaves of ethnicity. The Nordic bloc never imported foreign workers to make up a deficit, all of their immigration has come from purely "humanitarian" motivation and they have been well looked after.

In the UK as well, not only do non-whites have laws that discriminate in their favour for employment along with race quotas everyone has equal access to social security, and so in the worst case, the poorest non-white is as poor as the poorest white.

Your excuses do not hold water.

And since when was rape and gang rape a crime of "poverty?"


And so again Arthur, from your ID this time, yes or no?

Boffy said...

"As for me being in the Canary Islands for around a quater of the year, that is because I own property there and have business interests there, and other places so your silly, pathetic and typically desperate little jibe is funny as it is shallow. Do you apply that argument to soldiers too??!!!"...

How very, very patrioptic of you!!!! So you could invest your Capital and provide "British Jobs for British Workers", but instead you invest your Capital in Africa providing work for Canarians, and other parts of the world!!!!!!

The level of your hypocrisy ought to be astounding except that this kind of hypocrisy is the hallmark of fascism. Say one thing do the opposite.

No wonder the workers at the Lyndsey Oil Refinery sent you lot packing when you tried to intervene in their strike. They know as you have shown here that your claim to support the interests of workers is nothing but lies and hypocrisy. Not only agents of the bosses, but often bosses yourselves, not interested in British workers but simply like any Capitalist investing your Capital anywhere in the world where you can make a quick buck.

Your hypocrisy is if anything only exceeded by your idiocy in exposing it!

As for your response to Montreal, it is upt to him or her to respond to you not me. I hav better things to do trying to do whatever I can to support the Iranian workers in fighting their own fascist government.

The Sentinel said...

Oh God you really are hilarious 'Boffy'!!

You are so full of it, it must dribble out of your nose!!!

What in the hell do you really think you can do for the "Iranian workers"!!! You are so deluded it is unhealthy!!!

And you've already been told 'boffy' this is not a communist uprising but a protest very much like the one '99 and '03 - and guess what? It started out of a university - not a factory!!!

And by God 'boffy', you are a really ignorant little man!!

The Canary Islands are a part of Spain and a part of the EU - not even remotely African!

I really suggest you get yourself an education first Arthur, and leave politics to those that understand it!!

And actually I employ mainly Britons in the Canaries and there is a sound business reason as to why the particular business is abroad!! I also own property and have businesses interests in my own country too!!! Not that its any of your business!! And I look after my employees very well, thanks.

But of course all of this is a distraction from your inability to answer any of the questions raised, and especially that very difficult yes or no, one.

Better get your sock puppet back out Arthur!!!!

Boffy said...

What a moron you really are. The Canaries are not a part of Spain they are Spanish TERRITORIES! But, more to the point whatever their legal definition geographiclly they are in AFRICA. In fact, they are approximately 50 miles off the African Coast adjacent to the Sahara Desert!!!!

Either way, you show your hypocrisy. You tell British worekrs you are in favour of "British Jobs For British Workers", and all the time you are investing in Africa and other parts of the world. What a total hypocrit you really are. As for employing mainly British people there isn't that even worse???? What do you think of such people who do not follow the BNP policy of sticking to their own country, and working in their own country rather than taking jobs away from the workers of the host country???? Even more BNP and Sentinel hypocrisy.

And, however, you try to cover it up, the fact of your investment there is taking jobs away from British workers HERE - you know the palce you keep telling us you want to defend and all the other crap!!! All the money you spend in the Canaries, all the money your workers in the Canaries spend goess to the Canaries not to Britain. As a patriot you should be ashamed of yourself for betraying your country in such a way.

but, of course, you are not because its all hypocrisy. Like every other Capitalist you are not interested in British or any other workers you are only interested in making money. You don't give a shit about Britain or British workers.


Nor clearly do you give a shit about BRITISH institutions such as BRITISH justice, BRITISH Police, or BRITISH Courts. You will not accept their decisions, freely arrived at, and instead prefer to take the word of a Hitler worshipper like Brons, and no doubt of all those other BNP members convicted not just once but scores of times for crimes of violence, inlcuding your favourite crime of hate - gang rape.

As I said, since when have you or any fascist been interested in facts or evidence.

CharlieMcMenamin said...

Hey Sentinel - I'm no sock puppet, I'm a plasticine man. Go look



Oh and BTW - your crime statistics are either just wrong, inaccurately sourced, unverified or simply willfully misleading. All of them, without exception. Perhaps you've spending too long in the sun in the Canaries and getting a bit befuddled? Just you remember to whack on the sun screen, mind. Wouldn't want you developing so deep a tan they won't let you into BNP party meetings now would we?

Boffy said...

Charlie,

Sentinel has trouble with any intellectual discipline. In a previous discussion he showed he couldn't tell the differrence between 80% of gang rapes being committed by black men (his figures, which again were wrong!), and 80% of black men being guilty of gang rape!!!!

But, now when members of the BNP are convicted of gang rape, he doesn't seem to think its a big problem anyway, he seems happy to belong to a party full of rapists, and other such people. I take it he has some accountant to do all the figures of his business for him, as he's clearly not capable himself.

No doubt, he pays all these workers the same as himself though, because BNP Capitalists are defenders of the workers don't you know!

Boffy said...

What Continet are the Canaries a part of? Any school child should know the answer to this question. You would think that a BNP capitalist who exploits workers there would certainly know, but clearly you don't, though as normal you present your monumental ignorance as though you werre the font of all knowledge!

Here's teh answer for you.

The Canary Islands are on the African tectonic plate, and given their proximity to Africa they are most definitely in Africa

The Sentinel said...

Oh you lot are priceless!!! Hilarious! You really are!!

Montreal is Arthur's sock puppet and Charlie is Arthur's call-a-friend muppet!!

And how hard you have to tried to get out of the yes and no question! And every other single point you have been demolished on!!!

You cry like little girls that the BNP have been so successful but totally fail to understand why, and your idiotic contribution to it - deluded bold faced liars to a man and woman!!


"In a previous discussion he showed he couldn't tell the differrence between 80% of gang rapes being committed by black men (his figures, which again were wrong!)"

You had the confusion old chap, and the figures are not mine at all, they come from an article by the famous black activist Darcus Howe!!!! And he got them from research!!!!


"But, now when members of the BNP are convicted of gang rape"

And a mass murderer of homosexuals, at least 15, Dennis Nilson was a member of the SWP!!!


"No doubt, he pays all these workers the same as himself though"

And no doubt you took the same wage as the cleaner wherever you worked!!


"What Continet are the Canaries a part of?"

What continent (notice the spelling) are the Falkland Islands on? Are they still British? Yes! What about Hawaii...

You claim I invest "Capital in Africa" when clearly it I invested capital in Span and part of the EU - nothing to do with Africa whatsoever; when you are shown up as an ignorant fool you make it even worse by goggling the continental plate it sits on!!!

Clearly you have no ideas of the subtleties of geography!! Nor what a political map is!!

Russia for instance sits on two continents, but it wouldn't matter if you, lived on, paid tax , etc. on one in Minsk or on the other in Vladivostok, you would still be in Russia!!!

Starting to see how it all works? And how, if any was remotely interested in your blog, what a giant idiot you make of yourself?


"BNP policy of sticking to their own country, and working in their own country"

BNP policy doesn't actually state that at all, its another of your lies and in any case BNP policy only applies to the UK - other countries are free to do as they please.


"And, however, you try to cover it up, the fact of your investment there is taking jobs away from British workers HERE"

And you call yourself an economist?!!!

Those jobs only exits because I created them!!! And I have created more in the UK!!!

The Sentinel said...

"All the money you spend in the Canaries, all the money your workers in the Canaries spend goes to the Canaries not to Britain"

What crap - it goes into the EU of which we are still a part.

And what about people who go on holiday? Or youngster on working holidays? Or medical volunteers abroad? Or soliders serving?


"As a patriot"

You were too cowardly - too afraid - to serve your country and you have spent your life trying to destory it. You don't even know the meaning of the word.


"You would think that a BNP capitalist who exploits workers there"

Exploits them by employing them!! You muppet!!!


"As I said, since when have you or any fascist been interested in facts or evidence."

You are so deluded you really do need help 'boffy' - you cannot prove even one of your ludicrous rants and wild claims!!

And immediately after that statement we get this from Charlie:


"Oh and BTW - your crime statistics are either just wrong, inaccurately sourced, unverified or simply willfully misleading. All of them, without exception."

Which kind of proves that your last statement is just more projection 'boffy'!!!

Not only does this fool not even know why he thinks they are wrong - presumably because this fool has not even read them - and not only does this fool not provide a scrap of evidence to prove it, but this fool fails to understand that just the first one came from a famous black activist - Darcus Howe - and all of the rest are documented fact and in the mainstream media; some were even leaked as governments tried to suppress them.

And even one of your own leftist idiots, Liddle, has finally become sick of dancing around the obvious:

"The truth is, violent white-on-black crime is a rarity in Britain, by comparison – although white-on-Asian crime is rather less so. The overwhelming bulk of violent street crime in London is committed by young black men, and in numerous cases against white people,

At most, the African Caribbean population of London is about 12% of the whole. But black males are responsible for nearly 60% of arrests for robbery – and the overwhelming majority of gun crime..."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/rod_liddle/article6493294.ece


And even the most PC PM we have ever had, had this to say:

"Tony Blair yesterday claimed the spate of knife and gun murders in London was not being caused by poverty, but a distinctive black culture...

He said people had to drop their political correctness and recognise that the violence would not be stopped "by pretending it is not young black kids doing it"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2007/apr/12/ukcrime.race


You think he just might have been better placed then most to know the facts? And given his political bent it must have been atrocious for him to even dare to speak out!!!

They are all facts all right - choke on them!!!

The Sentinel said...

Once again, you have embarrassed yourself and shown what a completely idiotic and immoral liar you and your ilk are.

And that is why the BNP are getting a helping hand to power by deluded and dishonest fools like you and your refusal to visit the real world even occasionally.

Here are those figures again for your perusal and shame you racist:


In the UK it was leaked that 73% of those charged with knife crime were non-white (whist white victims made up the largest group) Over 70 per cent of London’s gun suspects were black, as were 50 per cent of the victims white. In 80% of gang rape cases, the defendants were black. There are five times more young blacks in prison then whites.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1036833/Over-half-young-knife-suspects-black-Scotland-Yard-figures-reveal.html

http://www.itv.com/PressCentre/InTheLineOfFire/Ep1Wk07/default.html

http://www.newstatesman.com/199811200011

http://www.bbc.co.uk/1xtra/tx/black_crime.shtml


In Denmark non-whites committed 68% of all rapes, and it was revealed that non-whites were over-represented in all crime by an average of 46% and in Copenhagen 47.5% of prisoners on remand for serious crimes were non-white. In Norway it was found that two out of three charged with rape in Oslo were non-white, whilst in Sweden it as found that a rapist was four times more likely to have been born abroad – with Algeria, Libya, Morocco and Tunisia dominating the group of rape suspects and that non-whites were responsible for 25% of all crime in Sweden A survey in Australia found that in Melbourne magistrate’s courts, offenders from the horn of Africa and the Middle East were 20 times the representative proportion of their population…

http://www.cphpost.dk/news/1-latest-news/27877.html

http://www.cphpost.dk/news/1-latest-news/28210.html

http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article190268.ece

http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article327666.ab

http://www.thelocal.se/2683/20051214/

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,,21166482-661,00.html

Boffy said...

1.Here is what you actually said about black people and gang rapes.

You asked, "What proportion of black people do these defendants constitute" to which you then immediately replied “And the answer is the proportion of black people these defendants constitute is 80%.”...

Demonstrating what a completely stupid person you really are. Its all on there on the debate on Phil’s site for everyone to see.

2 So, what you now want to claim that the Falklands are IN, a part of Britain????? What a moron you really are. I said you invested in Africa. You did the Canaries are IN Africa. But, even were they not, how does you investing in Spain change your hypocrisy it is still not investing IN Britain is it? You are not part of the Spanish National Party are you? You do not campaign for “British Jobs for Spanish workers” do you? Your hypocrisy grows with every statement you produce, not to mention your idiocy!

3. “Those jobs only exits because I created them!!! And I have created more in the UK!!!” Precisely, they exist in the Canaries, and not in Britain, and thereby demonstrate just how scant is your real patriotism, how hypocritical is your claim to defend British workers, rather than looking after your own pocket, how hypocritical is your calls for “British Jobs for British Workers”!!

4.” What crap - it goes into the EU of which we are still a part.”

Oh right so you have now become not BRITISH Nationalists but EU Nationalists. When did you change the slogan from “British Jobs for British Workers” to “EU Jobs for EU Workers” then? When did the BNP become an advocate rather than an opponent of the EU?

5. “Exploits them by employing them!! You muppet!!!” Exactly!!!! You claim to be a party that defends workers interests against bosses, despite being an exploiting Capitalist yourself!!!!! A fact, that rather makes your claims about the BNP not being the agents rather laughable! But, if you don’t exploit those workers, do you then pay them the same as you pay yourself? Do you share your profits equally with your workers?

6. For all the bogus statistics you give about crime rates and so on, the simple fact remains that in terms of convictions for violent crime the BNP would take some beating. From its highest echelons to the lowest morons of the rank and file it is made up of thugs and low lifes as the facts show. Yet, you will not commit yourself to even calling for the expulsion of people found guilty of gang rape, or other such crimes. You can’t because your Party would have no one left.

The Sentinel said...

1) You are such a deluded lying fool you just don't get it - I didn't say 80% of defendants in gang rape trials in the UK were black - the famous black activist Darcus Howe did, and he did so on the back of research that proved it!!!

You stupid, stupid, dishonest little man.


2) Yet another stupid lie - I actually said "What continent (notice the spelling) are the Falkland Islands on? Are they still British? Yes!" and not any of it is any of your business at all - and given that you are a "capitalist" investor yourself you are in a glass house anyhow - but most of my investment IS in Britain and British people and there are sound business reasons as to why the business is in the Canary Islands and those reasons benefit more British people!!

But in any case I do not subscribe to your hateful marxist antif-freedom theories and do business wherever and whenever I so choose, and with whoever I choose.

And the Canary islands are not IN Africa, they are islands next to and they are owned by the Spanish and so any investment there is an investment in Spain - not Africa you stupid, stupid, little man.


3) You stupid, stupid little man, you have already been told that I employ British people in the UK and the Canary islands and I am able to employ more because of my investment elsewhere. And it is none of your business at all - it is just another stupid distraction form all of the above points that you have been DEMOLISHED on.


4) I am not "the BNP" you stupid stupid little man. And in any case, nowhere does BNP policy discourage business anywhere.


5) Again, you stupid, stupid little man I am "not the BNP" and what I pay people is none of your business at all and I don't subscribe you idiotic hateful anti-freedom theories - and is just another inane attempt to distract away from the fact that you have been DEMOLISHED on every point above.

Besides you are a capitalist yourself and refuse to answer if you took the same wage as the cleaner in every corporation you worked for. Funny that.


6) If you say these figure are bogus then PROVE it - because a black activist Darcus Howe says that they are not; a leftist like Liddle says they are not; Tony Blair says they are not; governments who initially tried to hide the figures say they are not; mainstream media say they are not!!!

In fact all the verifiable evidence says they are NOT!!!!


It is just deluded fanatics like you who cannot stand the truth and cannot produce ANY evidence for their absurd claims whatsoever that think that facts they dot like will go away and people will not believe them because just they WANT them to - not through any actual EVIDENCE.

And as has been carefully explained to you many times, people know them to be true and want something done about it - and idiots like you with your obvious lies and political fanaticism drive ordinary people further and further into the arms of the BNP.

Which is why the BNP have many elected representatives at all levels of government - with MP's to come soon and you have, what exactly??

And why? Could it because you cant tell the truth on anything and want to completely control people?

And as for criminals in all parties, let alone the extreme left there are dozens and dozens below; nonce's, rapists, racists, thugs...

http://liarsbuggersandthieves.blogspot.com/

So go ahead and condemn all of them too!!!!!

The Sentinel said...

So go ahead, and prove your international conspiracy theory and PROVE that these figures are false!


In the UK it was leaked that 73% of those charged with knife crime were non-white (whist white victims made up the largest group) Over 70 per cent of London’s gun suspects were black, as were 50 per cent of the victims white. In 80% of gang rape cases, the defendants were black. There are five times more young blacks in prison then whites.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1036833/Over-half-young-knife-suspects-black-Scotland-Yard-figures-reveal.html

http://www.itv.com/PressCentre/InTheLineOfFire/Ep1Wk07/default.html

http://www.newstatesman.com/199811200011

http://www.bbc.co.uk/1xtra/tx/black_crime.shtml


In Denmark non-whites committed 68% of all rapes, and it was revealed that non-whites were over-represented in all crime by an average of 46% and in Copenhagen 47.5% of prisoners on remand for serious crimes were non-white. In Norway it was found that two out of three charged with rape in Oslo were non-white, whilst in Sweden it as found that a rapist was four times more likely to have been born abroad – with Algeria, Libya, Morocco and Tunisia dominating the group of rape suspects and that non-whites were responsible for 25% of all crime in Sweden A survey in Australia found that in Melbourne magistrate’s courts, offenders from the horn of Africa and the Middle East were 20 times the representative proportion of their population…

http://www.cphpost.dk/news/1-latest-news/27877.html

http://www.cphpost.dk/news/1-latest-news/28210.html

http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article190268.ece

http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article327666.ab

http://www.thelocal.se/2683/20051214/

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,,21166482-661,00.html

Montreal said...

Sentinel,

All anyone of sound mind has to do is look back at my previous correspondence on this blog to arrive at the conclusion that I am no puppet. You, being of unsound mind, can carry on thinking whatever you like.

Here are just a few facts to put crime in a social/economic context in the hope that I can stretch your feeble mind beyond its pathetic race obsessed limits.

An examination of the employment status of convicted offenders suggests that over 80% are from the manual classes. A study of persistent young offenders found that only 8% came from middle class backgrounds. Offences are also distinguishable by social class. Middle class offenders tend to be associated with white collar crime, fraud and tax evasion, whilst working class offenders are found guilty of burglary and street crime.

In 2006, 1.4 million offenders were sentenced for criminal offences in England and Wale. The majority of these offenders, 80%, were male.

Crimes by region stats suggest that areas deemed deprived by the European union and recipients of regeneration funding had higher crime rates than more affluent areas. This was the case whether those areas had large immigrant populations or not.
Areas with higher unemployment were found to have higher crime rates than those with lower unemployment, even when comparing large urban areas with each other.

Current crime figures show that,

Total recorded crime is down 2%
Domestic Burglary down 3%
Sexual offences down 7%
Violence against the person down 1%
Robbery up 3%

Can these trends be linked to innate racial characteristics in any way, did the black population go down during this period?

Just afew stats on wealth to put this in some context,

The wealthiest 1% owned approximately a fifth of the UK's marketable weatlh in 2003. In contrast, half the population shared only 7% of total wealth. The results are even more skewed if housing is excluded from the estimates.

We won’t even get into a debate about the crimes committed in Iraq or by your friends the Nazi’s or the crimes of big business because you would clearly be incapable of comprehending such concepts.

You claim Mr Bough is Anti freedom, while advocating to DNA test us all for ethnicity, you want to round up ethnic minorities and judging by your views on crime, you must want to impose curfews or tagging or worse against Blacks, Asians and whoever else your moronic logic extends to.
The BNP are forever telling us that Muslims are having more children than whites, so presumably you would want to sterilize all Muslims or more likely you would force white people to have babies, possibly by enslaving women.
If this is freedom god help us!

All your comments suggest that the worst fears concerning the BNP are not leftist propaganda but an actual under exaggeration of the truth.

And finally…You have made my week by revealing that Rod Liddle is the source of all your wisdom, so a big thanks for that. Maybe you could write to him, that would be beautiful.

The Sentinel said...

Oh come on Arthur, another difficult question and back comes 'montreal'!! And the semantic style is exactly the same as yours!!!

SOCK PUPPET!!!

It is a popular device for lonely extremists like you 'boffy'!

And it is just as full of it as you are!!

To put it into context:

In the UK and (and Northern Europe as well) not only do non-whites have laws that discriminate in their favour for employment along with race quotas but everyone has equal access to social security, and so in the worst case, the poorest non-white is as poor as the poorest white.

And Denmark, Norway and Sweden didn't have "ghettos" until very recently, and they are not areas of actual poverty but voluntary enclaves of ethnicity. The Nordic bloc never imported foreign workers to make up a deficit, all of their immigration has come from purely "humanitarian" motivation and they have been well looked after.

Your excuses do not hold water.

And since when was rape and gang rape a crime of "poverty?"


And so when we see that these countries crime rates are absolutely dominated by non-whites we see a trend and we see a problem. And they are absolutely dominated by non-whites: In the UK it is blacks that top the bill, in Northern Europe mostly North Africans, Somalians and Arabs - reason being that they concentrated on importing their criminals from those areas whereas the UK has imported its criminals primarily from the Caribbean and Africa, with a good measure of Asia too.

The crime figures are facts and your excuses are just rubbish.

Have a guess who massively dominates the crime rate in the US? Who comes second? And who the majority of the victims are?

Go ahead...


"We won’t even get into a debate about the crimes committed in Iraq or by your friends the Nazi’s or the crimes of big business"

1) What has Iraq to do with this 'debate' or me? It was your so-called Labour party that lied to wage aggressive war that most, including me, were opposed to.

2) I wasn't born until long after the war so I have never had any "Nazi friends" real or imagined. But why not talk about your socialist friends who have murdered over 110,000,000 people and imprisoned and tortured many, many more? Lets talk about Genrikh Yagoda who alone organised the murder of 10 million , shall we?

3) Big business - go ahead. Do they go out mugging, stabbing, shooting and gang raping?


"You claim Mr Bough is Anti freedom"

And a violent racist who is openly gleeful of any violence that he deems 'revolutionary' and hates the Gurkha's so much he wants to disband them and stop them earning entry to the UK.


"while advocating to DNA test us all for ethnicity"

Typically, a COMPLETE HYSTERICAL, BASELESS LIE!!!

Do you have even one shred of evidence for your latest extraordinary claim?

Not likely seeing as you haven't got any for the others!!!


"you want to round up ethnic minorities and judging by your views on crime, you must want to impose curfews or tagging or worse against Blacks, Asians and whoever else your moronic logic extends to."

Typically, a COMPLETE HYSTERICAL, BASELESS LIE!!!

Do you have even one shred of evidence for your latest latest extraordinary claim?



"The BNP are forever telling us that Muslims are having more children than whites, so presumably you would want to sterilize all Muslims or more likely you would force white people to have babies, possibly by enslaving women."

UTTERLY FANTASTIC!!!

ANOTHER COMPLETELY HYSTERICAL, BASELESS LIE!!!

WHERE DO YOU PULL SUCH CRAZY RUBBISH OUT OF!! I think I know!!!

Care to share your evidence for this?!!!!!



"And finally…You have made my week by revealing that Rod Liddle is the source of all your wisdom"


And you end just how you started. With stupid lies that even your own could only swallow politely!!!

Liddle is one link of dozens!!!! One!!!

But that is you and your ilk all over: Dishonest, untrustworthy, lying traitors.

That is why the BNP are rising and you have NOTHING but your own bile and empty BULLSHIT!!!

The Sentinel said...

These is the real face of crime:

In the UK it was leaked that 73% of those charged with knife crime were non-white (whist white victims made up the largest group) Over 70 per cent of London’s gun suspects were black, as were 50 per cent of the victims white. In 80% of gang rape cases, the defendants were black. There are five times more young blacks in prison then whites.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1036833/Over-half-young-knife-suspects-black-Scotland-Yard-figures-reveal.html

http://www.itv.com/PressCentre/InTheLineOfFire/Ep1Wk07/default.html

http://www.newstatesman.com/199811200011

http://www.bbc.co.uk/1xtra/tx/black_crime.shtml


In Denmark non-whites committed 68% of all rapes, and it was revealed that non-whites were over-represented in all crime by an average of 46% and in Copenhagen 47.5% of prisoners on remand for serious crimes were non-white. In Norway it was found that two out of three charged with rape in Oslo were non-white, whilst in Sweden it as found that a rapist was four times more likely to have been born abroad – with Algeria, Libya, Morocco and Tunisia dominating the group of rape suspects and that non-whites were responsible for 25% of all crime in Sweden A survey in Australia found that in Melbourne magistrate’s courts, offenders from the horn of Africa and the Middle East were 20 times the representative proportion of their population…

http://www.cphpost.dk/news/1-latest-news/27877.html

http://www.cphpost.dk/news/1-latest-news/28210.html

http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article190268.ece

http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article327666.ab

http://www.thelocal.se/2683/20051214/

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,,21166482-661,00.html

Boffy said...

Sentinel,

Once again you resort to pages of spam to hide the paucity of your argument. The fact that you are prepared to embarrass yourself by resorting to the kind of absurdities that a five year old uses once they have lost an argument such as your ridiculous statement that the Canaries are not “in” Africa, but off the coast of Africa (nah,nah, nah, nah) as a means of diverting attention from the substantive point shows just how desperate you are not to defend yourself.

The same is true with your attempt to misrepresent the argument over the 80% figure for gang rapes. The point is that I don’t care WHO made THAT claim, the point is that it is not the same as your assertion drawn from it that 80% of black people have been involved in gang rape. Those are two quite different statements as any rational person knows. Yet even now you conflate the two. Either you are the stupidest person I have ever come across, or again it shows how desperate you are to divert discussion with such spam that again you are prepared to embarrass yourself with such statements to do so.

Either way, you have totally exposed yourself and your method with those kinds of arguments. As far as I’m concerned they are closed. If you want to embarrass yourself further, knock yourself out.

Boffy said...

The substantive points are.

1. You claim to be a British Nationalist yet not only do you spend a large proportion of the year outside Britain, but you have established businesses outside Britain, thereby according to BNP logic denying British workers of jobs. Your position is hypocritical.

2. You now try to defend yourself by saying that these businesses are in the EU. But, the BNP OPPOSES the EU, it is as opposed to jobs going to workers in the EU rather than Britain, as it is to those jobs going to any other country! Your position is hypocritical.

3. You claim to support the right of the Ghurkhas and their families to come to Britain. But, a leading member of your party was convicted for describing a British policemen of Asian descent as “an inferior being”. Yet more hypocrisy.

4. You say that you are in favour of an unlimited number of Ghurkhas and their families coming to Britain (which is good), but the policy of your Party is to OPPOSE ANY further immigration of non-whites into Britain. Hypocritical.

5. You say you are in favour of favour of an unlimited number of Ghurkhas and their families coming to Britain (which is good), but the policy of your Party is to encourage voluntary repatriation of non-whites, which would mean telling all these Ghurkhas when they got here that they were unwanted, (after all your your BNP street thugs would not know that they were the wives or children of Ghurkhas they were beating up on the streets would they?) and then asking British taxpayers to pay for them all to go home! Hypocritical and totally stupid!

6. You say, you are in favour of an unlimited number of Ghurkhas and their families coming to Britain, because of their service to the British military, as a means of them obtaining a better life. But, there are lots of people in Asia who have provided service to Britain over the years, and plenty who also want to come here for a better life. But you are not in favour of them coming here. On the contrary you want to prevent any further non-white immigration. More hypocrisy.

7. You say you admire the Ghurkhas and want them to come to Britain in unlimited numbers (good), but not only do you then want to treat them as second class citizens, but you want to deny them the basic right guaranteed in BRITISH Law not to be discriminated against, by denying them the right to join your Party! Hypocrisy.

8. You go on about crime etc. as a means of attacking black people – only a minority of whom have been involved in crime – and yet the BNP as a Party has a very high percentage of people who have been convicted of violent crime, and its leader says that it will use fists and boots rather than rationality to get its way! Hypocrisy. In fact, your own methods here and elsewhere demonstrate just how incapable BNP members are of rationality, and how quickly you become hysterical when you have lost the argument. Perhaps you could tell us what convictions you have yourself?

9. You claim that you are a Party for British workers, yet you have told us that you are yourself a boss that exploits not just British workers, but who exploits foreign workers too. Yet more hypocrisy.

You have shown that you have no answers to any of these points and rather than answer them simply go off on a wild ramble of everything under the sun to avoid answering them. Once again you are exposed for what you are.

Boffy said...

Sentinel,

Given Montreal's sharp criticisms of my positions over the last year, long before you made any comment here, only a deluded fool could believe that he was some kind of sock puppet. You seem to fit that description perfectly.

It is perhaps an inication of the kind of irrational, intemperate people that the BNP attracts that your commenst here quickly descended from anyhting approaching rationality to simply, a series of violent, and hystrerical outbursts, reminiscent of a spoiled child that has lost the argument, and resorts to simply shouting out absurdities.

That is what your politics amounts to a kind of Political Tourets.

For that reason its clear that you obviously have some severe mental and emotional problems, and as a compassionate person I have no desire to see you suffer even if I have no time for your political positions.

So rather than wasting my time responding to any more of your spam comments here I will alolow you the time instead to go seek some profeesional help for your condition.

The Sentinel said...

Once again, you call facts you don't like and cannot disprove spam in another demonstration of your dishonesty.

The canaries are not IN Africa, and are owned by the Spanish in any case which is part of the EU and so any capital investment in the Canary Islands is an investment in Spain and by extension the EU - that is the truth of the matter - it is you who brings it to the bizarre by goggling which continental plate it sits on!! It doesn't matter to normal people - you are wrong, I have made no capital investment in Africa!!!!

NORMAL PEOPLE LAUGH AT YOUR INSANITY AND DISHONESTY!!!


"The point is that I don’t care WHO made THAT claim"

Of course you say you don't - you don't care for facts anyway, but you would care if it was someone you were able to brand as a Nazi and racist. But at least you now accept it as fact. Progress in your treatment.


"that it is not the same as your assertion drawn from it that 80% of black people have been involved in gang rape"

I have never made that claim - you have.

But the FACT is THAT in GANG RAPE cases 80% of the defendants are BLACK - and you just try and lie and squirm around the fact that normal people find that very shocking and very QUITE OBVIOUSLY indicative of a trend - and we do not have to expand upon — that is the truth.


"As far as I’m concerned they are closed."

But then go on to post more rubbish in any case.

Of course you want it to be closed, you hate the truth, but people all over the western world are SICK of it and being the VICTIMS of COLOSSAL and unnecessary ETHNIC crime rates - hence the rise all over Europe and the rise of the BNP!!


"Given Montreal's sharp criticisms of my positions over the last year"

Most likely your sharp criticism of yourself to draw attention to your lonely blog and to provide credence who you use your sock puppet to attack others; and it is well know technique of the extreme left.


1) I am a British nationalist who has put his life where his heart is and served this country for many years in some of the most dangerous shit holes on the planet whereas you are a coward who was to scared to.

I am a self made working class business man who ha doesn't subscribe to your hateful anti-freedom creed and do business wherever I choose bringing more jobs and wealth to Britons; you are a hypocritical capitalist property owner who fuels further capitalism and clearly took more then the average man from the wage system.

Yet another ignorant lie here - The BNP do not have anything to say about business abroad - just that in the UK the priority is for British jobs for British Workers - and I have created those jobs.


2) I don't have to defend anything. I am pointing out how absurd your lie that I invest "Capital in Africa" when clearly any capital invested in the Canary Islands is capital invested in Spain, and the EU and as the UK is a part of the EU some of the money comes back in any case.


3) He is not a leading member of the party, he is an MEP. He was convicted one offence in 62 years of life by way of a summary hearing by an untrained amateur in a police court on the word of one police officer. But it has nothing to do with me in any case. I served with the Gurkha's many times, still have Gurkha friends and campaigned to help them.

Whreas you do not know them at all; have done nothing to help, and want to disband their regiments and prevent them from earning the right to come to the UK


4) There is an exception to any rule.


5) Rubbish. Already refuted in depth.


6) No, there is not. Already refuted in depth.

The Sentinel said...

7) There is no right in law to join a party with a membership criteria you lying fool - hence the BNP is a perfectly legitimate party with elected officials at all levels and two MEP'S!!!

Joining a political has never been a right, but being discriminated against for being a member of one has. One that you and your fascist cronies are trying their best to destroy. But you wont.

8) I point out facts that you do not like and cannot counter and the BNP has a much lower rate of individual convicted then the establishment parties - the latest convicts two from Labour were a racist thug and a nonce and the Tories, a rapist of a 13 year old girl. And the SWP have a serial killer of gay men!!!

9) You are a complete idiot. I employ people and provide jobs and wealth!!! People can work for whoever they want - we still have that freedom you hate so much!!! You really are a deranged muppet!!!


So all we come down to is your lies exposed once again for all to see and the fact that you hate the Gurkha's so much you want to disband them and take away their livelihoods, their traditions and their route to UK residency.


"So rather than wasting my time responding to any more of your spam comments here I will alolow you the time instead to go seek some profeesional help for your condition!"

Which means that you have run out of road on your lies and to quote you a few post back: "Its clear that once again you’ve lost the argument, and your preparing to bottle out again. We won’t miss your contributions this time either."

YOU HAVE FAILED TO PROVE EVEN ONE OF YOUR LIES!!!!

Montreal said...

Sentinel,

Judging by your comments and the name Sentinel, if I am a sock puppet then you sound like a retarded super hero.

Now I think that I have wasted enough time trying to extend your narrow isane view of the world but I need to make a few final comments.

Re the BNP concern for Muslim birth rates compared to whites, this is exactly what a BNP councillor said when being interviewed on Sky news last week!
He said that this trend would have to be reversed!

For a right wing nut job you are not very clued up on the right wing nut job party beliefs. Your ignorance is absolute.

The Sentinel said...

Hey sock puppet!

Back again!


"He said that this trend would have to be reversed!"

Yip - he DIDN'T say anything about the BNP "would want to sterilize all Muslims or more likely you would force white people to have babies, possibly by enslaving women" now did he?

That was yet another hysterical lie wasn't it?

And given that virtually every asylum seeker in the UK is bogus because under international law, as any genuine asylum seekers is supposed to seek asylum in the first safe country we have our first solution to the start of reversing the trend.

Again, your ignorance is absolute and matched only by your dishonesty and lack of integrity.

You have been thoroughly demolished as 'boffy' and as a sock puppet on every single point.

But you are right about one thing - you are a waste of time.

Montreal said...

Shit for brains,

I am not sure the weight of international law is on your side, but your support of the Human rights act is a positive sign. (Or is it just that you are the dumbest man on god’s earth).

He talked specifically about BIRTH RATES, i.e. how many children Muslims were having compared to whites. He said the trend (BIRTH RATES) would need to be reversed, how else could this campaign promise be achieved other than by forcing Muslims to stop reproducing or forcing whites to reproduce? (Notice I ignore your first solution idea here, that’s because, even for you, it is so moronic that you may have secured a job on the BNP policy think tank committee).

How else can your insane crime analysis be anything other than a call to round up blacks and other ethnic minorities, tag them and impose curfews on them or worse?

How else can your, laughable but at the same time dangerous, belief that only Anglo-Saxons represent the true English be interpreted, other than by some policy of determining everyone’s ethnicity to sort out the pure from the impure?

How else can your views on immigrants, bogus asylum seekers or indigenous minorities be interpreted, other than by hunting down, rounding up and incarceration on a mass scale?

And how else can any of this be achieved without turning this country into a totalitarian police state?

(PS you are a persistent twat, I’ll give you that)

The Sentinel said...

Hey sock puppet!!!

"I am not sure the weight of international law is on your side"

Of course not. Your ignorance is absolute.

You should actually learn something about the grounding first before gobbing off.


"He said the trend (BIRTH RATES) would need to be reversed, how else could this campaign promise be achieved other than by forcing Muslims to stop reproducing or forcing whites to reproduce?"

By reducing the numbers of them in the UK - hence: given that virtually every asylum seeker in the UK is bogus because under international law, as any genuine asylum seekers is supposed to seek asylum in the first safe country we have our first solution to the start of reversing the trend. You see?!!


"(Notice I ignore your first solution idea here, that’s because, even for you, it is so moronic that you may have secured a job on the BNP policy think tank committee)."

It is sound logic actually, and even a sock puppet should understand it: Less foreigners means less foreign birth rate in the UK!!!


"How else can your insane crime analysis be anything other than a call to round up blacks and other ethnic minorities, tag them and impose curfews on them or worse?"

They are not my crime figures at all, as you well know. They are all facts, mainly ones that governments tried to suppress and the 80% black defendant gang rape figure comes from a famous black activist!!

Facts are racist are they?!!!

What it does tell us - and every other western country - is what we can expect by importing more of these people into our countries.

You hate these figures because they tear apart every last nasty racist lie you peddle.


"How else can your, laughable but at the same time dangerous, belief that only Anglo-Saxons represent the true English be interpreted, other than by some policy of determining everyone’s ethnicity to sort out the pure from the impure?"

The very word English means Angle and very word England means land of the Angles - so any belief of yours to the contrary is both laughable and dangerous.

Only Anglo-saxons are true English and only Anglo-saxons and Celts are true Britons - its a fact. We are the indigenous people and we have built this country up over centuries; the rest have been here for a blink of an eye and take far more then they have given.

We have every right to make decisions about our homeland.

So therefore only Anglo-saxons and Celts can be British citizens; whilst others may have residency - especially the Gurkha's.


"How else can your views on immigrants, bogus asylum seekers or indigenous minorities be interpreted, other than by hunting down, rounding up and incarceration on a mass scale?"

Illegal immigrants and bogus asylum seekers will be removed and no more will be allowed in. Foreign criminals will be deported.

Voluntary assisted repatriation will be available to all the rest.


"And how else can any of this be achieved without turning this country into a totalitarian police state?"

Removing Illegal immigrants, bogus asylum seekers and foreign criminals and preventing any others is the JOB of the state as it is the JOB of the police - there is nothing "totalitarian" or remotely "police state" in border controls and enforcing the reasonable law of the land.


(PS you are a persistent twat, I’ll give you that)

You're just a twat.

I'll give you that.

Boffy said...

Montreal,

'm busy at the moment so this can't be the respone I'd like to give.

The first thing I'd say is that I don't think you understand what Sentinel is. A BNP moron yes, but more importantly he's just a spammer. I had a long pointless "debate" with him a while ago on AVPS site that began talking about the refinery strikes, and ended with him posting a 15,000 word diatribe on every subject under the sun!

He isn't interested in a rational debate only wasting your time. If you notice much of his posts are just padding, stuff he's copied and pasted in that take up your time to read to no benefit.

Nor is there, as you seem to have discovered any point in providing him with facts, because he'll just be annoying and say you haven't turning it into a schoolyard "Yes, I did", "no you didn't" exercise that is about typical of he BNP thug mentality.

This is someone who rather than taking part in a rational political debate will dispute every map on the planet as well as a clear statement from Wiki Answers to argue that the Canaries are not in Africa. again that is typical of his method to just waste your time.

The same as you seem to have found with statistics, which is why I've refused to get into a numbers game with him here. I've given the example that he's so stupid not to udnerstand the difference between

80% of X = Y, and
80% of Y = X.

I will look out when I have time another example where he made a big thing about immigration figures into Sweden. In fact, the figures amounted to less than 1% of the population!

I'll come back on some of this stuff, and what I think should be focussed on when I have time.

The Sentinel said...

Why are you talking to your sock puppet Arthur?

And here we go with usual 'bottling out' smear tactics that you fanatics always employ.

There is no spam here, just facts that you do not like and try to bury.

As for the "15,000 word diatribe" rubbish - how long do you think this post was??!! Or your last one?!! Or your average post?!! Or even your responses in that "debate"?!

You couldn't be honest, even just once, if your life depended on it Arthur - and that is the truth.

I have demonstrated it to you quite a few times now Arthur: The truth is your enemy, the reality of truth destroys your Marxist myths whereas the truth is my ally, the truth is on my side.

I am the only one actually taking part in a rational debate here and refute ALL of your points with reason, logic and evidence.

It is you who resorts to silly little games such as googling the continental plate that the Canary Islands sits on when you were caught out on another lie that I invest capital in Africa - when clearly the Canary islands is owned by the Spanish - not any African country - and any capital invested is in Spain and by extension the EU, not in Africa or any African country.

This has all been carefully explained to you, and I even included a simple analogy for you on how a political map works:

Russia for instance sits on two continents, but it wouldn't matter if you, lived on, paid tax , etc. on one in Moscow or on the other in Vladivostok, you would still be in Russia and paying into Russia!!! And if you invested money in Moscow, which is in Europe you would still be investing in the same country as Vladivostok in Asia!!

Oh the mistakes you make and the tangled web you then weave 'boffy'!

I love it how you call me a thug when you publicly salivate over any violence or prospect of it that you and your failed ideology lives for - except of course when its in power, and then it proves to be the most totalitarian, violent and sadistic ideology the world has ever seen with over 110,000,000 murdered so far and many, many more tortured, committed to asylums for political rehabilitation and imprisoned in gulags and camps.

And you have the front to call me a thug!!!! And again, as always, with not one shred of evidence.

Of course, again, you tried to play silly little games on the figure of 80% of blacks being defendants in gang rape cases rather then actually dealing with the facts and refused to admit that gang rape is clearly a black problem; and of course you did the same with the immigration / emigration figures of Sweden that showed a historical record high of emigration at the same time of as the historical record high of Third World immigration; 1% is a lot of any countries indigenous people to be leaving every year, and obviously in 20 years at the same rate it would 20% indigenous left to 20% Third Worlder's in without factoring higher birth rates among other ethnicities - but the fact is that the figures are INCREASING so far and so it has immense implications for the future of Sweden in near future.

But you are not interested in the truth or rational debate - you just want to lie and cheat and play silly little point scoring games.

The truth is your enemy.

And as for you "don't have the time" - we all know as you are unemployed you have nothing but time.

Its the answers you don't have, Arthur.

Boffy said...

Montreal,

I have more time now to return to my post from yesterday. Basically, there are two points about Sentinel. Firstly, yes, he is a BNP’er, and almost without saying, therefore, ignorant and particularly stupid. His posts start from that in their content, and form – mindless assertions that often are based on dubious sources or facts – this is after all ideologically, the Party of Goebbels, the Party that printed and distributed in tens of thousands of copies the Protocols of Zion – but, which do not offer an rational argument even based on these assertions. Secondly, and more importantly he is a spammer. He complains about the Left not being prepared to engage the BNP in political debate, but then when he is engaged in political debate runs away from it to divert attention to everything under the sun! Can you imagine in a live debate someone questioning him about the hypocrisy of his position of advocating BRITISH Nationalism, and “BRITISH Jobs for BRITISH workers”, whilst at the same time himself owning a business in the Canaries, and in response him responding with a 20 minute exegesis on why he believes the Canaries are not in Africa???? Workers in the audience would simply laugh him off the stage! Yet, that is typical of his method on the Internet, spamming designed for no other reason than to tie people up in meaningless discussion and avoid defending his politics.

Of course, as a BNP’er, his reason for using large slabs of spam quotes about crime and immigration have a political purpose. Actually, that purpose itself is a rather graphic reflection of the stupidity of such people on a socialist website, because it can fairly well be established that the vast majority of people reading the posts there are rational human beings, who are not going to be taken in by such ravings. But, the purpose is clearly to make the suggestion that black people or immigrants are somehow innately prone to such behaviour. Of course, as inheritors of the methods of Goebbels, people like Sentinel will then lie about, and misrepresent even these iffy statistics. So in his hands 80%, of defendants in gang rape cases, becomes 80% of black people are involved in cases of gang rape!!!! The actual percentage of black people involved in Gang Rape, being as generous as anyone could possibly be in the interpretation of his statistics, was not 80%, but 0.27%!!!! And, who were the main victims? Black people!

In another example, he cited the figures for immigration and emigration for Sweden, proclaiming that these figures were “historic”. Well, perhaps they were “historic”, but in statistical terms they certainly were not SIGNIFICANT. The figures were in reality even on the basis of his own figures around 0.5% for emigration, and 0.7% for immigration!!!!! In the same “debate” he did the same thing when speaking of Jews. He took the fact that some Jews were Bolsheviks and some were bankers and turned this into the Bolsheviks being dominated by Jews. In fact, Jews were a minority of both bankers and Bolsheviks.

But, although it is useful pointing out these facts to ordinary rational workers in this context against him it isn’t. Were this a public debate with large numbers of workers present then it would be important to expose the inanity of Sentinel and the BNP by showing their lies for what they are but it isn’t, as I said above he wouldn’t get away with his response in a Public Meeting with workers, and so he can simply deny the truth (as he does even with his contention of the geographical location of the Canary Islands!) or else simply divert attention with a load of abuse, before going off on another irrelevant exegesis . As I said, spamming. Here, I think it is more important to deal not with the statistics, but with the actual politics of the BNP – that is the implications they want to draw from those statistics. It is also important to simply expose Sentinel and the BNP for their real politics as thugs, and hypocrites.

Boffy said...

For example, Sentinel gives us all these statistics about immigrants supposedly involved in various crimes, but he does not, of course, analyse the causes or implications of that. He does not ask, “Why are these immigrants involved in these kinds of crimes?”, because he already starts from the position of simply wanting to attack immigrants! By simply stating a “fact” he hopes that people will simply draw the conclusion that immigrants are innately criminal! That it is somehow embedded in their genes – that is particularly true given the racist politics of the BNP. However, that conclusion is easily shown to be false. The fact is that the majority of immigrants are NOT involved in criminal activity. So that criminal activity cannot be the result of being an immigrant. It must have other causes.

In fact, we don’t have to look too far for what those causes might be. Last night, I was watching a BBC Four programme about the development of North Sea Oil during the 1960’s. The workers – all of whom were white British – spoke about the terrible conditions under which they were billeted, and in which they worked. They had no where to go outside their working time, and this inevitably built up a lot of stress. That combined with the fact that with nothing else to do, the workers spent a lot of time drinking, led the men said to around ten fights a night.

You could find that story repeated in many places. But, was this violent crime a consequence of those involved being white? Was it a consequence of them being building workers? Of course, not it was a consequence of the conditions under which they existed, conditions similar to those faced by thousands of migrant workers all over the world.

Take another example, there are many TV programmes along the lines of “Toughest Pub in Britain”. Very few of the thugs involved who make them the toughest pub, supposedly, are black, or immigrants. On the contrary, they are overwhelmingly white! In fact, many of the them are the kind of people attracted to the BNP! Or take another example, football hooliganism and violence. Again, the vast majority of those involved are not black or immigrants, they are white, and again the figures show, many of them are actual BNP members!

Or take white collar crime, which is supposed to be victimless, but as the experience of the Credit Crunch shows, is far from being so. Now, of course, Sentinel, and his ilk would and do try to present such crime as being predominantly the work of all those Jews who they tell us control the world financial system as part of the worldwide Jewish-Bolshevik conspiracy – though given their recent support for Israel, they might be keeping quiet about that for populist reasons – but, the reality is that these crimes robbing ordinary working people of billions of pounds are committed not by Jews, not by black people, not by immigrants, but by those very white Anglo-Saxons that Sentinel believes constitute the master race!

Boffy said...

I think that it is far better to simply challenge the logic that the fascists want to draw from the statistics than to get into a numbers game with them, which would go over the heads of many people. Rather than trying to argue AGAINST the absurdities spouted by Sentinel and the BNP, it is important to address our responses to the workers, who unlike Sentinel are capable of rational discussion. An encouraging sign was the poll conducted by Channel 4 News after the recent elections. To give one example. Sentinel has previously argued that black people are less intelligent than white people, though, of course, this is nonsense, and all the scientific evidence shows it to be nonsense. It is, however, a central aspect of the ideology of all racist parties like the BNP. But, the Ch. 4 survey showed that when asked if they believed that black people were less intelligent than white people, 60% of those who voted for the BNP, said “No”, and even 30% of BNP members said “No”!

Racist ideas are deeply embedded in the British population due to our history, but those ideas are extremely brittle. During the US Civil War, starving textile workers in Lancashire were class conscious enough to threaten to black any cotton that British employers obtained from the Confederacy, because they identified far more with those black slaves than they did with British bosses. The millions of people who support various Appeals for famine relief in Africa etc. demonstrate a concern for human life, whatever the colour of skin it comes in. After all, as the BBC series, “The Incredible Human Journey”, demonstrated, we are all Africans anyway.

The fact is that the BNP are an irrelevance. In this week’s Weekly Worker, Jim Moody argues correctly that we should not let them distract us from the real job of winning the battle of democracy amongst the working class, where whatever the bravado of the BNP, they continue to have absolutely negligible support. The same is true of Sentinel. A complete irrelevance.

Montreal said...

Thanks for this Boffy.

I think you are correct about Sentinel. In the USA Chinese workers were used to do many dangerous dirty jobs and were once looked down upon as inferior beings. Unfortunately these prejudices still remain but not, of course, to the demented extent that Sentinel exhibits.

As I said in an earlier comment, if this guy was allowed to air his views on prime time TV, the BNP rise would see a dramatic fall.

As an aside, did you see the I am running Sainsbury’s programme on channel 4?

The Sentinel said...

Why are you talking to your sock puppet again, Arthur?

Using that demented and bizarre 'it puts the lotion in the baske' third person weirdness?


"this is after all ideologically, the Party of Goebbels"

Not even slightly.

But your failed ideology is the ideology of violence and has proven to be the most totalitarian, violent and sadistic ideology the world has ever seen with over 110,000,000 murdered so far and many, many more tortured, committed to asylums for political rehabilitation and imprisoned in gulags and camps.


"the Protocols of Zion"

Nothing to do with the BNP at all. You are deluded as always.

And this is the same protocols you think the Nazis forged?!! Even though they appeared at least 25 years before the Nazis even existed!!!

Your ignorance is absolute.


"why he believes the Canaries are not in Africa????"

As always, you are a very transparent liar.

You claimed that I invest capital in Africa when clearly the Canary islands is owned by the Spanish - not any African country - and any capital invested is in Spain and by extension the EU, not in Africa or any African country.


Russia for instance sits on two continents, but it wouldn't matter if you, lived on, paid tax , etc. on one in Moscow or on the other in Vladivostok, you would still be in Russia and paying into Russia!!! And if you invested money in Moscow, which is in Europe you would still be investing in the same country as Vladivostok in Asia!!


"of advocating BRITISH Nationalism, and “BRITISH Jobs for BRITISH workers"

As a British policy that doesn't apply in foreign countries you idiot - they are free to do as they choose, and business is encouraged.

And I employ British workers in British job - jobs that would otherwise not exist.



"Of course, as a BNP’er, his reason for using large slabs of spam quotes about crime and immigration have a political purpose."

We agree there - quite obviously.

But these are facts that need addressing and if it is not through politics then it will be through the violence seen in South Belfast recently.

The Sentinel said...

" in his hands 80%, of defendants in gang rape cases, becomes 80% of black people are involved in cases of gang rape!!"

You are the only one to claim that - just more silly games and futile point scoring.

You cannot admit the obvious fact that the figure of 80% of all gang rapes resulting in black defendants is clearly a majority problem of just one group in the UK: Blacks.

Can you imagine in a live debate someone questioning you about the hypocrisy of you positions? Workers in the audience would simply laugh you off the stage!

That and the fact that you are a property owning capitalist who clearly took more then the average working mans wage whilst working for corporations.


"proclaiming that these figures were “historic”"

And again, you show usual cavalier contempt for the truth - I made no such proclamation.

The mainstream Swedish newspaper reporting it did - and why? Because it was true!!!


"The figures were in reality even on the basis of his own figures around 0.5% for emigration, and 0.7% for immigration!!!!!"

In one year and its hugely increasing- on top of the already displaced Swedes and their Third World replacements - so in 20 years, Sweden's very existence is in peril.

And just like every other country this has been inflicted upon, no one asked for it, voted for it or gave any mandate for it - and given that in Sweden it was found that a rapist was four times more likely to have been born abroad – with Algeria, Libya, Morocco and Tunisia dominating the group of rape suspects and that non-whites were responsible for 25% of all crime in Sweden with just the numbers there already, any more is a catastrophe.

And this is the horrific result so far, the firm basis of the Balkanisation of Sweden:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diw5SneythM&feature=related


"He took the fact that some Jews were Bolsheviks and some were bankers and turned this into the Bolsheviks being dominated by Jews"

Yet another lie.


"Were this a public debate with large numbers of workers present then it would be important to expose the inanity of Sentinel and the BNP.."

Funny that, because the BNP gained more councillors - at the highest local government level - and two MEP's in this election and debated plenty - where the PC junta would allow.

But do you really think that your position of hating me as a "boss" when I am a working class lad from one of the most deprived areas of London who served his country for many years and managed to make good for himself, purely out of hard work and self financed learning, and never borrowed a penny for to start businesses but used his own hard earned money, and who has created good jobs for people with good wages and mostly for Britons - jobs that wouldn't exist otherwise - is really going to endear you to anyone?

Especially when you are a property owning capitalist yourself!!!

You hate people that do well for themselves and make a better life for themselves and others - you want to see them ground back down to abject working class poverty; stunted from growth and denied any potential or future.

You hate people.

The Sentinel said...

"or else simply divert attention with a load of abuse, before going off on another irrelevant exegesis"

I am the one being having profanity and abuse thrown at him, but of course projection is your game too.


"Why are these immigrants involved in these kinds of crimes?”

Well, for one, when we can see the result of our, at best, misguided generosity we can stop any further occurrence of it.

But of course, the excuses are out for you again - excuses I have demolished time and time again - and they have to be out for you because the truth is your enemy.

In the UK and (and Northern Europe as well) not only do non-whites have laws that discriminate in their favour for employment along with race quotas but everyone has equal access to social security, and so in the worst case, the poorest non-white is as poor as the poorest white.

And Denmark, Norway and Sweden didn't have "ghettos" until very recently, and they are not areas of actual poverty but voluntary enclaves of ethnicity. The Nordic bloc never imported foreign workers to make up a deficit, all of their immigration has come from purely "humanitarian" motivation and they have been well looked after.

Your excuses do not hold water.

And since when was rape and gang rape a crime of "poverty?"

And even the most PC PM we have ever had, had this to say:

"Tony Blair yesterday claimed the spate of knife and gun murders in London was not being caused by poverty, but a distinctive black culture...

He said people had to drop their political correctness and recognise that the violence would not be stopped "by pretending it is not young black kids doing it"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2007/apr/12/ukcrime.race



"try to present such crime as being predominantly the work of all those Jews who they tell us control the world financial system as part of the worldwide Jewish-Bolshevik conspiracy"

You just lie and lie and lie, all without a single scrap of evidence.


"but, the reality is that these crimes robbing ordinary working people of billions of pounds are committed not by Jews, not by black people, not by immigrants"

But the shootings, stabbing, mugging and gang rapes are the work of the immigrants - mainly of black people. That is a fact.

And I would rather white collar fraud that barley effects me to that any day - as I sure most normal people would.

But either ways, the BNP will put an end to all of it.

The Sentinel said...

"that Sentinel believes constitute the master race!"

More baseless lies.

You are the only one to use Nazi terminology here, and terms such as "ayran."


"I think that it is far better to simply challenge the logic that the fascists want to draw from the statistics than to get into a numbers game with them"

Again, you are just a duplicitous liar as that is exactly what you do.

Just as truth is your enemy, so is logic.


"To give one example. Sentinel has previously argued that black people are less intelligent than white people, though, of course, this is nonsense, and all the scientific evidence shows it to be nonsense"

It shows the complete opposite as you well know and so does anecdotal evidence:

"...the study shows that foreign-born school children lagged behind their Swedish-born counterparts, with students born in Africa falling far behind their native peers by 9th grade, even if they came to Sweden at a pre-school age.

"The differences in schooling, especially for Africans, shows how they are not eligible in the same way as other groups for upper secondary education, as they are not achieving the right grades, even though we take into account how long they have been in Sweden," said Persson.

"We don't really know why this is.”

http://www.thelocal.se/16452/20081218


"if they believed that black people were less intelligent than white people, 60% of those who voted for the BNP, said “No”, and even 30% of BNP members said “No”!"

And what is your point exactly?

And you really think they asked all 940,000 BNP voters? And how could anyone could know who really voted for the BNP anyway?


"The fact is that the BNP are an irrelevance... In this week’s Weekly Worker"

That's very amusing - the "weekly worker"!!!

The fact is that you and your ideology are an irrelevance and you have no support whatsoever for its open practitioners!!

The BNP have elected officials at every level - with MP's to come shortly - and a voting base of a million.

But just to demonstrate how far out of reality you are, the country official opposition and party most likely to win the next general election - as opposed to losers like you with no support or officials, and losers who generally don't even field candidates because of the total lack of support - had this to say:

"[Tory Party chairman Mr Pickles, speaking at a Westminster Press Gallery lunch, said of the BNP: "They are going to be a very serious force in British politics and the mainstream political parties have got to get their act together and start confronting them.

"We have got to start working in those areas where they have got contact, harder than we have ever worked before.

"That's the way you are going to defeat the BNP - you have got to take the BNP on.

"They have filled that vacuum which Labour retreated from so long ago."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8103626.stm


And so yet again, the truth is the complete opposite to what you have to say: It is you and your ideology who is an irrelevance that continues to have absolutely negligible support -whereas the BNP have considerable support and many elected officials.


But like I said Arthur, you couldn't tell the truth, even once, if your life depended on it: The truth is your enemy.

Boffy said...

Montreal,

No, I didn't see that. In what regard. I saw some trailers for it. Can you specify. I can always catch up on 4 On Demand.

The Sentinel said...

Thats it, stay down 'boffy'!!!

Its clear that once again you’ve lost the argument, and your preparing to bottle out again. We won’t miss your contributions this time either.

Keep nodding your head, I'll keep hitting it!

Boffy said...

The reason for not replying to your spam is that – its spam. Where it contains any argument, it’s so infantile as to be below criticism. I’ve let you continue wasting your time on it because a) no one here is going to be bothered by it, b) whilst you’re wasting your time on it, you’re not printing stuff to your own website, and more importantly, its taking time away that you could have been used to further exploit your workers in this country, in Africa and other parts of the world! In addition you have failed to provide any rational replies to the examples of your hypocrisy I’ve already set out.

However, having given you enough rope, I’m happy, as you seem desperate for more punishment, to demonstrate how you have hung yourself once more.

You have banged on about your military service, and criticised me and by implications others for not following your example in serving the British State. In other posts you have criticised the actions of that State in its invasion of Iraq. Indeed, you called these actions “fascist”. I’m sure that the innocent civilians of Iraq who have had their homes and livelihoods destroyed, not to mention over 100,000 of them who have lost their lives, would agree with your description! Of course, its not the first example of such “fascist” activity, by that State. You have referred to the role of that State under the Government of Winston Churchill in overthrowing the democratic Government of Mossadegh in Iran in 1953. Three years later it engaged in similar action in Egypt to try to secure the Suez Canal for British Capital. IN fact, all these actions were for the benefit not of British people, certainly not British Workers, who you tell us you and the BNP are the friends of, but of British Capitalists! If we look we can, in fact, find dozens more examples, including the whole role of Britain in enslaving peoples throughout the British Empire.

Now an intelligent, rational person would see the obvious contradiction, and absurdity of your position here. But, as you are clearly neither intelligent, nor rational I’ll spell it out for you. If as, you describe it, that British State, is guilty of these “fascist” acts, reactionary acts that are a betrayal of the interests of those ordinary British workers you claim to support, why one Earth would any rational human being voluntarily make themselves the active agent of that State, make themselves the very means by which those acts are carried out???? Surely, a rational person given those facts would instead have served their country by opposing those actions, would better still have served it by becoming a nurse, or some other job that helped ordinary British people? Yet, not only dot you tell us you volunteered for this military, but you encourage other workers to do the same!!!!! Not only does it again demonstrate your stupidity, but demonstrates again your hypocrisy. Say one thing do the exact opposite, just like you employing your Capital overseas whilst arguing “British Jobs for British Workers”!

Worse, than that. That very same state has used those very same armed forces against those very same British workers you claim to be the friend of. It used them to shoot miners at Tonypandy, it used them to break Firemen’s strikes, it used them in police uniforms during the Miners Strike. So given, all of these examples, including the ones you have given yourself of that State acting against Workers Interests, and acting in the Interests of British Capital, why do you tell workers to join this military? It could be because you are stupid, for which we have lots of evidence. It could be because, you are a hypocrite, of which we have an equal amount of evidence. But, the main reason is that you and the BNP despite trying to dupe the workers into believing you are their friends, are the active agents of the bosses AGAINST the workers. In fact, in many cases at the top of your Party, your members are bosses themselves, and like you the exploiters of British workers.

The Sentinel said...

The reason you are not replying is becasue you have run out of lies and now have to stoop to the spam rubbish - so not only are facts that you do not like and cannot counter are "racist" they now "spam"!!!

Amazing.

And trust me, it takes only moments to demolish your lunacies, absurdities and lies.

And all of this from you - a property owning capitalist who clearly took more then the average workers wage whilst contributing to capitalism in the corporations you worked for and a worshipper of the bloody mass murderers of the workers!!!


"further exploit your workers in this country, in Africa and other parts of the world"

So employing people is exploiting them is it?

And you claim that I invest capital in Africa has been laughed off for the childish idiocy it is - clearly the Canary islands is owned by the Spanish - not any African country - and any capital invested is in Spain and by extension the EU, not in Africa or any African country.

Russia for instance sits on two continents, but it wouldn't matter if you, lived on, paid tax , etc. on one in Moscow or on the other in Vladivostok, you would still be in Russia and paying into Russia!!! And if you invested money in Moscow, which is in Europe you would still be investing in the same country as Vladivostok in Asia!!


The rest of your bizarre rant is very, very strange, even for you 'boffy' and just exposes more of your hatred: This time for British soldiers.

I know that you - as a whimpering coward who was too scared and too weak to serve his country - do not understand the military but soldiers do what they are ordered to do by the people who have been voted in overwhelming by the 'workers!' - understand the implications of that, 'boffy?'

British soldiers are the best in the world and follow legal battle orders without mutiny and leave the politics to the politicians who were voted in by the 'workers'!!!

Without the British forces you most certainly not have had the freedom to be able to vent your pure hatred of Britain, its people and the British forces. You would most likely be speaking German and saluting your Fuhrer - and as a fanatic you would be most at home.


"but demonstrates again your hypocrisy"

Besides your hatred of British soldiers, you also hate the workers and want to see them without employment and opportunities in life.

You want to control the 'workers' in a disgusting, violent and murderous tyranny and cap any potential they might have or any freedom they have to make a better life for themselves.

Your hatred of the 'workers' is obscene.

And as a property owning capitalist your hypocrisy is boundless!!!!

The Sentinel said...

"That very same state has used those very same armed forces against those very same British workers you claim to be the friend of."

Again, you are just an obscene hypocrite as your two heroes Lenin and Trotsky carried out much, much, much worse measures against the 'workers' - that they and you claim to be the friend of - during their Red Terror.

Indeed it was Lenin who created the first Soviet Secret police terror organisation, the Cheka and by 1921 just one branch of these organisation (Troops for the Internal Defense of the Republic) numbered 200,000 -

"These troops policed labor camps, ran the Gulag system, conducted requisitions of food, liquidated political opponents (on both the right and the left), put down peasant rebellions, riots by workers, and mutinies in the Red Army, which was plagued by desertions"

All on Lenin's orders - the supposed liberator of the workers was in fact violently oppressing workers actions and murdering them wholesale!!

"At the direction of Lenin, the Cheka performed mass arrests, imprisonments, and executions of "enemies of the people". In this, the Cheka said that they targeted "class enemies" such as the bourgeoisie, and members of the clergy; the first organized mass repression began against the libertarian Socialists of Petrograd in April 1918…"

And we are talking about very significant amounts of people murdered, the vast majority were peasants and workers the estimates range from 50,000 to 500,000 people murdered.

"Lenin himself seemed unfazed by the killings. On 12 January 1920, while addressing trade union leaders, he said:

"We did not hesitate to shoot thousands of people, and we shall not hesitate, and we shall save the country."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheka


And who was the second in command in the USSR when all this was going on? Trotsky.

So Lenin and Trotsky are hardly the friend of the workers and nor are you.

In fact you hate them with a passion.

Again, it is easy to expose you as a hateful liar and will keep doing it everytime you post these hateful lies.


So, stay down 'boffy'!!!

Its clear that once again you’ve lost the argument, and your preparing to bottle out again. We won’t miss your contributions this time either.

Keep nodding your head, I'll keep hitting it!

Larry Williams said...

Sentinel,

I haven't been here for a while, but your posts sound like the ravings of a lunatic. On the one hand a large part of your post seems to be a personal attack on Boffy - a person who from your post I gather you do not even know, and yet who you seem willing to make the most wild allegations, that do not fit with everything I have read about him - and on the other you refuse to answer any of the points made about the obvious contradictions between your own actions - which are not matters of speculation this time, but arise from your own freely given statements about what you do for a living and so on - and the politics of the organisation you belong to. Instead, at every turn you seem to want to launch into a tirade on some irrelevant subject such as the geographical location of the Canaries, which might hold some interest for Geographers but has little relevance on a polical discussion blog.

As for your attack on the Russian Revolution, it is both inaccurate, and irrelevant. You cannot excuse your own hypocrisy and contradictions, let alone your support for Hitler's atrocities by simply saying, my guy was bad, but others were worse, even if your allegation were true. As I understand it, for one thing, Boffy is critical of the Russian Revolution, which is why he argues for Co-ops. But, on the point of the Russian Revolution, your argument misses one central point. The Bolsheviks introduced the Cheka, because Russia was under attack by 18 imperialist armies trying to restore the Tsar. There had been an attempt to assasinate Lenin, and the previous ruling class was organising sabotage and counter-revolution. On the other hand, your Hitler's cold blooded murder of 6 million Jews, the locking up of tens of thousands of TRade Unionists, the murder of thousands of disabled people and so on, had no such mitigation.