The clearest lesson from the events in Gaza over the last week is that the demand for a Two State solution is a dangerous illusion. Twenty years ago when the Workers Socialist League, of which I was hen a member, adopted this position I argued against it for reasons which the current events have born out.
Two years ago Israel removed itself from Gaza, both its troops and its settlers. Its reasons for doing so may have been cynical, but its reasons for leaving do not change the fact that it did leave. It left as part of a tacit agreement with Bush that it would effectively have a free hand to continue its more important settlement of the West Bank, a settlement which means that the West Bank could never be a viable independent state, that it could exist as little more than a series of Bantustans. It left knowing that absent Israeli settlers in Gaza it could be freer to respond to attacks coming from Gaza without concern for those settlers being held hostage. It did so in order to give a facile nod in the direction of a sham peace process that was supposed to lead towards a Two States solution, but which no-one other than those who wanted to believe this fiction could have have been taken in by.
Yet, whatever cynical reasons there were for Israel's withdrawal, it did nevertheless withdraw. No longer could Gaza be described as "Occupied". And in reality, the consequence was that, what those that argue for a Two State solution want, was established. Gaza became if not a State, then certainly a proto state. Those that advocate a Two state solution don't like to admit that that is the case. because the history of what followed is precisely what I said twenty years ago would happen, and demonstrates not only why the Two State solution is no solution at all, but why it is a dangerous illusion that Marxists certainly should have no part in.
The consequence of the establishment of this proto state was not the strengthening of any democratic forces, not even bourgeois democratic forces let alone the strengthening of the Palestinian Labour movement, which might have held out the prospect of a more progressive solution. Nor did it result in the strengthening of any tendency towards more peaceful relations with Israel. On the contrary, as I had suggested twenty years ago, it had the complete opposite consequence. It led to the election of Hamas, and subsequently to a Civil War between Hamas and Fatah, which Hamas quickly won. It led to the inevitable strengthening within the borders of Gaza of those elements who recognise that a Two State solution will mean the continued subjection of Palestinians to outside forces, and those who will settle for nothing less than a Palestinian State occupying the whole of Israel. The removal of Israel led first to the consolidation of those elements represented by Hamas at the expense of Fatah, and from then on to the utilisation of the advantages of the proto state apparatus to strengthen their social and political position, and more importantly their military position. Israel is right to say that in the last two years Hamas has used the situation to organise itself into a more effective military machine. Just as I argued twenty years ago would be the inevitable consequence of the creation of a separate Palestinian State, under the conditions which pertain in Israel/Palestine. And after all as Lenin always said, the truth is always concrete. We have to look at what the demand for Two States means within the conditions that actually exist now in Israel/Palestine, and are likely to persist for some time, not within some set of ideal conditions for the establishment of such a separate state.
But, that history has other lessons. Having gone to great lengths to advocate democracy to the people of the Middle East, the US, was the first to reject the democratic elections in Palestine that brought Hamas to power. Again as I argued twenty years ago the Two States solution has nothing in common with the policies developed at the beginning of the last century by the Communist International in relation to the National Question or the Colonial Question (The CI recognised that these were two different questions, which most modern Leninists fail to do). In those cases what we had were viable potential states - Lenin actually opposed the idea of small countries seeking independence as reactionary. In the case of the National Question, which is the closest to Israel/Palestine we had different peoples subjected to the same State. In the case of the Colonial Question we had colonised people ruled by a Colonial State, which existed as a separate entity to the home State of the coloniser. Palestine certainly does not fall into this last category. It does not fall happily into the first because de jure the "Occupied Territories" exist as a separate geographical entity separate from Israel. De Facto the people of Palestine and Israel are subject to the rule of the same State, the Israeli State.
The states that the CI advocated should have self-determination were countries which could carve out for themselves such self-determination not as some legalistic fiction, but in reality, to be as independent as any other state can be within the context of a global capitalist economy. That was never going to be true of a Palestinian State. No Palestinian State could come into existence purely on the basis of a struggle by the Palestinians alone - even with the support of the International Labour movement. A Palestinian State could only come into existence with the agreement of Israel, and with the support of imperialism, and the bourgeois Arab states. The demand for Two States is an appeal to imperialism and bourgeois democracy, not a mobilising demand for the Palestinian and Jewish masses to mobilise around. The experience of the last two years demonstrates that clearly. US imperialism supports democracy only provided that democracy produces the results it desires. A basic element of self-determination is that a people should be free to elect the rulers it chooses. The US rejection of the election of Hamas shows thaat such a basic requirement of self-determination would never be granted to a Palestinian State.
No State can enjoy complete freedom within the context of a world capitalist economy, anymore than any company can enjoy such freedom of action. Yet, there is a difference between recognising this fact, and the fact that some States simply cannot function as viable economic units. A look at even some of the small states in Europe such as Andorra, or Lichtenstein, which have considerable advantages over a ;potential Palestinian State, shows that they are completely dependent upon their relations with their larger neighbours, and exist largely on the basis of acting as tax havens and such like capable thereby of sustaining their small populations. It is difficult to see how Palestine could exist as a viable entity even on this basis. The population of Gaza is no larger than that of a medium size British city. It is wholly dependent on Israel even for basic things such as electricity. The almost complete dismemberment of the West Bank, let alone its physical separation from Gaza means that even basic requirements of communication, and transport are so fragmented that it could never function effectively. Certainly, it could not do so without considerable support from Israel and other neighbouring states, without considerable financial support from imperialism. In what sense would this be a state enjoying self-determination?
The other experience of the last two years is in fact a demonstration of this. Hamas spokesmen initially defended their rocket attacks o the last few weeks by speaking of their struggle against Occupation. Clearly, this could not be occupation of Gaza because Israel had left two years ago! In fact, what the Hamas spokesmen meant was Israel's occupation of Israel! They seem to have realised that this was a weak argument, and have more recently changed the argument to focus on Israel's economic blockade of Gaza. There is little to be gained in looking at the rights and wrongs of that blockade. The point is that it demonstrates why Two States can never be a real solution. The USSR was blockaded by imperialism yet survived, so has Cuba.
Every Marxist must have sympathy with the Palestinians. Our sympathy is always with the oppressed not the oppressor, even where the oppressed - partly as a result of that oppression - appoint reactionary leaders of their struggle. But, we are not liberal moralisers. Our sympathy might lead us to explain rather than condemn the actions of the oppressed when they lash out through terroristic acts, such as indiscriminate rocket attacks, but it can never lead us either to support such terrorist tactics, or to give political support to the reactionary leaders. Our task is to provide real solutions for the oppressed, solutions that do not depend upon the good graces of imperialism, or bourgeois democracy, but rely upon the only thing the working masses can rely upon, themselves, and their collective strength. The fact that such solutions might be hard, might even not result in success does not change that duty.
The only solution for Israel/Palestine is one that flows through such self-activity of the Palestinian and Jewish masses, and it does have to be a joint struggle. Both have a great deal to gain from such a struggle. The Israeli state and the Palestinian terrorist leaders have a symbiotic relationship. The Palestinian leaders exist for no other reason than the ability to mobilise the masses around nationalistic demands and hatred of Jews. The Israeli State on the basis of those terrorist attacks exists within a context where normal politics can be suspended on the basis of the need to focus on security. Both Jewish and Palestinian workers lose out under such an arrangement. The demand for two States only perpetuates it.
The precondition for progress in Israel/Palestine is he development of joint Israeli/Palestinian workers organisations. The next requirement is a recognition that whatever the juridical situation the Palestinians live under the aegis of the Israeli State. In fact, there situation is really a grossly exaggerated equivalent of the situation that Northern Irish Catholics were in, deprived of equal rights with their Protestant neighbours. The first requirement for addressing the needs of the Northern Irish Catholics was not a demand for a separate state, or even joining with the Southern State, but was to address that immediate problem of inequality and oppression. It was what led naturally to the Civil Rights Movement. The basic demand for addressing the position for the Palestinians today is not a separate state, or even the establishment of a single secular state - which really means the destruction of Israel - but the creation of a Civil Rights Movement that can unite both Jewish and Palestinian workers, for a struggle for basic democratic and Civil Rights for all Palestinians, including the right to elect representatives to the Knesset. It should include the right as Lenin argued in similar conditions in Russia, for the greatest possible autonomy for clearly defined groups within specific geographical areas. This is the approach Lenin and the CI took in relation to the National Question as opposed to the Colonial Question. Lenin argued that we should advocate the establishment of new bourgeois states only in extreme cases. Instead, he argued for maintaining the unity of workers where they existed within a single state, and for developing a programme for building that unity where national oppression undermined it. Such an approach not only relies as Marxists should always do on the self-activity of the working class, but helps build the unity of workers across borders, it is a struggle they can wage and win with their own resources, and in doing so unites them against their real enemy, undermining both the Israeli bourgeois state and the reactionary nationalist Palestinian leaders. It also provides the kind of lead around which thee Arab masses throughout the Middle East can be enthuses, and launch their own struggles for democratic rights.
If, A separate Palestinian State is to be created then it will only be created on the basis of such a struggle as that set out above having been waged, a struggle which unites Palestinian and Jewish workers and changes the reality within which such a demand is raised.
PS.
There has been a lot of talk in recent years about asymmetric warfare - the notion that a weak group can wage war against a much more powerful force by using unconventional methods, for example Al Qaeda's use of planes to crash into the Twin Towers. Such notions are dangerous pseudo military science. They give weak groups such as the Palestinians false hope that they can win such struggles, or at least inflict sufficient damage on their opponent to cause them to give in. The fact remains that a large military power such as the US cannot be defeated by such means. All Marxists should oppose the current attacks by Israel on Gaza, but in truth it makes no more sense for Hamas to complain about Israel's response to its rocket attacks than it does for a six stone weakling to complain about the fact that a 14 stone man responds to their repeated ineffectual slaps, by hammering him into the ground. That in truth is the lunacy of asymmetrical warfare. Rather, the truth lies better with Sun Tsu who in the "Art of War", recommends avoiding such unequal struggles, and only fighting those battles you have already in reality won. The way to do that is by building the necessary forces by which such victory is assured.
29 comments:
On the two-state/one-state question, I recommend reading an essay by veteran Israeli Marxist Moshe Machover, found here:
http://www.amielandmelburn.org.uk/articles/moshe%20machover%20%202006lecture_b.pdf
Key paragraph:
“…clearly the crucial point is not the number of states, but whether the essential principles of genuine resolution are satisfied. For a two-state setup to satisfy them,Israel would have to be de-Zionized: transformed from an ethnocratic settler state into a democratic state of all its inhabitants. Also, resources – including land and water – would have to be divided justly and shared equitably by the two states. And neither of them should be allowed to dominate the other. On the other hand, a single state would have to be not merely democratic (and hence secular) but have a constitutional structure that recognizes the two national groups and gives them equal national rights and status.
But in fact none of this is feasible at present. Indeed, no genuine resolution is possible in the short or medium term, because of the enormous disparity in the balance of power.”
You say Gaza is not occupied, when Israel totally controls what goes in and what comes out, has warships off its coast and war planes over its skies and moves its tanks in and out with impunity.
And another thing why is it that the only people fighting western Capitalism are arab reactionaries -surely the Spartacus of their day.
Cluffy complains that I said that Gaza wasn't occupied. Actually, what I said was that Hamas argument that its reason for killing Israeli civilians with its rockets was Israeli Occupation did not stand up, because Israel had ended its Occupation. I went on to say that the reason for ending the Occupation was to provide Israel with a freer hand to launch the kinds of attacks it is now doing, and the better to continue its setllement of the West Bank.
It could hardly be described as me apologising for Israel as Cluffy seems to want to suggest.
My main point was that much as Marxists sympathise with the Palestinians that should not lead us to remain quiet about the reactionary politics of Hamas, or the dead end tactics that those politics lead to. Only mass politics, and that udner the circumstances will mean joint Jewish/Palestinian mass politics can provide a soluiton to the plight of the Palestinians, and Hamas rocket attacks on those Jews the Palestinains need to win the support of is the last means of achieving it.
Are reactionary Arab regimes the only people fighting Western Capitalism? I don't think so. There are plenty of workers in Western Capitalist countries doing so, there are plenty of socialists and Trade Unionists around the world who are not only having to fight Western Capitalism, but the reactionary type of regimes that Cluffy seems to think so much of.
Finally, even were that correct what conclusion does Cluffy want us to draw from it? Hirihito's Japan, and Hitler's Germany, along with Mussolini's Italy fought Western Capitalism, but I see no reason for giving them credit for doing so. The Feudal Aristocracy fought capitalism, but Marx and his followers certainly didn't advocate lining up with them because of it.
Boffy,
thankyou for the reply.
I am one of those socialist trade union activist you were talking about and the point is taken. Though obviously fighting for better pay and conditions is asking for more crumbs off the table and not necessarily "fighting for Socialism" , whereas planting roadside bombs is a definite statement of opposition.
When I talk about Arab reactionaries I mean Hezbollah, Hamas etc who are fighting western imperialist domination of their region and not the Saudi regime etc who collabarate with it. I do not see any superiority of western capitalism to Islamic fundamentalism, which is inherent in many of the pro Israel/Irag war mind sets and I don't see you criticizing Isreal as being reactionary, which makes me think you have a soft spot for the Bourgeoisie.
I don't suppose Marx knew the personal beliefs of Spartacus but he was still a hero of Marx. To believe these people should ignore their entire cultural/economic history and just think like we do seems to be most unmarxist.
Finally therefore, I would not compare Hitler/Mussolini to a Palestinian fighter and anyway I see those regimes as variants of Western Capitalism, out to occupy the world for the enrichment of a few individuals, not an accusation I would level at a Muslim cleric.
To Brian Clough. I don't see anything particularly socialist in planting roadside bombs either, particularly when they blow up workers, Trade Unionsts, socialists etc.
It may be a statement of opposition, but opposition to what, and in favour of what. As I said, the feudal aristocracy opposed Capitalism. I don't choose my allies on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
In fact, Hezbollah, and Hamas in particular are not fighting imperialist domination of the region. They are fighting partly at least to extend the sphere of influence in the region of their backers in Iran, which I would not describe as imperialist, but is clearly expansionist. They are also fighting a reactionary war against Israel with the intention of destroying Israel - which means a genocidal war against Jews, including Jewish workers, Trade Unionists, socialists etc. There is nothing progressive in such politics whatsoever.
Don't criticise Israel as reactionary???? I suggest you read the above article again, and my later article attacking Israel for the use of white phosphorous. My argument is that socialists need to advocate, and bring forward a programme for building the only force that can provide a progressive solution - the combined Jewish and Arab masses. Supporting reactionaries on either side who have no interest in such a unity is certainly not what socialists should be doing.
Actually, I do see a greater degree of progressiveness in western Capitalism compared to the mediaevalist, theocratic and feudal politics of the clerical-fascists of Hamas, or Hezbollah. That doesn't cause me to support western Capitalism or its agents in Israel, because I consider the self-activity of the working class as superior to both, and it is that working class I look to for a solution, and to which I direct my attention. You cannot do that and support the clerical-fascists who are the sworn enemies of the progressive forces within that working class, as well as of women, gays etc.
As for Spartacus, Marx certainly would not have advocated his politics or method of struggle in the 19th century!!!! The whole point of Marxism is that it is historically specific. What is progressive in one epoch becomes reactionary in another. As marx himself said Capitalism itself was one of the most progressive forces in history in the way it overthrew feudalism, and the way it transformed the means of production. It became reactionary once another type of society became possible. That is why it is progressive vis a vis the mediaevalism of the clerical-fascists.
There is only a differecne of degree between clerical-fascism and the fascism of Hitler or Mussolini. But, I do not equate a Palestinian fighter with Hamas or Hezbollah. I certainly do not equate Palestinains with those organisations as you do here. I am as I have done above quite capable of expressing solidarity with the Palestinians as a people, and supporting their basic democratic rights without supporting Hamas, which I beleive stands in the way of them acquiring those rights.
Moreover, as I said above Hamas and Hezbollah are proxies for Iran, and Iran is a capitalist society run by the mullahs you do not think capable of "occupy(ing) the world for the enrichment of a few individuals."
I'd suggest you ask the Iranian Trade Unionists fighting those very mullahs if they agree with you!
Boffy the neo-liberal,
I never claimed that these people were fighting for Socialism but I will not go into your delusions about Hamas just to stay stop watching BBC news.
Progressive politcs/ideas can emerge from struggle, do the Palestinians submit to Isreal or do they fight. (I wonder what Marx would have advised?).
Hamas, as a group fighting oppression, are by default progressive, whereas Israel, oppressing people they ethnically cleansed, are by default reactionary and serve as a great example to all reactionary regimes around the world. They are writing the book on how to suppress genuine opposition and dissent, all in the name of "security" -now theres a reactionary word.
Your idea for some sort of Hands across the wall is idealism worthy of Hobbes. The occupation has led to a mindset where Israelis see themselves as superior to the Palestians, no mass struggle could possibly occur under these conditions. Get rid of the occupation first and maybe then some progress can be made.
How is western capitalism more progressive, name me a single capitalist system where socialist ideas have taken hold and triumphed, the people who have fought and died for the new science have been the oppressed and dispossed or peoples fighting colonialism -i.e. people like the Palestinians.
As for the feudal aristocrats, who owns most of the land in the UK today? -some fight that was!
The Palestians need more than our sympathy they need our unqualified support.
“Boffy the neo-liberal,”
If you make statements not backed up by an argument to justify them they become simply insults. I don’t stoop to respond to insults.
”I never claimed that these people were fighting for Socialism but I will not go into your delusions about Hamas just to stay stop watching BBC news.”
Delusions? Read the Hamas Constitution, look at the way it attacks Gays and women in Gaza! Its first statements were about Israeli Occupation. They didn’t mean occupation of Gaza, from where Israel had removed itself, but Israel’s Occupation of Israel. On the recent demonstrations not just the Islamists, but their hand-maidens of the SWP and others chanted about the establishment of a Palestinian State “from the river to the sea.” That could only come about by a genocidal war to destroy Israel. And it is a fact that Hamas and Hezbollah are financed and armed by Iran, which seeks to extend its influence in the region.
”Progressive politcs/ideas can emerge from struggle, do the Palestinians submit to Isreal or do they fight. (I wonder what Marx would have advised?).”
Yes, progressive politics CAN emerge from struggle, but it is not a necessity. A first condition is the existence of a political organisation that can win the leadership of that struggle, and thereby infuse those progressive ideas into the masses. It certainly cannot come from the leadership of those masses by a reactionary organisation such as Hamas, or the kowtowing to those politics by those who could offer the masses a progressive alternative.
As for what Marx would have advised certainly not what you propose. In similar circumstances in the 19th century both Marx and Engels argued that certain small nationalities had been by-passed by history, that they were not now capable of forming their own nation state, and that to demand such was itself a reactionary utopia. In addition, they argued that, unable to find the resources for such a project, internally, such nationalities allied themselves with the most reactionary external forces in the hope of bringing about such a state. The Palestinians find themselves in such a position today, looking to reactionary regimes in Syria, Iran, and previously to Saddam Hussein in Iraq.
No one is talking about whether the Palestinians should fight or simply play dead. The question though for a Marxist is on what basis, around what programme, for what goal should they fight. It is all very well for you sitting in a cosy house in Britain to tell Palestinians to lay down their life for some ill-thought out cause, that usually amounts to nothing more than western moralisers wanting to inflict retribution on Israel for something that incenses them for what happened 60 years ago. There are always plenty of people telling someone else to get a beating by standing up to a much bigger and stronger opponent.
As you ask, Marx would have advised what I advise now. Look at his, and in particular Engels writings on Ireland, or on the question of the “Non-Historic Peoples”. There you will find them not supporting the kind of reactionary nationalism you argue for here, but for the building of workers unity across borders, for the extension of democratic rights, and for a programme that is based on the class struggle.
”Hamas, as a group fighting oppression, are by default progressive, whereas Israel, oppressing people they ethnically cleansed, are by default reactionary and serve as a great example to all reactionary regimes around the world. They are writing the book on how to suppress genuine opposition and dissent, all in the name of "security" -now theres a reactionary word.”
What Marxism is this nonsense? If the BNP leads a strike does that make that strike automatically progressive then? I am happy to conclude that the struggle of Palestinians as an oppressed people is progressive, which is why I support their struggle against Israel as an oppressor. But, that does not lead me to conclude that every basis of that struggle is progressive! In so far as it is fought on the basis of some other oppression it is reactionary, and any Marxist worthy of the name will oppose those aspects openly. No Marxist could support a struggle that replaces one oppression with another. The Palestinian people are not Hamas, and Hamas are not the Palestinian people. Supporting the struggle of the Palestinian people does not at all imply supporting Hamas, far from it.
Leon Trotsky, wrote about similar scenarios.
In relation to Japanese imperialism in China, he wrote that Marxists would support the struggle against Japanese Imperialism even though that struggle was being led by the fascists of Chianh Kai Shek’s Kuomintang. But, he was far from thereby advocating support for the KMT!!!! He argued that it would be possible to fight alongside it – he was wholly opposed to the fairly sizeable Chinese Communist Party being a part of the KMT, which the Stalinists advocated, and which led to the massacre by the KMT of the Chinese Communists – provided that they kept a clear political and organisational separation from it. Moreover, this was just a tactic, a means by which the Communists could win the leadership of that struggle in order to be able to ultimately deal with the KMT itself.
Similarly, he wrote,
“I will take the most simple and obvious example. In Brazil there now reigns a semi fascist regime that every revolutionary can only view with hatred. Let us assume, however, that on the morrow England enters into a military conflict with Brazil. I ask you on whose side of the conflict will the working class be? I will answer for myself personally—in this case I will be on the side of “fascist” Brazil against “democratic” Great Britain. Why? Because in the conflict between them it will not be a question of democracy or fascism. If England should be victorious, she will put another fascist in Rio de Janeiro and will place double chains on Brazil. If Brazil on the contrary should be victorious, it will give a mighty impulse to national and democratic consciousness of the country and will lead to the overthrow of the Vargas dictatorship.”
So, Trotsky was quite capable, as am I, of arguing for support for fascist Brazil, just as I am capable of arguing for support for the Palestinians despite Hamas, without in any way confusing that with support for the Vargas Dictatorship, without any such unMarxist nonsense as saying that because it was leading a struggle against oppression it magically became “progressive”.
”Your idea for some sort of Hands across the wall is idealism worthy of Hobbes. The occupation has led to a mindset where Israelis see themselves as superior to the Palestians, no mass struggle could possibly occur under these conditions. Get rid of the occupation first and maybe then some progress can be made.”
The Occupation of Gaza was ended. It resulted in the election of Hamas, the creation of a totalitarian state there as it launched a coup to oust Fatah, and the use of the interim to build up its military power and arsenal of rockets supplied by Iran. Neither the Palestinians nor western socialists have the power to end the current incursions into Gaza, or the blockade or other actions by the Israeli state until Israel is ready to do so. I am not prepared to act as an arm chair General Haig, sending brave Palestinians to their death in trying to bring that about. The job of a Marxist is to provide workers and the oppressed with solutions that they can bring about with their own resources not to simply keep calling for more volunteers to “go over the top” as you seem prepared to do.
If you think that workers unity as a solution to their problems is an “idealism worthy of Hobbes” then clearly you are not a Marxist, because without that perspective socialism is not possible. If we adopt your perspective all working class struggle becomes an impossible dream because the working class is massively divided and layered. It is not only some Israeli’s who think they are superior to Palestinians, but some Palestinians who think they are superior to Jews, which is why they are depicted as rats and so on in the propaganda. It is men who think they are superior to women, straight people who think they are superior to homosexuals, white people in Briatin who believe they are superior to black and Asian people. It is craft workers and skilled workers who think they are superior to unskilled workers, it is workers in one firm who think they are in competition with workers in another firm and so on.
The whole point of Marxism is that it looks beyond those immediate schisms within the working class that class society necessarily fosters and reproduces, and o look to how to build the underlying solidarity and commonality of interest between workers against their main common enemy. But, as I said as you can’t do that you clearly aren’t a Marxist, or even much of a socialist.
“How is western capitalism more progressive, name me a single capitalist system where socialist ideas have taken hold and triumphed, the people who have fought and died for the new science have been the oppressed and dispossed or peoples fighting colonialism -i.e. people like the Palestinians.”
I spelled out on what basis, the same basis that Marx spelled out Capitalism is progressive vis a vis feudalism and mediaevalism. To the extent that the clerical-fascists of Hezbollah and Hamas are mediaevalists they represent a step backwards from Capitalism, not forwards. That doesn’t require Capitalism to be socialism, it simply requires it not to be feudalism. The Palestinians are not “fighting for the new science”, certainly Hamas is not, were you to argue for it in Gaza you would likely get a bullet in the back of the head from the nearest Hamas militiaman.
”As for the feudal aristocrats, who owns most of the land in the UK today? -some fight that was!”
Who holds political power in Britain today? Who controls the state today? Who owns the majority of productive wealth in the means of production, including in the land? Capitalists not feudal aristocrats.
”The Palestians need more than our sympathy they need our unqualified support.”
I agree. But they need also to be told when their struggle is going down the wrong path, they need to be offered as Marx said to Ruge a correct programme on which to struggle. That will not come from Hamas or other reactionary organisations or from those that simply attach themselves to Hamas reactionary wagon. Nor will it come from latter day First World War General Haigs who want to be the donkeys leading lions into meaningless slaughter largely to satisfy their own hatred of Israel for something that happened 60 years ago.
Just a few observations from your previous post,
I say Boffy the neo-liberal because your position is no different from Bush and all his supporters world wide who see this as a clash of "Civilizations". The way you talk about the middle east as a hotbed of genocidal, clerical-fascist theocratic medievalists would make some people think that the West isn't doing enough to stop them. You talk about reactionary regimes like Syria but what about reactionary regimes like the USA?
The Western war mongers use this language to persuade the masses to go along with it -if for once the masses didn't swallow their rubbish, would that not be a progressive sign?
You only seem to criticise Israel for use of White Phosphorous etc but not the concept of Israel. Infact what more "Progressive" a weapon could you get, using the latest production techniques applied to science to wreak maximum havoc, so much better than Hamas and their "reactionary" old fashioned rockets.
I'am not the one sitting in my comfortable home lecturing the Palestinians, you are!
This is not a battle between 2 nations it is a battle between Oppressor and dispossesed. The election of Hamas is a reality of the how the Israeli occupation has developed. To end this reality end the occupation.
Nowhere do I support reactionary nationalism, I would like to see one secular workers state shared by Jews, Muslims and Christians etc but I see Israel as the barrier to that and not the Palestinians and believe many steps need to be taken before that can even be considered let alone become a reality. So I say that your analysis is idealism in the current circumstances and to get workers unity you must ged rid of the idea that western workers are better than third world workers which is an inevitable outcome of colonialism and conquest. I see that mentality everywhere, call it white supremacy lite, but its one hell of an obstacle to socialism and it is a problem of western workers as they are inflicted with the oppressors mindset. You can't look beyond that as you suggest but must meet it head on and challenge it.
Since when did the BNP organise strikes, you really need to give a better example of a BNP struggle.
Anyway I don't say all struggles are progressive just the ones fighting oppression, a struggle fighting for the expulsion of immigrants would not be one that I support.
Well Marx and Engels must have been wrong then because the Jews got their state despite it being a reactionary utopia!
So Leon Trotsky said that your enemy's enemy can be your friend just as long as he's not a Palestinian.
The dukes and Earls did not go away as there was as much collaborating as fighting between these classes, this issue is an example of your misuse of Marxism in the context of the Palestinian situation, Hamas are not up against a new order but an old one.
Sixty years ago is not a long time but its what is happening right now and every year since that is making me angry and you cooly analyitical.
”I say Boffy the neo-liberal because your position is no different from Bush and all his supporters world wide who see this as a clash of "Civilizations".”
You can only conclude that my position is no different than that of Bush if you ignore pretty much everything I have said, and only focus on the fact that I refuse to give political support to the clerical-fascists of Hamas. Where have I said that this is a clash of civilisations. Can you give me one single quote. On the contrary it is you that presents it this way saying that “Israelis think they are better than Palestinians.”
I have argued against both Israel and the clerical-fascists, and argued instead for a working class solution achieved by the working class, through proletarian struggle. Could you show us the speech or article by George Bush arguing for such politics?
“The way you talk about the middle east as a hotbed of genocidal, clerical-fascist theocratic medievalists would make some people think that the West isn't doing enough to stop them.”
Well yes they COULD come to that conclusion if they didn’t actually read what I have said, which opposes any solution based on a reliance on imperialism, on the Israeli State, or the Arab bourgeoisie. Alternatively, they might have read what I said, but lack the political will or ability to understand political arguments. I don’t know which of those categories you fall into.
“You talk about reactionary regimes like Syria but what about reactionary regimes like the USA?”
What about them? You say this as though my articles are not full of criticism of the role of the USA!!!!
“The Western war mongers use this language to persuade the masses to go along with it -if for once the masses didn't swallow their rubbish, would that not be a progressive sign?”
Not, if in doing so they lined themselves up as you do with even worse reactionaries. Your political method is rather like, “McDonalds is a terrible reactionary company, let’s go to Burger King instead.”
”You only seem to criticise Israel for use of White Phosphorous etc but not the concept of Israel.”
Of course, I criticise the concept of Israel, as I criticise the concept of any bourgeois state. But, I am in favour of bourgeois states being replaced by workers states, through the action of workers, not the replacement of bourgeois states by even more reactionary clerical or mediaevalist states, brought about over the bones of workers by a bunch of reactionaries.
“In fact what more "Progressive" a weapon could you get, using the latest production techniques applied to science to wreak maximum havoc, so much better than Hamas and their "reactionary" old fashioned rockets.”
I’m not sure what point you are trying to make here other than to demonstrate that you do not understand the concept of “progressive” as understood by Marxists.
”I' am not the one sitting in my comfortable home lecturing the Palestinians, you are!”
The difference is that you are cheering on from the sides encouraging a foolhardy venture that will get Palestinians killed for very little progressive benefit. I am trying to provide them with an alternative to such a doomed project.
”This is not a battle between 2 nations it is a battle between Oppressor and dispossesed. The election of Hamas is a reality of the how the Israeli occupation has developed. To end this reality end the occupation.”
There are two nationalities here. I agree it is a battle between oppressor and oppressed, which is why I am on the side of the Palestinians, why I oppose the Israeli attacks on the West Bank. I also agree that the election of Hamas is at least in part due to the fact that the project of a Two State solution is a dead duck, and a reaction to continued Israeli oppression. In large part that is the crux of my argument. But, when you say “To end this reality end the Occupation”, you mirror the argument of Sean Matgamna of the AWL, who says that Israel SHOULD end its attacks and so on. The fact, is that neither I, you, nor the Palestinians have the power to end the Israeli attacks on Gaza. There is little point calling for something you do not have the power to bring about.
The point is to create the force, which can bring that about, and in the process provide a progressive solution to the problems of Palestinians and Jews. The only force capable of doing that is the Jewish and Palestinian working class. But, you will not create that force by following your nationalistic program which sets Palestinians against Jews, which relies on reactionaries who want to wipe the Jews off the face of the Earth. The working class force capable of providing such a solution can only be built in opposition to those reactionaries as much as against the Israeli State.
”Nowhere do I support reactionary nationalism, I would like to see one secular workers state shared by Jews, Muslims and Christians etc but I see Israel as the barrier to that and not the Palestinians and believe many steps need to be taken before that can even be considered let alone become a reality.”
You cannot force people to live in a Workers State. A Workers State can only be created if the majority of Workers wish to create it. We are so far away from such a solution in Israel/Palestine that to raise it as a solution is meaningless. You cannot force people who already live in their own state to live in some other state either, and that is what you wish to force on the Jews in Israel. So yes, in that sense they are a barrier to your solution. But, what flows from that? You can, as I argue, attempt to win over the majority of Jewish workers to the idea of a single secular state, by attempting to build solidarity between Jewish and Palestinian workers for a programme of basic democratic rights for all Palestinians – a programme which despite your previous statements, many Jews would support – or else you can adopt the policy you appear to favour of trying to force Jews to agree to such a state being imposed on them. Were it possible to achieve such a task it would be a reactionary programme, which no socialist could support, because it would mean in reality replacing the oppression of Palestinians with the oppression of the Jews you had forced into that state they did not want. In reality, it is worse than reactionary, because there is no force capable of bringing that about. It would require a war against Israel by all of the reactionary Arab States around it, it would be a genocidal war, and on past experiences Israel would win it hands down.
“So I say that your analysis is idealism in the current circumstances and to get workers unity you must get rid of the idea that western workers are better than third world workers which is an inevitable outcome of colonialism and conquest. I see that mentality everywhere, call it white supremacy lite, but its one hell of an obstacle to socialism and it is a problem of western workers as they are inflicted with the oppressors mindset. You can't look beyond that as you suggest but must meet it head on and challenge it.”
If its as ingrained as you suggest you cannot change it by “meeting it head on”. It is precisely, only by building solidarity between workers across various divides, around programmes that unite them in their common interests against their common enemy that you can “meet it head on”, and create the conditions under which those divisions can be undermined, and defeated.
”Since when did the BNP organise strikes, you really need to give a better example of a BNP struggle.”
The BNP have organised a union “Solidarity”. If they call a strike against an oppressive boss, what will your position be?
“Anyway I don't say all struggles are progressive just the ones fighting oppression, a struggle fighting for the expulsion of immigrants would not be one that I support.”
Yet that is what Hamas want to do in Israel, to eject the Jews.
”Well Marx and Engels must have been wrong then because the Jews got their state despite it being a reactionary utopia!”
As far as I recall I said nothing about Marx and Engels and Israel.
”So Leon Trotsky said that your enemy's enemy can be your friend just as long as he's not a Palestinian.”
Trotsky never said “my enemy’s enemy is my friend”, he argued against such simplistic notions. That was precisely the point, but yet again you seem to have either not read it properly or not understood it.
”The dukes and Earls did not go away as there was as much collaborating as fighting between these classes, this issue is an example of your misuse of Marxism in the context of the Palestinian situation, Hamas are not up against a new order but an old one.”
The Dukes and Earls were forced to become Capitalists themselves because the Capitalists defeated them, and replaced their political power with the political power of the bourgeoisie. I’d say the peasants revolt, the English Civil War, the Glorious Revolution, and even some of the battles such as Peterloo were examples of serious fighting. The landlord class tried to hold on to its power and lost. Marx certainly was not in favour of supporting them just because they were also the enemy of the Capitalists.
Hamas are up against an old order, true, that of Capitalism, but they are not up against it as a new order themselves. On the contrary, not only are they rooted in the Palestinian bourgeoisie, and the enemy of the Palestinian workers and socialists, but their clerical politics is itself rooted in mediaeval mysticism. It is a thoroughly reactionary organisation. It stands in relation to the Israeli State in exactly the same relation as the feudal aristocracy stood to the bourgeoisie, and it is the duty of every socialist to describe it as such , and to warn workers away from it, and towards the need to build their own workers organisations in opposition to it.
”Sixty years ago is not a long time but its what is happening right now and every year since that is making me angry and you cooly analyitical.”
The job of a Marxist is to be coolly analytical. Only on that basis can workers blood spilt be minimised, and the most effective solution provided.
Boffy,
On the progressive weapon comment I was lampooning your earlier comment that you believe that by criticising Israel for its use of white phosphorous meant you were calling it reactionary, which is utter nonsense.
With the Marx and Engels comment I was making an analogy, I'll draw pictures next time.
If the west is so much more progressive than the likes the of Iran etc then why haven't these people demanded to be allowed into the shiny neon lit promised land like the peoples of eastern europe?
Your methodology is very similar to the right, look back over your writings. You have an explanation for why Israel acts in the way it does, yes you criticise it but do it the courtesy of explaining its actions in the context of the current conditions but you don't extend this courtesy to Hamas, who you just write off as genocidal maniacs or fascists( A word you use in the most cavalier way, very similar to Christopher Hitchens). You do not ask why they exist, or why they act in the way they do or explain the material conditions from which they arose and therefore the conclusions you draw are flawed. Just quoting the Hamas constitution will simply not do. Infact the struggle against oppression by Hamas could lead it into a more progressive direction and it did sign the Arab peace plan, which said nothing as far as I'm aware about the genocidal killing of every Jew.
It's why the right use terms like terrorists, it dehumanises it's opposition and provides cheap propaganda, I have to wonder why this bias exists in your writings.
A crucial difference between the admittedly odious regimes like Iran and Syria is that they are not Imperialist like the USA and Britain, try asking the Sweat shop labour who produce most of the wests goods who are the most reactionary.
I'am not asking the masses to line up with Hamas, I'm asking them to question the motives of the ruling class. If Marx was right and socialism will begin in the west then the masses need to stop worrying about clerics in Iran and turn their gaze to the people who ensalve them, I can't see that happening while ever the colonial mindet exists, I therefore put getting rid of that mindset at the top of the agenda as I believe the main condition that prevents international worker unity is colonialism and its disasterous consequences.
A defeat for the bourgoisie in the east could lead to its defeat in the west, didn't Marx support the relatively reactionary Catholic fenians against the British for that reason?
So for the meantime we will accept that the Palestinains will be forced to live as they do now . We will enforce this reaction upon them, we will ignore the shift to the right in Israel, we will allow Israel to expand ever more. We will not make our opposition heard because we can do nothing about it. When appartheid South Arica was at its height, it wasn't workers unity that brought about its collapse but in part so called radicals like me speaking out and promoting struggle. Is the rainbow state reactionary because it was imposed on the white working class?
If any workers take action against a boss who was oppressing them then I would have to support the workers, I will not make conditions to the workers for my support. Remember that behind every bourgoisie prejudice lays a bourgoisie interest.
Please note the following from Marx's critique of the Gotha programme, over 200 years after the english civil war,
"In present-day society, the instruments of labor are the monopoly of the landowners (the monopoly of property in land is even the basis of the monopoly of capital) and the capitalists. In the passage in question, the Rules of the International do not mention either one or the other class of monopolists. They speak of the "monopolizer of the means of labor, that is, the sources of life." The addition, "sources of life", makes it sufficiently clear that land is included in the instruments of labor.
The correction was introduced because Lassalle, for reasons now generally known, attacked only the capitalist class and not the landowners. In England, the capitalist class is usually not even the owner of the land on which his factory stands. "
I make the point about the Feudal Aristocrats because it was an analogy you drew and has I already pointed out, was an incorrect analogy.
I don't want to pretend that my primary motive for supporting the Palestinians is an emotional human reaction to their obvious suffering and the sadistic nature of the occupation, after all its these emotions that that see the injustice of Capitalism and the Justice of Socialism.
“On the progressive weapon comment I was lampooning your earlier comment that you believe that by criticising Israel for its use of white phosphorous meant you were calling it reactionary, which is utter nonsense.”
But, I haven’t just called Israel reactionary for its use of white phosphorous. I have condemned its attack on Gaza, I have said that under such conditions every socialists sympathy lies with the Palestinians as the oppressed not with Israel as the oppressor. You ignore that because nothing less than subservience to the reactionaries of Hamas appears good enough for you, and that my friend really would be for a socialist utter nonsense.
”With the Marx and Engels comment I was making an analogy, I'll draw pictures next time.”
What analogy? They said that it was reactionary to demand new class states for small nationalities that lacked the internal resources to create those states, and refused to support calls for such. But, some of the states they said would be impossible such as one for the Czechs, were established. History and circumstances moved on after Marx and Engels deaths, a new reality was established which made the establishment of those states possible. They wouldn’t were they alive today demand those states be smashed because at one time they thought the struggle for their establishment was reactionary. I would not have argued for the establishment of the State of Israel as a solution to the problems of the Jews, and believe that the demand was reactionary, and bound to lead to some of the problems that exist today. But, it was established, it exists, and it would be reactionary now to demand that it be destroyed simply because the demand for its establishment was previously a reactionary demand. I believe that the demand for Two States is similarly reactionary for reasons I have given elsewhere. But were such a state to be established and become a viable state in the way that Israel has become I would not then argue for its destruction, other than in the way I want all bourgeois states to be destroyed by the establishment by workers of their own states!
”If the west is so much more progressive than the likes the of Iran etc then why haven't these people demanded to be allowed into the shiny neon lit promised land like the peoples of eastern europe?”
They do, just look at the struggle of workers in Iran. The problem is that the totalitarian state established by your friends the mullahs, shoots them, bans their trade unions and strikes, and imprisons them, not to mention bans socialist parties from standing in elections and so on!!!!
”Your methodology is very similar to the right, look back over your writings. You have an explanation for why Israel acts in the way it does, yes you criticise it but do it the courtesy of explaining its actions in the context of the current conditions but you don't extend this courtesy to Hamas, who you just write off as genocidal maniacs or fascists( A word you use in the most cavalier way, very similar to Christopher Hitchens). You do not ask why they exist, or why they act in the way they do or explain the material conditions from which they arose and therefore the conclusions you draw are flawed.”
My method is the Marxist method. Look at Marx’s writings its starting point is to explain the actions of protagonists in struggles of all kinds, to explain the historical, economic and social roots of why different groups act in particular ways. You can understand nothing unless you proceed in that way. Perhaps that’s why you don’t really understand what is going on in Israel/Palestine, and why you can offer no solutions other than emotional outbursts. In explaining why Israel acts in various ways I have not in any way JUSTIFIED its actions, quite the opposite. And I have explained the roots of Hamas rise to power, including in my last response to you. I could just as well explain the rise to power of Hitler’s Nazis in the conditions which France and Britain imposed through the Versailles Treaty on Germany, and the degradation that it inflicted on the German people. But explaining, that root of the rise of Nazism in no way compels me to justify the Nazis or to support their struggle against those they argued were oppressing Germany under the Versailles Treaty. The fact that I can understand why an oppressed people, in the absence of effective Workers Parties, get dragged along on the coat-tails of reactionary organisations neither changes my support for such peoples, in their fight against their oppression, nor compels me to give support to the reactionaries who have taken advantage of the situation.
As far as the term fascist is concerned I have used the term “clerical-fascist”, which is an established Marxist term for such reactionary religious parties. It was first used against the clerical fascist in Austria of the late 1920’s early 1930’s, who were in that case Catholic, and who opened the door for Hitler into Austria.
“Just quoting the Hamas constitution will simply not do. In fact the struggle against oppression by Hamas could lead it into a more progressive direction and it did sign the Arab peace plan, which said nothing as far as I'm aware about the genocidal killing of every Jew.”
I’d say that if an organisation has in its Constitution the destruction of Israel that is a pretty good guide to what its aims are. How you can simply dismiss it I really don’t know. How can the struggle against Israel on the reactionary, nationalistic program that Hamas fights lead it into a “progressive direction”. Please tell us the mechanism for this. Can you give us any historical precedents for such a transformation? The fact that HAMAS signed the peace plan means nothing in terms of its attitude to Jews, and its desire to wipe Israel off the map, which could only be done via a genocidal war.
“It's why the right use terms like terrorists, it dehumanises it's opposition and provides cheap propaganda, I have to wonder why this bias exists in your writings.”
Perhaps for the reason Lenin described the actions of terrorist organisations and individuals such as his own brother Alexander. It is not bias to describe a terrorist act such as lobbing a rocket into a civilian neighbourhood for what it is. Its called telling the truth. Explaining why such actions can never forge the kind of working class unity necessary to provide a progressive solution is also called telling the truth to workers. It is the starting point to rejecting such tactics and adopting a proletarian strategy. If you can show me which rightists advocate such a proletarian perspective I would be very happy.
”A crucial difference between the admittedly odious regimes like Iran and Syria is that they are not Imperialist like the USA and Britain, try asking the Sweat shop labour who produce most of the wests goods who are the most reactionary.”
Fair point, and if Britain or the US were attempting to overthrow the government in Syria or Iran, in order to establish a colonial regime there I would be unreservedly on the side of those countries despite their governments, in the same way that Trotsky argued he would support “fascist” Brazil against Britain. But, Trotsky wouldn’t politically support the fascists in Brazil, and I wouldn’t support the reactionaries in Iran or Syria. As part of a struggle against domination you might find yourself fighting alongside them, might even under exceptional circumstances make a military alliance with them, but that is not at all “supporting” them, and given the nature of these regimes and forces I doubt even that would be possible in practice.
There is a difference between a State, and the political forces which have control of that State, which you do not seem able to grasp. I can identify that an imperialist state in conflict with a non-imperialist state is the more reactionary, but that does not lead me to conclude that the fascists in the one are more progressive than the bourgeois democrats in the other. We were discussing whether bourgeois democracy was more or less reactionary than the clerical-fascist groups such as HAMAS. Given the mediaevalist nature of HAMAS it is not more progressive than bourgeois democracy it is more reactionary. But, is the struggle of the Palestinian people progressive vis a vis their oppression by Israel? Of course.
”I am not asking the masses to line up with Hamas,”
Yes you are. That thought runs through everything you have said.
“I'm asking them to question the motives of the ruling class. If Marx was right and socialism will begin in the west then the masses need to stop worrying about clerics in Iran and turn their gaze to the people who enslave them,”
I can’t disagree with that, but it really gives no solution to Palestinian workers and Jewish workers trapped in a never ending hell-hole of communal violence, and certainly no solution to the immediate situation.
“I can't see that happening while ever the colonial mindset exists, I therefore put getting rid of that mindset at the top of the agenda as I believe the main condition that prevents international worker unity is colonialism and its disasterous consequences.
A defeat for the bourgoisie in the east could lead to its defeat in the west, didn't Marx support the relatively reactionary Catholic fenians against the British for that reason?”
Actually, although Marx was opposed to Britain keeping Ireland in chains, he also favoured a Unitary British State including Ireland. He argued that if that wasn’t possible then some kind of Federation would be the next best thing. He began by wanting to maintain the unity of the working class British and Irish, and for a struggle not on the basis of nationalism, but a class struggle against their common oppressor.
Colonialism long since ceased to exist. Except for Iraq, where imperialism has forces stationed in the East it does so with the full acceptance of those states ruling classes. I would accept that part of the cause of racism is the heritage of past Colonialism, but as a Marxist I believe that ideas are a function of material conditions. You cannot get rid of racism within the white working class, simply by some verbal assault on it. And the implication of your argument in relation to Israel/Palestine would be that Black and Asian workers in say Britain or France, should – because you believe unity between them is utopian – what blow up white workers cars, launch rockets from black and Asian neighbourhoods into white working class Council estates as part of their fight against oppression? No. If you want to defeat racism and the legacy of colonialism, the starting point is to build working class unity against the common enemy, not foster enmity between different sections of the class which is the basis of your politics.
”So for the meantime we will accept that the Palestinains will be forced to live as they do now . We will enforce this reaction upon them, we will ignore the shift to the right in Israel, we will allow Israel to expand ever more. We will not make our opposition heard because we can do nothing about it.”
What nonsense. Who has said that we shouldn’t condemn Israel for its actions? Who has said that we have to accept the condition of the Palestinians? I certainly haven’t. Of course, Israel should be condemned for its actions, and I have done so. My point is that condemnation is not enough. Don’t get angry get even. You let your anger get in the way of looking for a solution. I certainly have not said that we should accept the position of the Palestinians, on the contrary I have said that it is necessary to launch a campaign for basic civil rights for all Palestinians inside and out of Israel, including the right to have autonomous self-government, to elect representatives to the Knesset etc. Those are practical solutions for the here and now which both Jews and Palestinians could support and mobilise around, as opposed to pie in the sky solutions such as a Two State solution, or some military defeat of Israel to establish a supposedly secular state, which would inevitably be not secular at all.
“When apartheid South Arica was at its height, it wasn't workers unity that brought about its collapse but in part so called radicals like me speaking out and promoting struggle. Is the rainbow state reactionary because it was imposed on the white working class?”
Nonsense. Capital decided that the overhead costs of apartheid were too high, and that it could continue to exploit South African workers more effectively under a compliant black government. It was right, it could, and it has. But South Africa has nothing to do with Israel and Palestine. The whites in South Africa constituted a tiny privileged minority of a single state. Suppose there had been a fairly equal number of whites in South Africa to blacks, and that the ANC had said that it was going to reclaim white farms because they had been expropriated from blacks in the past etc. What do you think the result would have been then, particularly if those whites were extremely well armed, with a large army. Would you have been in favour of a war to force them into such a state then, given the carnage there would be on both sides? I certainly wouldn’t, I would have been in favour of what I propose now, for joint struggle by black and white workers against a common enemy, the capitalist class be it black or white. Even so, if the South African state began to oppress white workers then I would be in favour of defending their basic democratic rights whether they had been part of a previous exploiting minority or not.
”If any workers take action against a boss who was oppressing them then I would have to support the workers, I will not make conditions to the workers for my support. Remember that behind every bourgoisie prejudice lays a bourgoisie interest.”
You dodged the question. The question was would such a strike make the BNP leadership of this union progressive?
”Please note the following from Marx's critique of the Gotha programme, over 200 years after the english civil war,”
….
I make the point about the Feudal Aristocrats because it was an analogy you drew and has I already pointed out, was an incorrect analogy.”
But the quote does not change my argument one iota. Read the Communist Manifesto for a description of Marx’s view in summary. The Landlord class was supplanted as ruling class by the Capitalist class. Its mode of production based on Rent from the ownership of Land, of Monopoly production via the Guild System was supplanted by the Capitalist Mode of Production based on the ownership of Capital. Its political rule, and control of the State was replaced by the rule of the bourgeoisie. The landlord class fought tooth and nail all along the way to prevent the bourgeoisie from doing so.
In the manifesto Marx describes this “reactionary socialism”
“Owing to their historical position, it became the vocation of the aristocracies of France and England to write pamphlets against modern bourgeois society. In the French Revolution of July 1830, and in the English reform agitation[A], these aristocracies again succumbed to the hateful upstart. Thenceforth, a serious political struggle was altogether out of the question. A literary battle alone remained possible. But even in the domain of literature the old cries of the restoration period had become impossible.(1)
In order to arouse sympathy, the aristocracy was obliged to lose sight, apparently, of its own interests, and to formulate their indictment against the bourgeoisie in the interest of the exploited working class alone. Thus, the aristocracy took their revenge by singing lampoons on their new masters and whispering in his ears sinister prophesies of coming catastrophe.
In this way arose feudal Socialism: half lamentation, half lampoon; half an echo of the past, half menace of the future; at times, by its bitter, witty and incisive criticism, striking the bourgeoisie to the very heart’s core; but always ludicrous in its effect, through total incapacity to comprehend the march of modern history.
The aristocracy, in order to rally the people to them, waved the proletarian alms-bag in front for a banner. But the people, so often as it joined them, saw on their hindquarters the old feudal coats of arms, and deserted with loud and irreverent laughter.
One section of the French Legitimists and “Young England” exhibited this spectacle.
In pointing out that their mode of exploitation was different to that of the bourgeoisie, the feudalists forget that they exploited under circumstances and conditions that were quite different and that are now antiquated. In showing that, under their rule, the modern proletariat never existed, they forget that the modern bourgeoisie is the necessary offspring of their own form of society.
For the rest, so little do they conceal the reactionary character of their criticism that their chief accusation against the bourgeois amounts to this, that under the bourgeois régime a class is being developed which is destined to cut up root and branch the old order of society.
What they upbraid the bourgeoisie with is not so much that it creates a proletariat as that it creates a revolutionary proletariat.
In political practice, therefore, they join in all coercive measures against the working class; and in ordinary life, despite their high-falutin phrases, they stoop to pick up the golden apples dropped from the tree of industry, and to barter truth, love, and honour, for traffic in wool, beetroot-sugar, and potato spirits.(2)
As the parson has ever gone hand in hand with the landlord, so has Clerical Socialism with Feudal Socialism.
Nothing is easier than to give Christian asceticism a Socialist tinge. Has not Christianity declaimed against private property, against marriage, against the State? Has it not preached in the place of these, charity and poverty, celibacy and mortification of the flesh, monastic life and Mother Church? Christian Socialism is but the holy water with which the priest consecrates the heart-burnings of the aristocrat.”
Marx gave no support to such reactionaries even though they opposed capitalism, because they opposed it from the perspective of the past not of the future, just as HAMAS does.
“I don't want to pretend that my primary motive for supporting the Palestinians is an emotional human reaction to their obvious suffering and the sadistic nature of the occupation, after all its these emotions that that see the injustice of Capitalism and the Justice of Socialism.”
Marxism isn’t a moral crusade. As Engels says those kinds of arguments were fine 150-200 years ago, but today Marx has made them outlived and reactionary. Read the section of the manifesto on petit-bourgeois or moral socialism. As a Marxist I don’t oppose Capitalism because its an unjust system. It was even more unjust 200 years ago, yet Marx commended it for its progressiveness in revolutionising production and life. I oppose it for the reasons Marx did, because it has outlived its usefulness, and because a Socialist society will lift human society to a higher plane of historical development.
A few comments on your reply
I don’t think you fully understand materialism, ideas can be material. Colonialism has created a material object, a white view of the world where they see it has their mission to civilise the world as the rest of the world are savages. This idea, this condition, binds the workers to their oppressors and negates international working class movements and I believe it is as strong today as it ever was. Of course we should try all we can to create internationalism but I believe it is doomed to fail under current conditions.
Colonialism does still exist; the western powers exert a huge influence over the rest of the world. The IMF is a colonial body which binds countries to enslavement to western policies; the west can buy influence, divide and rule etc. The huge military might of the west can destroy any alternative that gets in its way. It has been used to arm trade union killers in Columbia to gangsters in Africa and Hamas hating “clerical fascist” reactionaries in Saudi Arabia. Your assertion that it doesn’t is up their with your belief that Israel does not occupy Gaza. Incidentally, can you give me the benefit of your analysis as to why these Reactionary regimes hate Hamas?
Sympathy seems like the moral crusade you criticised me for; the Palestinians deserve our active support, let’s boycott Israeli goods, it worked in South Africa with the full support of the ANC, and let’s stage demonstrations denouncing Israel.
More comments by Marx, this time on Ireland,
"Here, at home, as you are fully aware, the Fenians’ sway is paramount. Tussy is one of their head centres. Jenny writes on their behalf in the “Marseillaise” under the pseudonym of J. Williams. I have not only treated the same theme in the Brussels “Internationale,” and caused resolutions of the Central Council to be passed against their gaolers. In a circular, addressed by the Council to our corresponding committees, I have explained the merits of the Irish Question.
You understand at once that I am not only acted upon by feelings of humanity. There is something besides. To accelerate the social development in Europe, you must push on the catastrophe of official England. To do so, you must attack her in Ireland. That’s her weakest point. Ireland lost, the British “Empire” is gone, and the class war in England, till now somnolent and chronic, will assume acute forms. But England is the metropolis of landlordism and capitalism all over the world."
Four points to notes here, notice the moral crusade Marx creates when he says I am not only acted upon by feelings of humanity and his view that Landlordism and Capitalism still exist as classes to be defeated. Also notice the importance he places on destroying the British Empire and finally it establishes the principle that Marx could support reactionaries, what more reactionary a religion could you get in Marx’s time than Catholicism?
Marx’s quotes from the Gotha programme were aimed at those very socialist reactionaries you mention, he points out that Lassalle pretended, like you, that this class was no longer a ruling class to be fought. It also highlights the fact that you don’t even understand the class make up of our own country, let alone the intricacies of Middle East relations.
I need to make a further comment on your moral crusade nonsense, which if it wasn’t so absurd and downright dangerous it would be funny. Emotion litters the works of Marx; Marxists like you have turned it into some abstract science outside of humanity and into the realm of absolute logic –let’s call it rational fascism.
Can you just clarify what brought about Hitler’s rise to power, was it the conditions which France and Britain imposed through the Versailles Treaty on Germany, and the degradation that it inflicted on the German people or was it the rather unmaterialistic decree of clerical fascists?
You ask as a Marxist how struggle can lead to progressive outcomes and then ask to give real examples from History, is this some sort of joke. The English civil war, this struggle brought a whole host of new ideas into the world and the essence of Marxism is thesis anti thesis and synthesis. I will admit it may be wishful thinking but surely not impossible.
Re the BNP hypothetical scenario, I did not dodge the question, I answered it directly. If the reason for the strike was an oppressive boss as hinted at in your question I would support the workers, As for making the BNP more progressive, well I would want to know why the BNP were a reality, and what was the reason workers move to the right in times of hardship and not the left, could it have anything to do with Colonialism?
Ahmadinejad won his election on the support of many sections of the working class, contrasted with George Bush, his speeches seem far more progressive to me. Now that doesn’t make me a supporter of his as your false logic always assumes but the situation is not as simplistic as you paint it to be.
I am not calling for Israel to be destroyed, Israel is a reality like Hamas but I believe your solution will prolong the Palestinian agony. We have a completely different view of Israel, where you see gestures (withdrawal from Gaza) I see tactics. I believe Israel is expansionist and will next target the Arab Israelis, for me your solution is to fiddle while Rome burns. I will concede that only history will be the judge of that.
“I don’t think you fully understand materialism, ideas can be material. Colonialism has created a material object, a white view of the world where they see it has their mission to civilise the world as the rest of the world are savages. This idea, this condition, binds the workers to their oppressors and negates international working class movements and I believe it is as strong today as it ever was. Of course we should try all we can to create internationalism but I believe it is doomed to fail under current conditions.”
No, its you that doesn’t understand the dialectical interaction between ideas and material conditions. Ideas arise out of material conditions, and ideas through the actions of the men that hold them shape the material world. The ideology of racism, arising from, in part, Colonialism, is not a material condition but an idea or set of ideas created by material conditions. Those ideas can only be effectively defeated by changing the material conditions, which perpetuate the generation of the ideas. Colonialism has gone, but the deprivation faced by the working class, the conditions under which it exists, leads it to look for some explanation for its condition, some answer to it. In the absence of adequate responses from the Labour Movement to those conditions, it turns to easier more immediate answers provided by the racists. By the same token, you are correct to say that “under current conditions”, internationalism cannot be achieved simply on the basis of calling for it, just as racism cannot be defeated under current conditions simply by attacking white workers for being racist. The point is to CHANGE current conditions. That is the whole point of Marxist intervention in the class struggle, it is the importance of programme in that intervention.
”Colonialism does still exist; the western powers exert a huge influence over the rest of the world.”
I’m sorry, but this is nonsense. Colonialism is a system by which one state exerts its POLITICAL dominance in a foreign territory, through the establishment of a State under its own direct political rule. The anti-colonial struggle is a struggle for the ending of that political rule by the foreign state. The demand for self-determination, which is the basic demand of that struggle is a demand to have the right to determine your own POLITICAL regime. That struggle was won 50 years ago.
Yes western economies by the importance of their economies exert huge ECONOMIC influence over less developed economies, and use that to exert political pressure. But, that is not Colonialism. It is no different than a big company being able to exert economic pressure in the market compared to small companies. Its not Colonialism its Capitalism.
“The IMF is a colonial body which binds countries to enslavement to western policies; the west can buy influence, divide and rule etc.”
No it isn’t. It might be considered an imperialist body in so far as imperialism is understood as the system of global capitalism, manifested through a process of combined and uneven development. But it certainly isn’t a colonial body. If that were the case, then was Britain a colony of the IMF when it placed conditions on Britain lending money from it?
“The huge military might of the west can destroy any alternative that gets in its way. It has been used to arm trade union killers in Columbia to gangsters in Africa and Hamas hating “clerical fascist” reactionaries in Saudi Arabia.”
All true, but proof that Colonialism does not exist. If Colonialism still existed it would not need to do any of these things. The Colonial State running each colony would ensure that it got its way, the same state would deal with Trade Unions itself without needing third party killers and so on.
“Your assertion that it doesn’t is up their with your belief that Israel does not occupy Gaza.”
But I haven’t claimed that imperialism does any of the things you cite. I merely point out to you the simple fact that this is not Colonialism on a Marxist or any other definition of Colonialism. And, Israel does not occupy Gaza apart from its current incursion. It left, Hamas established its political regime in Gaza, or are you now going to tell us that HAMAS was acting under the instructions of the Israeli Colonial power???? Yes, Israel was blockading GAZA, but you do not need – indeed it would be counter-productive - to blockade a territory you are occupying!
“Incidentally, can you give me the benefit of your analysis as to why these Reactionary regimes hate Hamas?”
Which reactionary regimes are you talking about?
”Sympathy seems like the moral crusade you criticised me for; the Palestinians deserve our active support, let’s boycott Israeli goods, it worked in South Africa with the full support of the ANC, and let’s stage demonstrations denouncing Israel.”
The ANC supported the idea of boycotts, because it was a petit-bourgeois nationalist organisation not a working class, socialist organisation. It preferred the idea of a boycott and pressure on the regime from liberals internationally to a proletarian struggle, because, like its Stalinist fellow travellers, it feared unleashing the power of a proletarian revolution, which would have swept it along with apartheid into the dustbin of history. The boycott of South African goods did not end apartheid. What it did do was strike at South African blacks who lost jobs as a result of it, increasing their unemployment and poverty even more. A boycott of Israel is a similar petit-bourgeois liberal demand that will if it is successful similarly hurt the most vulnerable in Israel i.e. the Palestinian and Arab workers who depend on the Israeli economy for their livelihood. If for no other reason than that it is a thoroughly reactionary demand.
Yes, the Palestinians need our active support not sympathy, that is precisely my point. But, they need support in a way that can build the kind of movement that can resolve their solution, not the kind of support that simply assuages the conscience of western liberals, and enables them to vent their anger at Israel. They need support to build Palestinian workers organisations, they need support from western Trade Unions to help organise, to educate and train their members, they need assistance to establish workers co-operatives, and other forms of self-help groups such as Credit Unions, they need an international campaign to demand democratic rights for all Palestinians, and to help forge links with Jewish Labour Movement organisations, they need western Labour movement organisations to provide humanitarian aid. They need western activists to stop giving political support to the workers enemies in HAMAS, that attack workers organisations, socialists, women and LGBT Palestinians. They need western Labour Movements to put pressure on, and to mobilise with Israeili Trade Unions and other Labour Movement organisations to black military supplies used by the Israeli State to attack Palestinians, and to build a labour movement in both Israel and Palestine that can provide a real alternative to the reactionaries on both sides.
”More comments by Marx, this time on Ireland,”
"Here, at home, as you are fully aware, the Fenians’ sway is paramount. Tussy is one of their head centres. Jenny writes on their behalf in the “Marseillaise” under the pseudonym of J. Williams. I have not only treated the same theme in the Brussels “Internationale,” and caused resolutions of the Central Council to be passed against their gaolers. In a circular, addressed by the Council to our corresponding committees, I have explained the merits of the Irish Question.
You understand at once that I am not only acted upon by feelings of humanity. There is something besides. To accelerate the social development in Europe, you must push on the catastrophe of official England. To do so, you must attack her in Ireland. That’s her weakest point. Ireland lost, the British “Empire” is gone, and the class war in England, till now somnolent and chronic, will assume acute forms. But England is the metropolis of landlordism and capitalism all over the world."
”Four points to notes here, notice the moral crusade Marx creates when he says I am not only acted upon by feelings of humanity and his view that Landlordism and Capitalism still exist as classes to be defeated. Also notice the importance he places on destroying the British Empire and finally it establishes the principle that Marx could support reactionaries, what more reactionary a religion could you get in Marx’s time than Catholicism?”
But Marx in what he says, is specifically NOT involved in a moral crusade here. Of course, Marxists like anyone else- probably more than most in fact – hold moral views, but the point is that Marxists do not determine their actions on the basis of those moral views, but on the basis of their scientific, objective assessments. Sismondi was absolutely right, as were his later followers such as the Narodniks in Russia in condemning, on moral grounds, the evils which Capitalism created. But, Marx in turn condemned Sismondi, just as Lenin condemned the Narodniks, for deriving their political perspective on the basis of that moral condemnation, as opposed to a scientific analysis of Capitalism, an analysis which led Marx to eulogise on the progressive nature of capitalism for its revoluitonising role, its saving of millions from the idiocy of rural life, and undermining of those feudal and mediaeval ideas that groups such as HAMAS represent today. It is what led Lenin to declare as against the Narodniks that the poverty in Russia, the problems it suffered were not the result of Capitalism, but of not enough Capitalism.
Of course, Marx was in favour of defeating the Empire where have I said otherwise??? Where in anything above does Marx give one inkling of support to Catholicism???? He gives his support to the idea that Britain should not hold Ireland in chains, and thereby supports the struggle against British domination, DESPITE the reactionary nature of those in the van of that struggle. But, Marx was a centralist, and as Lenin pointed out in trying to educate others in his time who held the same kind of reactionary ideas that you hold, Marx was in favour of a free Ireland that was part of a single state, in which the unity of the Irish and British workers could be maintained in order the better to struggle against their common enemy.
”Marx’s quotes from the Gotha programme were aimed at those very socialist reactionaries you mention, he points out that Lassalle pretended, like you, that this class was no longer a ruling class to be fought. It also highlights the fact that you don’t even understand the class make up of our own country, let alone the intricacies of Middle East relations.”
But, I said the exact opposite. The whole point was that I said that you don’t SUPPORT a reactionary class such as the feudal aristocracy JUST BECAUSE it is the enemy of your main enemy, the Capitalist Class. On the contrary, for the very reason that this class represents the past not the future is the very reason I was arguing that it is even more reactionary than the Capitalist class, and so if anything you would ally with the Capitalist class against a return to its rule.
It is you, that wants to bloc with the political representatives of that medievalism in the form of HAMAS, not me. I very well understand the class make up of Britain. Clearly better than do you. The reality is that the Landlord class lost its position as ruling class to the Capitalist class. Its material base and mode of production was replaced by Capitalism, and with it its political power. It was thereby forced to become first a junior partner to the Capitalists, and to turn itself into a Capitalist class. Land as a means of production does not exist as feudal property, but as Capitalist property. Rent is no longer feudal rent or governed by the economic laws specific to feudalism, but is Capitalist Rent, determined by the Capitalist laws of rent set out by Marx in Capital.
”I need to make a further comment on your moral crusade nonsense, which if it wasn’t so absurd and downright dangerous it would be funny. Emotion litters the works of Marx; Marxists like you have turned it into some abstract science outside of humanity and into the realm of absolute logic –let’s call it rational fascism.”
I’d suggest you read the section of the Maniesto dealing with your “Moral Socialism”
“This school of Socialism dissected with great acuteness the contradictions in the conditions of modern production. It laid bare the hypocritical apologies of economists. It proved, incontrovertibly, the disastrous effects of machinery and division of labour; the concentration of capital and land in a few hands; overproduction and crises; it pointed out the inevitable ruin of the petty bourgeois and peasant, the misery of the proletariat, the anarchy in production, the crying inequalities in the distribution of wealth, the industrial war of extermination between nations, the dissolution of old moral bonds, of the old family relations, of the old nationalities.
In its positive aims, however, this form of Socialism aspires either to restoring the old means of production and of exchange, and with them the old property relations, and the old society, or to cramping the modern means of production and of exchange within the framework of the old property relations that have been, and were bound to be, exploded by those means. In either case, it is both reactionary and Utopian.
Its last words are: corporate guilds for manufacture; patriarchal relations in agriculture.
Ultimately, when stubborn historical facts had dispersed all intoxicating effects of self-deception, this form of Socialism ended in a miserable hangover.”
“Can you just clarify what brought about Hitler’s rise to power, was it the conditions which France and Britain imposed through the Versailles Treaty on Germany, and the degradation that it inflicted on the German people or was it the rather unmaterialistic decree of clerical fascists?”
It is not at all clear what you are asking here. What does “unmaterialistic decree of clerical-fascists” mean? What does this have to do with Hitler’s rise to power? It is undoubtedly the case that the degree of deprivation and national humiliation imposed on the German masses as a result of Germany’s defeat in WWI was a material factor in creating the basis for the spread of nationalist ideas, and of ideas that superficially offered a critique of Capital, even though, in reality the Nazis were ultimately financed by Big Capital, and acted in its interests. Those same material conditions had provoked the revolutions of 1918 and 1923, and the huge support for the Social Democrats and Communists. The failure of these parties to offer the workers a solution to their problems, and to change those material conditions was what led ultimately to the victory of the Nazis. The same thing can explain the rise of reactionary parties and organisations in similar conditions elsewhere, including of HAMAS.
”You ask as a Marxist how struggle can lead to progressive outcomes and then ask to give real examples from History, is this some sort of joke.”
No I didn’t ask that as you well know. I asked how HAMAS was to lead a struggle on the basis of a reactionary programme, and somehow for IT to become a progressive force. You have dodged that question. There are lots of examples of progressive struggles being led by reactionary forces, which do not result in the reactionary force somehow becoming progressive. The Vietnamese people undertook a progressive struggle against French Colonialism, and against US imperialism. At their head was a reactionary force the Vietnamese Stalinists. The victory of that struggle did not transform the Stalinists into a progressive force. On the contrary, they imposed the same kind of bureaucratic tyranny over the people that Stalinists have done elsewhere.
“The English civil war, this struggle brought a whole host of new ideas into the world and the essence of Marxism is thesis anti thesis and synthesis. I will admit it may be wishful thinking but surely not impossible.”
The English Civil War was not led by reactionaries, but by a group which was revolutionary for the time. Even so, that struggle if anything had the opposite lesson to that you want to tell. It led to Cromwell killing the most progressive elements of that struggle, the levellers, the Diggers, the 5th Monarchists and so on.
”Re the BNP hypothetical scenario, I did not dodge the question, I answered it directly. If the reason for the strike was an oppressive boss as hinted at in your question I would support the workers, As for making the BNP more progressive, well I would want to know why the BNP were a reality, and what was the reason workers move to the right in times of hardship and not the left, could it have anything to do with Colonialism?”
You have dodged the question again. You say that HAMAS are progressive because they are leading a struggle that is progressive. I am saying if there is a strike organised by the BNP union would this strike mean that the BNP was progressive by virtue of the fact that the strike was progressive. The BNP ARE a reality there is nothing hypothetical here. Please just answer what is a simple question.
”Ahmadinejad won his election on the support of many sections of the working class, contrasted with George Bush, his speeches seem far more progressive to me. Now that doesn’t make me a supporter of his as your false logic always assumes but the situation is not as simplistic as you paint it to be.”
Hitler won the election on the basis of support from many workers too. He also used demagogic rhetoric that could be taken as “progressive” if you understand the term as you seem to do. But, a Marxist determines whether such people are progressive by the whole of their programme, and by their actions not by some snatch of a phrase here and there. Hitler and Ahmedinijad have in common a hatred of Jews, a hatred of socialists, and a determination to prevent independent workers struggle against them. Both serve the interests of the Capitalist class, but at least Hitler was not an opponent of modernity which Ahmedinijad is.
”I am not calling for Israel to be destroyed,”
Yes, you are. You want a single state on the whole territory of Israel and Palestine. I too seek that as being the best, rational solution, on the basis of federalism, and wide ranging autonomous, regional self-government. The difference is that you want that solution to be imposed on the Jews against their will. The only force capable of doing that is the neighbouring Arab bourgeois states – and in fact they can’t achieve it either as the past wars have shown. The Jews in Israel will not agree to a single state so long as they believe – understandably – that such a state means a takeover by the Palestinians of that State, the dispossession of Jewish property by that State in order to hand it over to Palestinians who were dispossessed in the past, and so on. In other words a State in which they will be oppressed. So long as they oppose such a solution for those reasons the only way you can force them to accept such a solution is by a war, which would be a genocidal war, and which almost certainly Israel would win – and if it wasn’t the US would intervene to ensure that it did. If anything is a recipe for Palestinian and Arab suffering it is the solution you offer.
Alternatively, the fact that Palestinians DO de facto already live under the auspices of the Israeli State, but without political rights, DOES open up the legitimate question of Palestinians being granted those rights, just as a similar lack of rights led to the Civil Rights Movement in Northern Ireland. It does open the possibility such a struggle for changing the material conditions, and thereby of forging unity between Palestinian and Jewish workers, and thereby of removing the very grounds on which the majority of Jews fear the prospect of a single state. To the extent that such a development led to more amicable relations between Jews and Palestinians, to the extent that the extension of autonomous regional government enabled the development of internal Palestinian forces capable of establishing and maintaining a viable state, it does lead to the conditions under which a two-state solution would be possible should the Palestinians still want one.
“Israel is a reality like Hamas but I believe your solution will prolong the Palestinian agony. We have a completely different view of Israel, where you see gestures (withdrawal from Gaza) I see tactics.”
You’ll have to explain what tactics you are speaking of here. I see no tactic, I only see people engaged in fruitless activity. I see fruitless tactics such as lobbing rockets at Israeli civilians as prolonging Palestinian agony. To the extent that this leads to even more deprivation and suffering for the Palestinian people it simply fuels reactionary forces such as HAMAS. That extends the suffering of the Palestinian people even further as they suffer a double oppression from the Israeli State and from a totalitarian HAMAS proto state. Indeed, for many that suffering is even worse as witness the hundreds of LGBT Palestinians that have fled HAMAS tyranny in Gaza, for the more liberal environment of Israel.
“I believe Israel is expansionist and will next target the Arab Israelis, for me your solution is to fiddle while Rome burns. I will concede that only history will be the judge of that.”
I agree that the Israeli State is expansionist. The answer to that lies in opposition to it by the Jewish masses in conjunction with the Arab masses, it does not come through supporting reactionary Arab nationalism. If my solution is fiddling whilst Rome burns your solution is to light the fire, and pour petrol on it to keep it flaring up. The tactics you propose have not worked for 40 if not 60 years. They have merely led to an increasing division in the working class, and the needless shedding of blood of workers on both sides. Marxists are supposed to learn from experience and history, the lesson is clear.
"History is the muck of all ages"
I will deal with Colonialism first. OK I will call it Imperialism, it still means that the west can fund puppet regimes to act on its behalf, it can still fund/train and arm reactionary regimes in Columbia and elsewhere to carry out anti worker acts, it still has the power to mould the world to its interests and that condition still binds workers to the class that oppresses it, the fight against this condition is therefore still the most critical struggle in the world today as far as my theory goes. The struggle against this can lead to workers across nations finding a common cause and may finally open the eyes of workers in the west. It will also diminish the power of the puppet regimes propped up by the west.
The IMF is an imperialist institution designed and created by Imperialists, it does not exert the same influence on Britain as it does other countries due to uneven economic development, not a coincidence I suspect.
Marx position on Ireland was to support the Fenians who happen to be Catholic, the whole point is that this did not put him off supporting them as the Islamic faith of Hamas does not put me off supporting them. This didn't mean that Marx was a lover of Catholicism and all it's reactionary doctrine and saw the Fenian programme as a blueprint for socialism. You see history as too linear, a straight line shooting towards progress and it clouds your analysis. The underlying trend is certainly that way but sometimes 1 step back means 2 steps forward.
I agree with most of what you say about materialism but an idea created out of material conditions becomes material and has a real affect. Yes the way to beat it is to create new material conditions but that is the whole point of my argument. Weaken Imperialism, which creates certain material conditions and you weaken the ideas/realities etc that spring from it, of which Hamas/Israel are an example.
Marx clearly states in the letters on Ireland that Human emotion affected his belief, he can't be more clear but his analysis of the situation is not clouded in emotion. To imagine a human being like Marx or anyone else for that matter not to be motivated by emotions is very strange.
I think your extrapolation of Engels critique about "moral Socialism" to decree that human emotion is moribund, like some sort of divine proclamation, is foolish in the extreme.
Ofcourse the landed aristocracy is a junior partner and has changed to some extent since the 19th Century but it still exists as a seperate class as Marx clearly states. He is at pains not to lump them together as one class, the evidence is uncontestable.
And my original point was that your comparison of the historic Fuedal Aristocracy to Hamas relationship to western capitalism if fundamentally flawed.
On Hitler, I mis-quoted you but the point still stands. Do you believe Hitler was allowed into Austria was by the decree of Fascist clerics? -It seems to go against your beliefs on materialism
Would you have been happier if the US had won the vietnamese war? What do you think the result of that would have been?
Ok I will answer the BNP question directly, just liked to keep you in suspense!
If the BNP were to conduct a number of struggles against oppressive bosses would I support those struggles, yes. Would it make the BNP more preogressive, well maybe.
But! Can you not see that your BNP analogy is so utterly flawed as to make it meaningless. If the BNP became more progressive would I support their broader aims, no way. Does this make me a hypocrite because I support an active struggle by Hamas firing rockets into the towns they were ethnically cleansed from and against a people who brutalise them, I don't think so.
I don't accept your argument that the Palestinians are the authors of their own demise. I think this shows how you do not understand the relationship at the heart of this conflict.
Its the tactics of appeasement to Israel that has led to where we are now and not the tactics of the people who live under the jack boot of the Israelis. It really does not matter what tactics the Palestinans use, they will all fail unless the world puts pressure on Israel, for Israel are the power here.
If a grown man was beating up a dog for barking because it was out in the rain and had no food, it would be crazy to blame the dog. Tell the man to give it some food and buy a kennel.
This disparity in power, the utter hoplessness of the situation may lead the Palestinians into some desperate action and I will not criticise them for that, I fully understand that their actions are born out of the material conditions under which they live. To criticize them for it is not being materialistic.
Only by weakening Israel can progress be made.
“I will deal with Colonialism first. OK I will call it Imperialism, it still means that the west can fund puppet regimes to act on its behalf, it can still fund/train and arm reactionary regimes in Columbia and elsewhere to carry out anti worker acts, it still has the power to mould the world to its interests and that condition still binds workers to the class that oppresses it, the fight against this condition is therefore still the most critical struggle in the world today as far as my theory goes.”
Yes, the West CAN fund puppet regimes. The difference now with Colonialism, is that the peoples of these countries can reject those Governments, just as they rejected and threw out the Colonial Government. The fact, that imperialism CAN do this, and in some cases has done so, does not change the fact that these countries are politically independent. The fact, that imperialism CAN do this does not mean that it CAN do it with impunity, successfully, or that it DOES do this in any meaningful way. The political regimes in more than 90% of the world exist not because they are puppets of imperialism, but because they are the puppets of the ruling class in those countries. IN seeing the main enemy as “colonialism” or “imperialism” in these countries you divert attention of the working class in these countries from their main enemy – the one at home as Liebknecht put it, their own ruling class. The main enemy of the working class in Iran is not imperialism, but the Iranian ruling class, whose government jails and murders them. That is the case in virtually every country in the world.
“The struggle against this can lead to workers across nations finding a common cause and may finally open the eyes of workers in the west. It will also diminish the power of the puppet regimes propped up by the west.”
Which puppet regimes are you speaking of? The number of such puppet regimes is tiny, and hardly significant to working class struggle on a global scale. In diverting workers eyes towards this “imperialism” you are diverting workers from the real struggle – the struggle against their own Capitalist class.
”The IMF is an imperialist institution designed and created by Imperialists, it does not exert the same influence on Britain as it does other countries due to uneven economic development, not a coincidence I suspect.”
No more a coincidence than that a Bank exerts greater influence over a small firm that lends from it than it does over a large company. All you are describing is the normal working of the Capitalist market. A struggle against “imperialism” cannot change that, only a struggle against Capitalism.
”Marx position on Ireland was to support the Fenians who happen to be Catholic, the whole point is that this did not put him off supporting them as the Islamic faith of Hamas does not put me off supporting them. This didn't mean that Marx was a lover of Catholicism and all it's reactionary doctrine and saw the Fenian programme as a blueprint for socialism. You see history as too linear, a straight line shooting towards progress and it clouds your analysis. The underlying trend is certainly that way but sometimes 1 step back means 2 steps forward.”
There is a danger here of ending up discussing 19th century Ireland rather than 21st Century Israel/Palestine, but as you have made it central to your argument I will have to deal with it at length.
Your argument is so confused its difficult to know where to begin, but I’ll try to deal with the main points.
1) Marx’s position was to favour a free Ireland, which meant under the conditions to support a struggle for Irish Independence. The Fenians were not an exclusively Catholic organisation. The term Fenian restricted to Catholics was a pejorative term for Irish Catholics introduced by the British. In fact, the Fenians stood in a long line of Irish Nationalist organisations going back to Wolf Tone, who was a Protestant as were most of the original Irish Nationalists. The correct definition of a Fenian at the time Marx was writing here was that given by John O’Mahony who wrote that it meant someone who held “two principles: firstly, that Ireland had a natural right to independence, and secondly, that that right could be won only by an armed revolution.” See here .
2) The fact that many Fenians WERE Catholics is irrelevant. Their Programme was not a CATHOLIC program, but a petit-bourgeois nationalist programme. In that respect it was relatively progressive. But, Marx at that time was writing BEFORE the existence of mass workers parties, and before those parties had the experience of these bourgeois and bourgeois nationalist organisations in such struggles. If you want to know what later Marxists thought of the Fenians listen to the words of James Connolly.
” The lower middle class gave to the National cause in the past many unselfish patriots, but, on the whole, while willing and ready enough to please their humble fellow country-men, and to compound with their own conscience by shouting louder than all others their untiring devotion to the cause of freedom, they, as a class, unceasingly strove to divert the public mind upon the lines of constitutional agitation for such reforms as might remove irritating and unnecessary officialism, while leaving untouched the basis of national and economic subjection. This policy enabled them to masquerade as patriots before the unthinking multitude, and at the same time lent greater force to their words when as ‘patriot leaders’ they cried down any serious revolutionary movement that might demand from them greater proofs of sincerity than could be furnished by the strength of their lungs, or greater sacrifices than would be suitable to their exchequer. ’48 and ’67, the Young Ireland and the Fenian Movements, furnish the classic illustrations of this policy on the part of the Irish middle class.”
See: Labour in Irish History .
3) The point is that the Fenians program was not dictated by their Catholicism, whereas HAMAS program is dictated by the fact that they are a clerical-fascist organisation. Organisations are not clerical-fascist by dint of the fact that they are made up of people wholly or largely of this or that religion, but by the fact of their program!
4) The Fenians were not seeking to establish Irish Independence on the basis of a fight against Protestants, whereas Hamas fight is based upon a fight against Jews.
5) I do not refuse to give political support to HAMAS because they are Muslims. I refuse to give them political support because they are an anti-working class, reactionary force. Most Palestinians are Muslims, yet I politically support the Palestinian people in their struggle against Israeli oppression. Were I a member of a working class organisation in Palestine or if there existed an international workers force such as the International Brigade, I would in principle be in favour of proposing to HAMAS a MILITARY alliance to defend Palestinian communities. I say, in principle, because a Marxist always has to retain the flexibility of tactics in each specific case. Our concern is not with the bourgeois democratic demand for self-determination, but with furthering the interests of the working class as a whole. Given the overwhelming force of Israel as against the Palestinians, I think that the kind of actions undertaken by HAMAS, are counter-productive and adventurist. So if the likelihood of such military conflicts with Israel meant that tens of thousands of workers would die with nothing to show from it, I would advise avoiding such conflicts. IN addition, although Communists have been able to advocate such military alliances in other such struggles in the past alongside bourgeois and petit-bourgeois nationalist forces, those forces have not normally been as hostile to workers and socialists as are clerical-fascist groups like HAMAS. Or let me qualify that, they are equally hostile, but wait for the opportunity to strike at the workers when they feel they have sufficiently used them against their enemies. For that reason the Communists as advised in the Theses on the National Question and on the Colonial Question of the Comintern should always treat such organisations as their enemies, and maintain a strict organisational and political separation from them. There is in practice little possibility that groups such as HAMAS would agree to a military alliance with a revolutionary working class force, precisely because they hate us more than they hate the Jews or the “imperialists”.
6) We have the experience of the Chinese revolution and the murdering of socialists by Chiang Kai Shek, the experience of Spain in the Spanish Civil War, and many other such struggles to know how we should treat these organisations, and that is an advantage we have over Marx.
7) I do not see history as linear at all, and nothing I have said suggests that I do.
“I agree with most of what you say about materialism but an idea created out of material conditions becomes material and has a real affect.”
No it doesn’t it remains an idea. The idea can then prompt human action, which creates a material effect. Unfortunately, because Man creates history under conditions not of his own making, the effect may not be that which was intended.
“Yes the way to beat it is to create new material conditions but that is the whole point of my argument. Weaken Imperialism, which creates certain material conditions and you weaken the ideas/realities etc that spring from it, of which Hamas/Israel are an example.”
But, what does “weaken imperialism” mean? Do you want imperialism to be weakened by stopping doing those things which enable it to exert economic influence. What would that mean? It would mean that imperialism did not invest in less developed economies, or lend money to those economies they need to invest in their industry. Would that be a progressive development? Hell no. It would be precisely the kind of programme Marx described in the manifesto of those petit-bouregois socialists who wanted to contain Capitalism within the bounds of the old forms.
“In its positive aims, however, this form of Socialism aspires either to restoring the old means of production and of exchange, and with them the old property relations, and the old society, or to cramping the modern means of production and of exchange within the framework of the old property relations that have been, and were bound to be, exploded by those means. In either case, it is both reactionary and Utopian.”
It would be to condemn the workers in those countries to prolonged poverty as Capitalist development was slowed if not stopped, it would mean that the revolutionary function of Capitalism in creating the working class as its own grave-digger would be slowed down. It is a thoroughly reactionary, petit-bourgeois demand, the politics of moral socialism. The way to change the material conditions is to encourage the development of the working class, and to the extent that Capitalism does that, to the extent that imperialism via globalisation does that it atcs in an objectively progressive manner. The last thing Marxists should do is stand in its way. Rather they should seek to further the interests of workers within that process, to take advantage of the increased number of workers employed in industry, to encourage their organisation into Trade Unions and other organisations etc.
Look at Marx’s attitude to Britain in India which stands in stark contrast to your petit-bourgeois moralism. Marx condemned in the strongest terms Britain’s actions in India. But, having done so he concludes that historically Britain had fulfilled a most progressive task. It had smashed the old village communes on which rested the Caste system, and which represented a historical dead-end. In doing so, and introducing Capitalism it created a working class, the class which would in its turn overthrow that Capitalism and take society forward.
”Marx clearly states in the letters on Ireland that Human emotion affected his belief, he can't be more clear but his analysis of the situation is not clouded in emotion. To imagine a human being like Marx or anyone else for that matter not to be motivated by emotions is very strange.”
I never said that Marx wasn’t affected by emotion. Look back and you will see that I said that, of course, all Marxists hold moral values as much if not more than anyone else. What I said was that Marx did not determine his program and his actions on the basis of such moral values. He makes that clear in the first sentence.
“You understand at once that I am not only acted upon by feelings of humanity.”
The “You understand at once” means for anyone who knows Marx that what he is saying here is, of course I am not motivated in my program by my sympathy for the plight of the Irish. And the rest of the quote makes it clear that in fact his main concern lies in Britain with the effect that such a successful struggle that defeated British Imperialism would have on the class struggle in Britain. Read the quote and you will see that this is Marx’s main concern.
”I think your extrapolation of Engels critique about "moral Socialism" to decree that human emotion is moribund, like some sort of divine proclamation, is foolish in the extreme.”
Again I didn’t say that. I said that the Marxist program is not based on the grounds of moralism, but on the basis of a scientific analysis of society, and from that the development of a program that advances the cause of the working class.
”Of course the landed aristocracy is a junior partner and has changed to some extent since the 19th Century but it still exists as a seperate class as Marx clearly states. He is at pains not to lump them together as one class, the evidence is uncontestable.
And my original point was that your comparison of the historic Fuedal Aristocracy to Hamas relationship to western capitalism if fundamentally flawed.”
He was right at that time not to lump them together as one class, particularly as he was writing in relation to Germany not Britain, where in fact the Landed aristocracy remained an important force. But, now is not then. Landlords now exist as indistinguishable from the Capitalist class, and are an integral part of it. Yes, they have specific interests, but essentially no different from the way Commercial Capitalists, or Money Capitalists have specific interests. But, this is largely irrelevant. Marx argued that the fact that these landlords opposed the Capitalists was no reason for socialists to side with them, because “my enemy’s enemy” is not necessarily my friend. The Landlords did not become progressive because they opposed Capital. On the contrary they remained even more reactionary than Capital. Just because HAMAS is fighting Israeli opposition does not make it the friend of workers. On the contrary to the extent that it represents a throwback to those mediavalist ideas of clericalism it is even more an enemy of the workers than is the bourgeois Israeli State.
”On Hitler, I mis-quoted you but the point still stands. Do you believe Hitler was allowed into Austria was by the decree of Fascist clerics? -It seems to go against your beliefs on materialism”
The Anschluss, and the reactionary Austrian governments of the time were very real material factors. Nobody imagined them, they weren’t just ideas in someone’s head; they existed.
”Would you have been happier if the US had won the vietnamese war? What do you think the result of that would have been?”
No, of course I wouldn’t have been happier if the US had won the Vietnamese War. But, the alternatives are not just a victory for US imperialism, or of Vietnamese Stalinism are they? The other alternative would have been for a real workers party to have mobilised against US imperialism, and Vietnamese Capitalism, and to have carried that revolution through not just to win Vietnamese independence, but also to have established a democratic workers state. The main force that might have been able to achieve that, the Vietnamese Trotskyists, were of course massacred by the Stalinists, who saw the danger of workers revolution as a greater threat even than US imperialism. Perhaps, your question would, therefore, be better put to those Vietnamese Stalinists and nationalists who carried out that massacre against their own people.
”Ok I will answer the BNP question directly, just liked to keep you in suspense!
If the BNP were to conduct a number of struggles against oppressive bosses would I support those struggles, yes. Would it make the BNP more progressive, well maybe."
I thought you were going to answer this question DIRECTLY. I don’t think "maybe" is very direct. What does maybe mean. Explain what maybe means.
”But! Can you not see that your BNP analogy is so utterly flawed as to make it meaningless. If the BNP became more progressive would I support their broader aims, no way. Does this make me a hypocrite because I support an active struggle by Hamas firing rockets into the towns they were ethnically cleansed from and against a people who brutalise them, I don't think so.”
You may not think so, but clearly it does. Your position is untenable. The aims of HAMAS are reactionary, and those aims determine the method by which they seek to achieve them. War after all is merely a continuation of politics by other means. The politics, the political program determines the means used. The aims are reactionary,a and the methods are reactionary.
”I don't accept your argument that the Palestinians are the authors of their own demise. I think this shows how you do not understand the relationship at the heart of this conflict.”
Where have I said that the Palestinians are the authors of their own demise? The demise of the Palestinians is the result of history. As a people they lacked the forces given historical reality to establish their own state in the way that other states were established throughout the Middle East once Colonialism ended. Where other states were actually created by that Colonialism as its parting shot e.g. Iraq, the decision to create a Jewish homeland in Palestine mitigated against the establishment of a Palestinian State, and left the Palestinians under the British mandate. The Jews were able to gather sufficient forces to fight an anti-colonial struggle to kick the British out and to establish their own state. The struggle against that state by the neighbouring Arab states created the conditions of conflict that have existed since.
The problems of the Palestinians are not at all of their own making. Their problems stem from the fact of being too weak as a people to generate the necessary resources to create and sustain a viable state – not a weakness of them as a people just a historical reality in the same way that say the Cornish lacked those resources as a people, and in the way that many nationalities in France lacked those resources – and of historical development within the Middle East as a region. In other words the same kinds of reason that Marx and Engels gave for believing that various Central and Eastern European nationalities were not capable of creating nation states. Reality can change, and that assessment can change, but for now we have to deal with the reality we have, and we have to offer the Palestinians the best opportunity for overcoming their problems within that reality.
”Its the tactics of appeasement to Israel that has led to where we are now and not the tactics of the people who live under the jack boot of the Israelis. It really does not matter what tactics the Palestinans use, they will all fail unless the world puts pressure on Israel, for Israel are the power here.”
I am all in favour of the Labour Movement internationally putting pressure on Israel to get out of Gaza and the West Bank, and to demand basic democratic rights for the Palestinians. But, I think the likelihood of that succeeding is very limited. Only if that pressure by the international Labour Movement can also succeed in mobilising the working class in Israel itself to such demands does that have any chance of success. Moreover, as the last 60 years has shown, although such international pressure might cause Israel to withdraw troops it has deployed within these territories that provides no solution to the actual problem. Only full democratic rights for the Palestinians can begin to achieve that – indeed only Socialism can achieve a real solution for both Jews and Palestinians. So long as elements within the Palestinians such as HAMAS, and within neighbouring states, and within states such as Iran, which utilise the Palestinian struggle to further their own expansionist aims in the region, continue to launch attacks on Israeli civilians and with a program based on the destruction of Israel then Israel will continue to have a pretext upon which to resume such actions, and Jewish workers will be turned away from forging the necessary link with Palestinian workers that is the solution to both their problems.
”If a grown man was beating up a dog for barking because it was out in the rain and had no food, it would be crazy to blame the dog. Tell the man to give it some food and buy a kennel.”
I agree, but who is blaming the Palestinians here? Certainly not me. And I do propose giving the Palestinians food and support, and a place to live. But, the way to do that is via a program based on proletarian internationalism, not bourgeois nationalism. Your solution gives the dog a tin of food that is still in the tin, and rather than showing the dog a kennel of its own points it in the direction of another poor dog with the suggestion kick out the other dog.
”This disparity in power, the utter hoplessness of the situation may lead the Palestinians into some desperate action and I will not criticise them for that, I fully understand that their actions are born out of the material conditions under which they live. To criticize them for it is not being materialistic.”
On the contrary. Marxists have a duty to EXPLAIN why such desperate actions are taken and thereby to support those that take them as against those who fore them to be made. But, a primary task of Marxists is to offer criticism of strategies and tactics where they are contrary to the interests of those we seek to support. Our job is to be leaders and educators not cheer leaders. Only by doing so can lessons be leanred and material conditions changed. That is a fundamental reuirement of historical materialsm, and of dialectics.
”Only by weakening Israel can progress be made.”
If it is weakened by the working class marching towards a more progressive future yes. If it is weakened by reactionary Arab nationalism, or by clerical-fascism no that would be a terrible danger for all workers in the Middle East, and by strengthening Pan-Islamism a danger to workers in a much wider sphere. As the Communist International put it in the Theses on the National and Colonial Questions:
“11) With regard to the more backward states and nations, in which feudal or patriarchal and patriarchal-peasant relations predominate, it is particularly important to bear in mind:
first, that all Communist parties must assist the bourgeois-democratic liberation movement in these countries, and that the duty of rendering the most active assistance rests primarily with the workers of the country the backward nation is colonially or financially dependent on;
second, the need for a struggle against the clergy and other influential reactionary and medieval elements in backward countries;
third, the need to combat Pan-Islamism and similar trends, which strive to combine the liberation movement against European and American imperialism with an attempt to strengthen the positions of the khans, landowners, mullahs, etc”
See: Lenin’s Address
“Keep your friends close but your enemies closer”
Boffy,
Firstly, some observations from you last reply.
On Colonialism/Imperialism,
Here are some of Lenin’s thoughts (In speech marks) on the subject with comments from me.
“And what better consolation could there be than the theory that imperialism is not so bad”
“Such simple-mindedness on the part of the bourgeoisie economists is not surprising; moreover, it is their interest to pretend to be so naĂŻve and to talk “seriously” about peace under Imperialism…..Instead of an analysis of imperialism and an exposure of the depths of its contradictions, we have nothing but a reformist “pious wish” to wave them aside, to evade them.”
“Finance capital is such a great, such a decisive, you might say, force in all economic and in all international relations, that it is capable of subjecting, and actually does subject, to itself even states enjoying the fullest political independence”
“Not only are the two main groups of countries, those owning colonies, and the colonies themselves, but also the diverse forms of dependent countries which, politically, are formally independent, but in fact, are enmeshed in the net of financial and diplomatic dependence, typical of this epoch. We have already referred to one form of dependence –the semi colony. An example of another is provided by Argentina….writes Schulze-Faevernitz in his work on British imperialism, “is so dependent financially on London that it ought to be described as almost a British commercial colony.”
“Advancing this definition of imperialism brings us into complete contradiction to K. Kautsky, who refuses to regard imperialism as a “phase of capitalism” and defines it as a policy “preferred” by finance capital…Kautsky’s definition is thoroughly false from the theoretical standpoint. What distinguishes imperialism is the rule not of industrial capital but financial capital, the striving to annex not agrarian countries, particularly, but every kind of country. Kautsky divorces imperialist politics from imperialist economics; he divorces monopoly in politics from monopoly in economics in order to pave the way for his vulgar bourgeoisie reformism, such as “disarmament””
“Therefore, in the realities of the capitalist system, and not in the banal philistine fantasies of English parsons, or of the German “Marxist”, Kautsky, “inter-imperialist” or “ultra-imperialist” alliances, no matter what form they may assume, whether of one imperialist coalition against another, or of a general alliance embracing all the imperialist powers, are inevitably nothing more than a “truce” in periods between wars. Peaceful alliances prepare the ground for wars, and in their turn grow out of wars; the one conditions the other, producing alternating forms of peaceful and non-peaceful struggle on one and the same basis of imperialist connections and relations within world economics and world politics. But in order to pacify the workers and reconcile them with the social-chauvinists who have deserted to the side of the bourgeoisie, over-wise Kautsky separates one link of a single chain from another, separates the present peaceful (and ultra-imperialist, nay, ultra-ultra-imperialist) alliance of all the powers for the “pacification” of China (remember the suppression of the Boxer rebellion) from the non-peaceful conflict of tomorrow, which will prepare the ground for another “peaceful” general alliance for the partition, say, of Turkey, on the day after tomorrow, etc., etc. Instead of showing the living connection between periods of imperialist peace and periods of imperialist war, Kautsky presents the workers with a lifeless abstraction in order to reconcile them to their lifeless leaders”
“Neither Marx nor Engels lived to see lived to see the imperialist epoch of world capitalism…But it has been a peculiar feature of England that even in the middle of the nineteenth century she already revealed at least two major distinguishing features of imperialism (1) Vast colonies, and (2) monopoly profit.”
“Capitalism itself gradually provides the subjugated with the means and resources for their emancipation and they set out to achieve the goal which once seemed highest to the European nations: the creation of a united national state as a means to economic and cultural freedom. This movement for national independence threatens European capital in its most valuable and most promising fields of exploitation, and European capital can maintain its domination only by continually increasing its military forces”
“Imperialist ideology also penetrates the working class. No Chinese wall separates it from the other classes. The leaders of the present-day, so-called, “Social-Democratic” Party of Germany are justly called “social-imperialists”, that is, socialists in words and imperialists in deeds; but as early as 1902, Hobson noted the existence in Britain of “Fabian imperialists” who belonged to the opportunist Fabian Society.”
“We see no trace of understanding of the fact that imperialism is inseparably bound up with capitalism in its present form and that, therefore [!!], an open struggle against imperialism would be hopeless, unless, perhaps, the fight were to be confined to protests against certain of its especially abhorrent excesses.”
– Would abhorrent excesses not sum up Israel’s actions and would this not need some emotional evaluation, which for you would be unmarxist?
I think you fall into Kausky’s error of separating the political and the economic and your assertions would seem to see imperialism as a “preferred” choice. By doing this you obviously underestimate its power and influence, you imagine people can just reject governments and freely set up their own systems without any fight from imperialist powers, I’m not sure the people of South America would agree with that.
Lenin also does not see the struggle for a state as a petite bourgeoisie demand but a natural outcome of the struggle.
This standpoint inevitably makes you an imperialist apologist.
Now some countries such as Iran are enemies of these powers and some, such as Saudi Arabia are friends, this just reflects the historical conflicts of imperialism. This is a real material condition and will exist even if the Iranians get rid of their leaders; we, as socialists in the west, don’t have the influence to divert them from this struggle and to imply we do is absurd.
Lenin makes the point about workers being bound to their leaders as a result of imperialism due to super profits and he sees it as a problem like me. As he says some workers in the imperialist powers have become watchdogs of Capitalism and corruptors of the Labour movement. With the massive amount of funding pumped into Israel by the US and favourable trading agreements offered by Europe what better watchdogs of capitalism and corruptors of the Labour movement than the workers of Israel. A struggle against them would be a worthy one indeed.
I, however, believe he underestimates the problem because like you he underestimates the power of an idea. Once the material conditions for super profits disappears then the ability to bribe disappears, it can no longer exist but the idea created out of these conditions, namely a proletariat that sees itself as better than other proletarians won’t just disappear because super profits have gone, this idea can linger and outlive the material conditions from which they were born, like some great religion. This idea can also include more workers than Lenin imagined as the idea can spread to even those not bribed by super profits. Like the ideas of other religions it can span epochs, albeit in different forms and weakening this idea by opposing imperialism in all cases should be a job for socialists.
The workers in the west have been given a very great job by history, the front line in the fight for socialism, unless that fight is won then it doesn’t matter who leads in Iran or who leads the Palestinian struggle, it will never be socialists.
I fully support point 4 of Lenin’s draft for the Second Congress of the Communist International but I disagree with you on the tactics and we will both have to accept that.
I believe by the unqualified resistance of oppression by our ruling classes we can set the example, raise consciousness to oppression in general and break this link of worker to ruler. This cannot be the only strategy but must form part of the struggle.
BNP attempt number 5,
Is the BNP union a real union or just a collection of workers based on some racist ideology. Does it exist as a real union, being as it is a collection of workers from over here, to a policeman over there to a factory worker from somewhere else. How could this union possibly get involved in strike action? Please tell me.
Can this make the BNP more progressive, I can’t see how it could based on your strike proposition. If under your incredible scenario it were to launch a series of strikes against oppressive bosses then it would have to have gained a considerable support from a mass of workers all working in the same place. The reality of everyday worker problems may force it to become progressive as a result and the current leadership may eventually be replaced by less extreme people. If, however, it continues to attack immigrants etc, then it will be an oppressor, like Israel and not a fighter for the oppressed, like Hamas.
Now you repeated the argument used by a million conservatives throughout the world that sanctions and boycotts against Israel were counter productive. But didn’t these sanctions create the conditions for the Black masses to rise up against the apartheid regime and did you not call for the boycotting of Silent Night beds. Was this done during your petite bourgeoisie phase?
The current economic crisis will not likely bring about an impetus for socialism but one for the arms industry. A new war against the clerical fascists, the evil doers, the genocidal maniacs, all in the name of bourgeoisie liberalism and cheered on by the right wing media and of course, you.
Cluffy,
If you are going to give extensive quotes could you please reference them, and if possible provide a link to the source. I know in this case that the quotes come from Lenin’s “Imperialism”, but that is own to my extensive knowledge of Lenin’s writings. Other readers may not have that knowledge, and it is unfair to ask them to put on trust that the quotes are not taken out of context. Besides in other cases it could waste my time checking the quotes in order to properly respond.
In reply.
1) Lenin is replying in part to Kautsky, and the idea that imperialism was evolving towards a super-imperialism, which would enable Capitalists to co-operate on a global scale to overcome some of the problems arising from Capitalist crisis. It is in that sense he attacks the idea that “imperialism is not so bad”. I have never said that “imperialism is not so bad”. In fact, Kautsky’s analysis proved more accurate in the long term than was Lenin’s. A kind of “super-imperialism” did emerge after WWII under US hegemony. International organisations such as the WTO, and IMF were created to manage Capitalism on a global scale. But, they could not eradicate Capitalist crisis, nor as US hegemony began to weaken, and as the glue of the USSR that welded that super-imperialism together disappeared, it necessarily fractured into a group of competing “super-imperialisms” essentially, Europe, the US, and Asia around a Japan/China axis.
2) Lenin’s description of the power of finance capital is largely valid, though in reality because Lenin based his “Imperialism” largely on Hilferding’s “Finance Capital”, which in turn was based on an analysis of German Capitalism, which was not typical of British, French or European Capital, he overstates its role in the world economy vis a vis industrial capital. It has been industrial capital in the form of huge multinational corporations that have been the hallmark of imperialist expansion in the period after WWII. Lenin, of course, could not have known that because such modern multinational corporations did not exist at the time he was writing. That is a problem with those such as yourself who unthinkingly copy Lenin’s words from “Imperialism” and try to force them to fit the modern world.
But, so what. Lenin’s argument here against Kautsky, and it actually applies equally to your own position is that,
“Advancing this definition of imperialism brings us into complete contradiction to K. Kautsky, who refuses to regard imperialism as a “phase of capitalism” and defines it as a policy “preferred” by finance capital”
That is precisely the argument I have put to you. That Imperialism is a phase of Capitalism on a global scale. It is not a preferred policy, the preference for which “anti-imperialists” can force to be dropped.
Show me where Lenin in any of these writings proposes as a solution to this problem a struggle against “imperialism” that is based on winning political independence for countries that are already politically independent! Lenin’s answer is that which I have put forward, not a struggle against imperialist, but a struggle against Capitalism! And for the very good reason that imperialism is the latest phase OF Capitalism.
Nowhere he does Lenin argue against that imperialism investing in less developed economies, and so on which is the leit motif behind your writings. It would have been totally contrary to his views. Instead, Lenin’s method was a struggle within each Capitalist country including those less developed economies for the interests of the working class.
3) “Neither Marx nor Engels lived to see lived to see the imperialist epoch of world capitalism…But it has been a peculiar feature of England that even in the middle of the nineteenth century she already revealed at least two major distinguishing features of imperialism (1) Vast colonies, and (2) monopoly profit.”
Likewise, Lenin did not live to see the ending of that world divided into colonies, and to which his main writings were based around, necessarily. Again you are trying to shoehorn Lenin’s writings about a world long since past into the modern world.
4) “Capitalism itself gradually provides the subjugated with the means and resources for their emancipation and they set out to achieve the goal which once seemed highest to the European nations: the creation of a united national state as a means to economic and cultural freedom. This movement for national independence threatens European capital in its most valuable and most promising fields of exploitation, and European capital can maintain its domination only by continually increasing its military forces”
That was true at the time Lenin was writing. It was not true, and has not been true since WWII. On the contrary, the establishment of bourgeois democratic regimes in these countries, and the relative stability enjoyed has provided Capital with just what it wanted, vast new areas of the world within which to export surplus Capital, and to exploit vast reservoirs of Labour. In so doing it has done just what Lenin said,
” provide(d) the subjugated with the means and resources for their emancipation and they set out to achieve the goal which once seemed highest to the European nations: the creation of a united national state as a means to economic and cultural freedom.”
That is why whole geographical areas such as Asia, which were once Colonies, or semi-colonies, now not only enjoy political freedom, but have also developed economically to the extent that they now export Capital, and exert economic and political influence over yet other areas, hence for example the huge export of Capital by China, its increasing political influence around the globe, and the indebtedness of the US to it.
5) “We see no trace of understanding of the fact that imperialism is inseparably bound up with capitalism in its present form and that, therefore [!!], an open struggle against imperialism would be hopeless, unless, perhaps, the fight were to be confined to protests against certain of its especially abhorrent excesses.”
Did you actually read this quote before you copied it? Did you understand it? It is you that wants to see “imperialism” as separable from Capitalism. It is you that wants to focus on an anti-imperialist struggle. Read what Lenin says, because it is inseparable it is IMPOSSIBLE to struggle against imperialism WITHOUT struggling against Capitalism.
Impossible that is unless you want to limit that struggle against “Imperialism” to being what you want it to be a moralistic “protest against certain of its especially abhorrent excesses.”. It is you that Lenin is criticising here, and your Fabian, reformist limiting of the struggle within bourgeois democratic limits.
6) “Would abhorrent excesses not sum up Israel’s actions and would this not need some emotional evaluation, which for you would be unmarxist?”
Yes, it would, and read what Lenin says above about those Fabians who want to confine the struggle to a protest against such excesses. Its me and Lenin that are on solid Marxist ground here, and you that is sharing the ground with the Fabians.
7) “I think you fall into Kausky’s error of separating the political and the economic and your assertions would seem to see imperialism as a “preferred” choice.”
You don’t understand Lenin’s criticism of Kautsky in what he means by his separating the economic and the political. Kautsky was arguing that a super-imperialism could avert a new imperialist war, by managing the world economy. That is the political that Lenin is referring to. Lenin was quite aware of the difference between the economic role of imperialism as a phase of Capitalism, and the political nature of colonial rule. That is why he argues for an anti-colonialist struggle, but you will not find anything in Lenin of an “anti-imperialist” struggle, that is in any way separated from a struggle against Capitalism. For, countries that are politically free that means a struggle against the ruling capitalist class of that country, the very ruling classes you want to jump into bed with.
8) “By doing this you obviously underestimate its power and influence, you imagine people can just reject governments and freely set up their own systems without any fight from imperialist powers, I’m not sure the people of South America would agree with that.”
Really, I suggest asking all those people that elected Chavez, or Lula or Morales. Last time I looked most South American countries now have their governments elected by their people. I think you must be reading the wrong newspapers.
9) “Lenin also does not see the struggle for a state as a petite bourgeoisie demand but a natural outcome of the struggle.
This standpoint inevitably makes you an imperialist apologist.”
a) You’d have to explain how what you say makes me an imperialist apologist.
b) Lenin says repeatedly that the demand for self-determination is a bourgeois-democratic demand, which cannot stand higher for a Marxist than our struggle for socialism. I can give you literally dozens of references if you like.
10) “Now some countries such as Iran are enemies of these powers and some, such as Saudi Arabia are friends, this just reflects the historical conflicts of imperialism.”
But hang on you’ve only just told us that people are NOT free to choose their governments, that imperialism dictates to them who they will be, militarily intervenes to impose them on them, and so on. Could you make your mind up, which it is.
11) “This is a real material condition and will exist even if the Iranians get rid of their leaders; we, as socialists in the west, don’t have the influence to divert them from this struggle and to imply we do is absurd.”
This doesn’t make logical or grammatical sense. What is a material condition? Divert them who from what struggle?
12) “Lenin makes the point about workers being bound to their leaders as a result of imperialism due to super profits and he sees it as a problem like me.”
In 1920 it was. Today, it’s the US that gets screwed by Finance Capital in China, the Middle East, Russia, Japan, and elsewhere. It is Capital flows out of the US to these foreign Capitalists i.e. flows of surplus value created by US workers, that characterises the world economy, not vice versa. The same is true of Britain. The reality of life for US workers is not high living standards, based on a share in the exploitation of foreign workers by US Capital, but falling real wages, for the last 30 years, and the maintenance of living standards by going into massive debt that has resulted in the Credit Crunch.
13) “With the massive amount of funding pumped into Israel by the US and favourable trading agreements offered by Europe what better watchdogs of capitalism and corruptors of the Labour movement than the workers of Israel. A struggle against them would be a worthy one indeed.”
What utter nonsense. Nowhere does Lenin argue for a struggle against British workers corrupted by higher living standards due to Britain’s colonial loot!!!! He argues against the Trade Union bureaucrats, but not against the workers. And, of course, Marxists would encourage Jewish workers to establish rank and file organisations and fight against the corruption of their own labour Movement by those same bureaucrats, but you do not do that by committing yourself to a struggle against the workers! What a terrible position for a Marxist to advocate, especially one who would support even a strike led by the BNP.
14) “I, however, believe he underestimates the problem because like you he underestimates the power of an idea. Once the material conditions for super profits disappears then the ability to bribe disappears, it can no longer exist but the idea created out of these conditions, namely a proletariat that sees itself as better than other proletarians won’t just disappear because super profits have gone, this idea can linger and outlive the material conditions from which they were born, like some great religion. This idea can also include more workers than Lenin imagined as the idea can spread to even those not bribed by super profits. Like the ideas of other religions it can span epochs, albeit in different forms and weakening this idea by opposing imperialism in all cases should be a job for socialists.”
Sorry, this is economically, philosophically and politically illiterate. You don’t tell us what a struggle against imperialism in an age of free, politically independent states means. You talk about ending “super-profits”. We can only assume that what you mean then is that more economically developed Capitalist countries cease investing in less developed countries. Propose that and most of the people in those less developed economies would string you from the nearest lamppost, because without that investment their economies would be stagnant, they would lack jobs, and they would be even poorer than they are today. Suppose, that investment stopped. The people in those countries would still want to buy the goods that those firms produced. I take it you would not seek to tell people what they can and cannot buy. In that case they would not have to import those goods, which would now be produced more expensively in the imperialist home country. The less developed country would become even poorer again trying to sell what it could – usually agricultural products or raw materials on the world market. Your proposal is effectively to return these countries to agricultural, pre-industrial societies, with the attendant feudal ideas that go with it. Once again Marx was accurate when he described the politics of people like you as reactionary:
”In its positive aims, however, this form of Socialism aspires either to restoring the old means of production and of exchange, and with them the old property relations, and the old society, or to cramping the modern means of production and of exchange within the framework of the old property relations that have been, and were bound to be, exploded by those means. In either case, it is both reactionary and Utopian.
Its last words are: corporate guilds for manufacture; patriarchal relations in agriculture.”
The Communist Manifesto.
Taken to its logical conclusion your argument here implies a stoppage of international trade, a factor which Marx, Lenin and every other Marxist in between or after has recognised as being one of the most progressive results of Capitalist development. It would set mankind back centuries, it would reduce living standards dramatically and bring forward again the worst kind of reactionary ideas in whole swathes of society.
15) “The workers in the west have been given a very great job by history, the front line in the fight for socialism, unless that fight is won then it doesn’t matter who leads in Iran or who leads the Palestinian struggle, it will never be socialists.”
The material conditions for socialism exist as much in Iran, as they do in Britain or the US. The Iranian workers have as much duty to struggle for socialism now as do the British or American workers. The Iranian workers main problem at the moment is not imperialism, but the rule of their own ruling class, and the rule of the mullahs as the political representatives of that ruling class, with its reactionary theocratic semi-feudal laws. The first task of the Iranian workers is to remove that government, in order to win the basic bourgeois-democratic freedoms that would enable it to function, to establish legal trade unions, workers parties and so on, and from there to establish workers co-operatives etc. in order to begin to transform the material basis of the productive relations. The experience of the Russian revolution and other revolutions before it is that history does not proceed in a straight line, and less developed societies can jump over more developed societies. Your analysis here suffers from a linear view of history.
16) “I fully support point 4 of Lenin’s draft for the Second Congress of the Communist International but I disagree with you on the tactics and we will both have to accept that”
You can’t do both. My tactics are the tactics that Lenin sets out in the Draft Thesis. You can’t say you agree with Lenin, and say you disagree with him at the same time.
Lenin argues for,
” the need for a struggle against the clergy and other influential reactionary and medieval elements in backward countries;
third, the need to combat Pan-Islamism and similar trends, which strive to combine the liberation movement against European and American imperialism with an attempt to strengthen the positions of the khans, landowners, mullahs, etc”
whereas you want to give support to those self-same clergy and reactionary and medieaval elements, those self same, “khans, landowners, mullahs etc.”
Amazing. If that’s you supporting Lenin, I’d hate to see you disagreeing with him!
17) “I believe by the unqualified resistance of oppression by our ruling classes we can set the example, raise consciousness to oppression in general and break this link of worker to ruler. This cannot be the only strategy but must form part of the struggle.”
You would have to tell me who our ruling class is oppressing and how, before I could comment. Our ruling class is not oppressing the Iranian workers, the Iranian ruling class is doing that. That applies to almost every country you can name.
18) “Is the BNP union a real union or just a collection of workers based on some racist ideology. Does it exist as a real union, being as it is a collection of workers from over here, to a policeman over there to a factory worker from somewhere else. How could this union possibly get involved in strike action? Please tell me.”
Quite easily. It could have a large presence in some workplace, and strike against the employer for higher wages.
19) “Can this make the BNP more progressive, I can’t see how it could based on your strike proposition. If under your incredible scenario it were to launch a series of strikes against oppressive bosses then it would have to have gained a considerable support from a mass of workers all working in the same place. The reality of everyday worker problems may force it to become progressive as a result and the current leadership may eventually be replaced by less extreme people. If, however, it continues to attack immigrants etc, then it will be an oppressor, like Israel and not a fighter for the oppressed, like Hamas.”
The Nazis gained the support of lots of workers. That didn’t force them to become progressive. On the contrary, when they were in power Hitler killed off the left-wing of the Nazis represented by the Strasserites in the Knight of the Long Knives, before turning on the workers. Hamas doesn’t wait for that it has attacked socialists and Trade Unionists from day one. You are mixing the analogy. We are comparing a Trade Union which fights oppression by fighting for workers interests against the bosses. On your definition that HAMAS fights against Israel you argue it is progressive. On that argument a Trade Union that fights for workers against bosses is progressive even if it is led by a group of Nazis. You reject that idea in relation to the BNP Union on the basis that its fighting the oppression of the workers is overridden by the reactionary politics of the BNP in general, but in that case you would have to argue that by the same token leading a struggle against Israel cannot make HAMAS progressive, because you would have to take into consideration its overall reactionary politics, its attacks on Palestinian workers, socialists, women LGBT people and so on. Your argument does not stand up.
20) “Now you repeated the argument used by a million conservatives throughout the world that sanctions and boycotts against Israel were counter productive. But didn’t these sanctions create the conditions for the Black masses to rise up against the apartheid regime and did you not call for the boycotting of Silent Night beds. Was this done during your petite bourgeoisie phase?”
No the boycott of South African products didn’t cause the black masses to rise up. Far more important in that respect was the organisation of black workers in COSATU. To the extent that sanctions caused job losses in South Africa and limited the number of jobs for Black Workers it was immediately contrary to the task of unionising workers. You can only unionise workers if they have jobs! I called for the boycotting of Silent Night beds at a time when the workers at the Silentnight factory were on strike, and those beds were being produced by scab labour. The proper comparison would be to call for the boycotting of goods produced by workers in a Third Country who were producing goods that otherwise would have been produced by black South African workers had it not been for them losing their jobs due to western liberals blacking their products. The exact opposite of the argument you want to make.
21) “The current economic crisis will not likely bring about an impetus for socialism but one for the arms industry. A new war against the clerical fascists, the evil doers, the genocidal maniacs, all in the name of bourgeoisie liberalism and cheered on by the right wing media and of course, you.”
There is no immediate correlation between the current downturn and arms production. The current downturn is likely to be short-lived before the Long Wave boom resumes later this year, and that will increase workers confidence and combativity. The immediate consequences seem to be that the US under Obama is holding out an olive branch to the Iranian rulers and others. And why wouldn’t they, they represent the interests of the same ruling Capitalist class.
Your last snipe seems again to be the words of someone who has lost the argument, and run out of ideas. Again without an argument to stand on, you resort to unsubstantiated insults. Nothing I have written above even suggests I favour a war by imperialism against anyone. On the contrary, its you whose arguments are based upon you lining up with various bourgeois forces of different degrees of reaction for a war against the workers of other countries. Unlike you, I am a Marxist, I will stay on the side of the workers, and leave it to you to side with the bosses and reactionaries.
Thanks for that barrage of imperialist apology which is prevalent in your work, which I will allow the readers to look over your writings and make up their own minds of the validity of that statement.
The source is Boffyblog.Blogspot.com
You often quote Lenin even though you suggest that his views are inappropriate for the conditions of the modern world. His he still relevant or not?
Let’s quote from Boffy instead,
“What a terrible position for a Marxist to advocate, especially one who would support even a strike led by the BNP.”
“Unlike you, I am a Marxist, I will stay on the side of the workers, and leave it to you to side with the bosses and reactionaries.”
We now see that you would support the oppressive bosses against the workers in these cases, it’s the only logical conclusion you can come to. Your quote should have at least said, “I will stay on the side of workers if they abide by a set of rules decided by me!”
Infact you have totally misrepresented my position on the BNP issue in such a fundamental way that it is futile to press on with this line of debate, therefore, I have nothing left to say about the BNP except that you said could it become more progressive not that it definitely would.
“Far more important in that respect was the organisation of black workers in COSATU. To the extent that sanctions caused job losses in South Africa and limited the number of jobs for Black Workers it was immediately contrary to the task of unionising workers. You can only unionise workers if they have jobs!”
So only workers in unions can fight oppression, my god socialism is up the creek without a paddle!
“The immediate consequences seem to be that the US under Obama is holding out an olive branch to the Iranian rulers and others. And why wouldn’t they, they represent the interests of the same ruling Capitalist class.”
So the ruling capitalist class across the nations of the world are not in competition with each other, what kind of Marxist economic analysis is this?
“Iran is a capitalist society run by the mullahs”
You call Iran capitalist and then in other writings say it’s medieval, come on Boffy, which is it. If Iran is capitalist and the USA is capitalist then it comes down to a bourgeoisie liberal evaluation of Islam v Secular consumerism/Christianity. Then we’d have to have an argument about what is more progressive, women who wear veils or women who wear mini skirts.
You put in your last post
I said, 16) “I fully support point 4 of Lenin’s draft for the Second Congress of the Communist International but I disagree with you on the tactics and we will both have to accept that”
You said, You can’t do both. My tactics are the tactics that Lenin sets out in the Draft Thesis. You can’t say you agree with Lenin, and say you disagree with him at the same time.
Lenin argues for,
” the need for a struggle against the clergy and other influential reactionary and medieval elements in backward countries;”
But point 4 says this,
“4) From these fundamental premises it follows that the Communist International’s entire policy on the national and the colonial questions should rest primarily on a closer union of the proletarians and the working masses of all nations and countries for a joint revolutionary struggle to overthrow the landowners and the bourgeoisie. This union alone will guarantee victory over capitalism, without which the abolition of national oppression and inequality is impossible. “
My point is that we as workers in the west should oppose the oppression/interests of our ruling class. We should not line up with our oppressors against Iran’s ruling classes; doing so would increase nationalism among our workers and turn their struggle from a class one to a racial one and by doing that you serve the reaction. You have already said that super profits have diminished but do the workers in the west turn their gaze to the ruling classes and begin a socialist struggle as Lenin would have predicted, no they cling onto ruling class tripe about hook men and mad mullah’s.
The point about there being no super profits anymore is exactly my point that the ideas that those profits brought about are still with us and it is those that need to be struggled against.
This of course does not mean that we as workers should not support Iranian socialists but when our ruling class comes into conflict with their ruling class we have to expose our ruling class interests and oppose them.
I would argue that we are in one of those periods of relative peace that Lenin mentioned and that imperialist conflicts are not over. Now history shows that imperialist powers often join together to combat other/emerging powers, China is one of those emerging powers and we will see how this plays out. Now in this world of nuclear weapons technology the out and out wars that were a feature of the past is unfeasible I will accept that but these imperialist conflicts will take a different character and will have different consequences.
I really hope I am wrong but my point about western workers historic battle is that even if people in Iran or Venezuela were to have left leaning governments, these governments would be doomed to fail as socialist governments because the military powers in the west would do everything to see that it failed. Just look at how socialist governments have been forced to develop as a result of this, you mentioned Vietnam in an earlier post, haven’t they become repressive because of outside forces? These socialist governments set back the cause dreadfully and repression becomes associated with socialism. Weakening the west would strengthen the socialist cause in the rest of the world, even if it did mean the short term victory for clerical fascists. (Point 11 in your previous diatribe against me answers your question here).
Therefore my argument is not a linear one but is based upon the present imbalance of the modern world, whereas your idea is that every progressive victory is necessarily a victory for socialism.
My argument here is a tactical one, like Lenin I do not have a crystal ball to look into, my tactics may fail or become out dated but I think they stand up under the current realities of the world balance of power.
How many communists did the USA kill in the twentieth century, it was the hallmark of their foreign policy , they make Hitler look hopeless in this respect and if communism was to make a comeback the murder would start all over again. The problem with your analysis is that you ignore the barbarity of our class out in the wider world and imagine the west = Gay rights and “free” thought.
You said,
“Lenin was quite aware of the difference between the economic role of imperialism as a phase of Capitalism, and the political nature of colonial rule. “
“That is why he argues for an anti-colonialist struggle, but you will not find anything in Lenin of an “anti-imperialist” struggle, that is in any way separated from a struggle against Capitalism.”
Lenin said,
“Neither Marx nor Engels lived to see lived to see the imperialist epoch of world capitalism…But it has been a peculiar feature of England that even in the middle of the nineteenth century she already revealed at least two major distinguishing features of imperialism (1) Vast colonies, and (2) monopoly profit.”
Lenin says that a distinguishing feature of Imperialism was Colonies; I am arguing that these colonies still exist but in different forms, you are saying that they don’t exist; therefore you say imperialism does not exist and is no longer the preferred choice of Capitalism.
You said,
“It is you that wants to see “imperialism” as separable from Capitalism. It is you that wants to focus on an anti-imperialist struggle. Read what Lenin says, because it is inseparable it is IMPOSSIBLE to struggle against imperialism WITHOUT struggling against Capitalism.”
So you at least admit that my fight against Imperialism is a fight against Capitalism and therefore your apology for imperialism is an apology for capitalism.
More from Boffy,
“Nowhere does Lenin argue for a struggle against British workers corrupted by higher living standards due to Britain’s colonial loot!!!! He argues against the Trade Union bureaucrats, but not against the workers. And, of course, Marxists would encourage Jewish workers to establish rank and file organisations and fight against the corruption of their own labour Movement by those same bureaucrats, but you do not do that by committing yourself to a struggle against the workers!”
My argument is that because of Israel’s history and place in the world the Israeli labour movement as a whole can only be watchdogs of capitalism and corruptors of the labour movement in the medium and short term, and therefore your call for a fight against the corruption of their own labour movement echoes mine. This goes to the heart of your argument, the Palestinians have to wait until the Israeli’s are ready to accommodate them in a joint struggle, and you therefore enforce an age of barbarity against the Palestinians, instead of struggling against it.
Finally, lets get back to Israel Palestine, you wrote the following pathetic stomach churning apology for yet another Israeli atrocity and not one I suspect that will have impressed all you socialist friends in Iran and anywhere else in the world for that matter
“Yesterday the news was full of the attack by an Israeli Tank crew on a UN school in Gaza. According to Israel the soldiers had come under fire from the school. I don't know if that is true, we probably never will know. It could be one of the atrocities referred to above. On the other hand there seems little to be gained for Israel or the individual soldiers from such an act in the full glare of international publicity. If the soldiers were under fire I find it very difficult to condemn them for responding. Urban warfare by its nature leads to civilian casualties. If a guerilla army uses civilians as human shields, and we know that Hamas has done so in the past, then such casualties are inevitable.”
This logic tells us that the Nazi storm troopers who gassed all the Jews and all the paramilitaries who kill trade unionists should be forgiven as they are fools following orders and that no moral outrage should be felt about anything as everything is a calculation in the grand scheme of things. Workers do feel emotions and outrage because they associate the oppression felt by Palestinians to their own and you arrogantly telling them that’s moribund from the comfort of your own Villa or wherever it is you are will NOT CHANGE THAT!
You also say in the full glare of the media but that assumes a media that is balanced and fair and not a tool of the ruling class, a strange position for a marxist to take.
You said,
“Your last snipe seems again to be the words of someone who has lost the argument, and run out of ideas.”
The argument is to support the Palestinians or Israel; I think it is you who are losing this argument, especially among the workers of Iran and all those other workers you claim to support.
“Thanks for that barrage of imperialist apology which is prevalent in your work,”
Again you resort to ridiculous slurs without evidence. The method not just of someone whose ideas are bankrupt, but who lacks even basic principles.
“You often quote Lenin even though you suggest that his views are inappropriate for the conditions of the modern world. His he still relevant or not?”
Lenin was a Marxist. As Marx and Engels themselves said their writings were not to be taken as some kind of Bible. What they provided was a method of analysis. To the extent that Lenin provides us with a method for analysing various phenomena he is useful, but it is up to us to use our brains to analyse current reality not try to squeeze some writings from more than 80 years ago into the conditions of today.
“We now see that you would support the oppressive bosses against the workers in these cases, it’s the only logical conclusion you can come to. Your quote should have at least said, “I will stay on the side of workers if they abide by a set of rules decided by me!””
How on Earth even in your contorted mind could you arrive at that conclusion??? My comment “what a terrible position for a Marxist to advocate" came in response to your call for a struggle against workers!!!! You said,
““With the massive amount of funding pumped into Israel by the US and favourable trading agreements offered by Europe what better watchdogs of capitalism and corruptors of the Labour movement than the workers of Israel. A struggle against them would be a worthy one indeed.”
So we can all see who wants to be on the side of the bosses against the workers here. Its you. You admit, you want a struggle against Jewish workers, and by implication from your quote you would have favoured a struggle against British workers too!!!!
Show us where I have said that I would support the bosses “in these cases”, cases again which you fail to specify, or give any evidence towards!
“Infact you have totally misrepresented my position on the BNP issue in such a fundamental way that it is futile to press on with this line of debate, therefore, I have nothing left to say about the BNP except that you said could it become more progressive not that it definitely would.”
I’m not surprised you want to drop it, because it shows the fallacy of your argument. You have gone from an argument to defend your support for clerical-fascists, to having to defend the BNP and argue that it would be progressive if it led a strike against the bosses!!!! So rather than recognise that your logic leads you to reactionary conclusions you run away from the truth.
“So only workers in unions can fight oppression, my god socialism is up the creek without a paddle!”
Where did I say that? I said,
“Far more important in that respect was the organisation of black workers in COSATU.”
Either you can’t read or you can’t understand or both, or else you routinely just misrepresent other peoples arguments, which I am beginning to think constitutes your entire method. Nothing in that statement says that workers can ONLY fight for socialism in Trade Unions as everyone can see.
“So the ruling capitalist class across the nations of the world are not in competition with each other, what kind of Marxist economic analysis is this?”
The same that Marx himself gave when he described the way in which although, different capitalists and groups of Capitalists compete against each other they combine as a class in opposition to the working class. He developed it as a theory you might have heard of. Its called class struggle.
“You call Iran capitalist and then in other writings say it’s medieval, come on Boffy, which is it. If Iran is capitalist and the USA is capitalist then it comes down to a bourgeoisie liberal evaluation of Islam v Secular consumerism/Christianity. Then we’d have to have an argument about what is more progressive, women who wear veils or women who wear mini skirts.”
I suggest you read what I have said again. I described HAMAS, and other clerical-fascist groups as having a medievalist ideology. They do. That does not change the class nature, or the economic system in Iran does it. Russia was a Capitalist economy with a Capitalist State under the Tsar, it didn’t change the fact that Tsarist political rule was feudal, or that in the running of the Court and reliance on people like Rasputin it was not clearly medievalist. As for your last two statements I can only against say what a terrible statement for a Marxist to make, but clearly you are no Marxist. Your Islam v Secular consumerism dichotomy is not the way a Marxist analyses such phenomena. A Marxist begins with an objective class analysis of the two states not your superficial, subjectivist analysis presented here. As both are Capitalist states they are both equally reactionary, both enemies of the working class. The fact that one has a bourgeois democratic government, and the other a theocratic authoritarian government is not significant for that analysis. As Trotsky says, fascism and democracy are just two masks of the same thing, Capitalism.
“My point is that we as workers in the west should oppose the oppression/interests of our ruling class. We should not line up with our oppressors against Iran’s ruling classes; doing so would increase nationalism among our workers and turn their struggle from a class one to a racial one and by doing that you serve the reaction.”
I agree, and you can’t show a single quote from me saying anything different. The point is that you want to line up with the oppressors of the Palestinian workers, socialists, Trade Unionsts, Women and LGBT people i.e. with HAMAS, you want to line up with the representatives of the oppressors of the Iranian workers, socialists trade unionists, women and LGBT people, i.e. the Iranian mullahs. Instead of doing what Lenin calls for in the quote you give,
“From these fundamental premises it follows that the Communist International’s entire policy on the national and the colonial questions should rest primarily on a closer union of the proletarians and the working masses of all nations and countries for a joint revolutionary struggle to overthrow the landowners and the bourgeoisie. This union alone will guarantee victory over capitalism, without which the abolition of national oppression and inequality is impossible.”
You want to line up with the representatives of those landowners and clergy AGAINST the Jewish workers. Your position is the direct opposite of that advocated by Lenin in the quote you have given yourself.
“You have already said that super profits have diminished but do the workers in the west turn their gaze to the ruling classes and begin a socialist struggle as Lenin would have predicted, no they cling onto ruling class tripe about hook men and mad mullah’s.”
So what? Now instead of building that working class unity across borders that Lenin says, “without which the abolition of national oppression and inequality is impossible.” You want to attack western workers and instead make an alliance with those reactionary mullahs??????
“The point about there being no super profits anymore is exactly my point that the ideas that those profits brought about are still with us and it is those that need to be struggled against.”
I don’t think that is true. Racism in Britain today is not based on any privileged position of British workers. It is based rather on the falling living standards of many white workers, and a seeking for easy solutions to their problems given that the Labour movement has failed to provide adequate solutions itself. Racism is not due to a success of the bourgeoisie, but a failure of socialists.
“This of course does not mean that we as workers should not support Iranian socialists but when our ruling class comes into conflict with their ruling class we have to expose our ruling class interests and oppose them.”
Absolutely, but doing that does not require us to give any support to the Iranian ruling class as you advocate.
“I would argue that we are in one of those periods of relative peace that Lenin mentioned and that imperialist conflicts are not over. Now history shows that imperialist powers often join together to combat other/emerging powers, China is one of those emerging powers and we will see how this plays out. Now in this world of nuclear weapons technology the out and out wars that were a feature of the past is unfeasible I will accept that but these imperialist conflicts will take a different character and will have different consequences.”
I’m not aware of any real examples of emerging economies being combated by a combination of imperialist powers as you argue. On the contrary, most of the success stories of the period since the second world war have been of economies that have developed rapidly largely based on initial significant inflows of investment from imperialist states. India is a good example, and another that blows out of the water your simplistic notion of colonialism/imperialism. How would you classify India which was a colony, and which now exploits British steel workers through Mittal Steel, British car workers at Jaguar/Land Rover through Tata Motors and so on?
“I really hope I am wrong but my point about western workers historic battle is that even if people in Iran or Venezuela were to have left leaning governments, these governments would be doomed to fail as socialist governments because the military powers in the west would do everything to see that it failed.”
This is a different argument. We have not been talking about workers states, but about independent bourgeois states. Now clearly, Capitalism will try to overthrow a Workers State, but initially that will not be imperialism doing that, it will be the ruling class of that country e.g. Iran. Why single out these countries? Do you not think that the Capitalists will try to overthrow a Workers State in Britain, or France or the US?
“Just look at how socialist governments have been forced to develop as a result of this, you mentioned Vietnam in an earlier post, haven’t they become repressive because of outside forces?”
No, absolutely not. The Vietnamese Stalinists murdered thousands of Vietnamese Trotskyists who were fighting imperialism long before the Stalinists took power. But, yes, Capitalism will seek to isolate a workers state as it did with Russia, and has tried to do with Cuba. That is why Socialism in One Country as advocated by Stalin is a reactionary concept.
“Weakening the west would strengthen the socialist cause in the rest of the world, even if it did mean the short term victory for clerical fascists.”
No it wouldn’t. If the West was weakened as a result of workers struggles here or elsewhere then that would be progressive, and would encourage workers everywhere. But if the West were weakened by the success of the reactionary clerical-fascists you mention that would be a terrible setback for workers here and everywhere else. Immediately, it would mean that the workers in those countries where those clerical-fascists became strong would find that they could not organise. They would face the same kind of oppression that workers face in Iran. Not even Maggie Thatcher made Trade Unions and strike action completely illegal!
“Therefore my argument is not a linear one but is based upon the present imbalance of the modern world, whereas your idea is that every progressive victory is necessarily a victory for socialism.”
Not at all. As Lenin argued, the demand for self-determination is a bourgeois democratic not a socialist demand. In most instances it is still a progressive demand that socialists would support, but not one we put above our socialist aims.
“Lenin says that a distinguishing feature of Imperialism was Colonies; I am arguing that these colonies still exist but in different forms, you are saying that they don’t exist; therefore you say imperialism does not exist and is no longer the preferred choice of Capitalism.”
Lenin is clear. The reason he argues for a programme based around self-determination for Colonial peoples is precisely because that demand frees them from political rule by the Colonial power. If Lenin believed that Colonialism was equal to economic domination of those countries then there would have been no point in demanding self-determination would there? Self-determination cannot change the fact that one economy is weaker than another at a specific moment in time.
A colony is a country, which does not have political independence. No such countries exist any longer. But, that does not mean imperialism does not exist does it? It means that imperialism does not exist in the same form that it existed in 1920. And because the form of imperialism is different it makes no sense to use demands that were appropriate for a different imperialism that existed then. Imperialism exists now as a system of global capitalism marked by combined and uneven development. You cannot, therefore, talk about a “struggle against imperialism” outside of and separate from a struggle against Capitalism, and that struggle against Capitalism first and foremost is a struggle against your own ruling class whether you live in Britain, Iran, or Israel. The only time a “struggle against imperialism” would make any sense outside that would be, for instance if an imperialist power were attempting to bring about regime change, overthrow the State in a particular country. Then clearly, socialists would oppose the imperialist power attempting to bring that about.
“So you at least admit that my fight against Imperialism is a fight against Capitalism and therefore your apology for imperialism is an apology for capitalism.”
No not at all. Read what I said again. I said contrary to Lenin’s statement that a struggle against imperialism is inseparable from a struggle against Capitalism, you do want to separate the two. You want to struggle against imperialism, when it is not immediately that imperialism that oppresses some particular group of workers, but you want to make an alliance with the Capitalists of Iran, of Palestine etc. who are the immediate oppressors and enemies of the workers.
And as I have made no apology for imperialism I can have made no apology for Capitalism either.
“My argument is that because of Israel’s history and place in the world the Israeli labour movement as a whole can only be watchdogs of capitalism and corruptors of the labour movement in the medium and short term”
This just sounds like outright anti-semitism of the worst kind. Why single out Jewish workers for such treatment. What next will you be quoting us the Protocols of the elders of Zion, for God’s sake. If you can say that about Jewish workers you could say it ten times over for British workers whose State enslaved most of the globe, yet you don’t, and so we can only characterise your attack on Jewish workers as vile anti-semitism. No wonder you can give the BNP the benefit of the doubt!
“This goes to the heart of your argument, the Palestinians have to wait until the Israeli’s are ready to accommodate them in a joint struggle, and you therefore enforce an age of barbarity against the Palestinians, instead of struggling against it.”
No they don’t any more than Irish workers had to wait on British workers. But marx still favoured unity between British and Irish workers, and thought that despite Britain’s Imperial history such unity was more than possible.
“This logic tells us that the Nazi storm troopers who gassed all the Jews and all the paramilitaries who kill trade unionists should be forgiven as they are fools following orders and that no moral outrage should be felt about anything as everything is a calculation in the grand scheme of things.”
What total bollocks. Nazi storm troopers were not in fear of their lives from Jews in those camps were they for God’s sake. My argument was not at all that soldiers should not be held accountable for committing atrocities, or that they should be absolved because they were carrying out orders! You have perverted what I said in the most grotesque way, and the fact that you quoted this out of the context of those other statements simply shows that you are thoroughly dishonest. If you were a soldier and you came under fire, and thought you might be killed would you not shoot back? Anyone who wants to read the actual context can do so, including the fact that I referred to the fact that where atrocities were committed by Red Army soldiers Trotsky when he found out had them shot, as opposed to Stalin who simply ignored the atrocities committed by Red Army soldiers when they entered Germany. Again you make my comments out to be just about Israel rather than a comment about the actions of soldiers in conflict situations in general.
That you should have to resort to such falsification and slanders tells us yet again that you lack any principles or decency, and will sink into any sewer in order to justify your vile reactionary ideas.
“You also say in the full glare of the media but that assumes a media that is balanced and fair and not a tool of the ruling class, a strange position for a marxist to take.”
I have no illusions in the bourgeois media, but I’d say those pictures of Vietnamese children with their skin hanging off were hardly designed to prop up US Imperialism would you? I’d say the coverage of UN criticisms of Israeli actions are hardly evidence of the bourgeois media hiding things. If anything the media has been far more critical of Israel – and rightly so – for its over use of force, compared to the actions of HAMAS in launching rockets against civilians, or using Palestinian civilians as human shields. I don’t defend atrocities by any combatants other than in the sense I stated that all wars brutalise those that have to fight them, and so our main condemnation should be against those that send ordinary workers to fight not the workers that do the fighting.
“The argument is to support the Palestinians or Israel; I think it is you who are losing this argument, especially among the workers of Iran and all those other workers you claim to support.”
I’m a Marxist my main job is to support the working class not this or that State. The working class seems to be the last thing you deem it necessary to support. Not surprisingly because from everything you have written you are clearly just a bourgeois nationalist not a socialist. You line up with the reactionary enemies of the workers it seems at every opportunity, and it leads you to advocating vile anti-semitism, and even to defending your logic by telling us that the BNP could become progressive! You are clearly beyond redemption.
“I do not like money, money is the reason we fight.”
Your work is full of slavering, servile celebrations of Imperialism’s achievements, I invite the reader to read your blog and make up their own minds.
Alan Cottrell says,
"In chapter 15 of Capital, vol. 1, ``Machinery and Large-Scale Industry'', Marx offers a masterly account of the impact on the working class of the shift towards mechanization and large-scale industry within the social relations of capitalism. He marshalls a wealth of technical detail on the industrial processes involved and draws on the careful social documentation of the Factory Inspectors, putting this material into a context at once theoretical, historical and moral. He shows himself in command of a large literature in political economy on the subject, much of which he dismisses scathingly as apologetics."
Your cold emotionless view of Marx does the cause great harm, you would have written Capital without Horner’s factory inspector reports because they were moribund emotional nonsense. The only people you will inspire are Humanoid robots and the way capitalist efficiency is going you may yet come into fashion in say 100 years time.
More from you,
“I’m not aware of any real examples of emerging economies being combated by a combination of imperialist powers as you argue.”
This has to be some sort of joke, Germany was an up and coming imperial power and I think that led to some sort of conflict didn’t it. Infact Lenin’s writing is full of this antagonism.
I acknowledge India and China are emerging powers and as I said we will have to see how this plays out.
More from you,
"As for your last two statements I can only against say what a terrible statement for a Marxist to make, but clearly you are no Marxist. Your Islam v Secular consumerism dichotomy is not the way a Marxist analyses such phenomena. A Marxist begins with an objective class analysis of the two states not your superficial, subjectivist analysis presented here. As both are Capitalist states they are both equally reactionary, both enemies of the working class."
Thats the exact point I was making, I said if you would bother to read it that such an evaluation would be a Bougoisie liberal one. And you say I distort your veiws!
Karl Marx said in the Communist manifesto,
“In proportion as the exploitation of one individual by another is put an end to, the exploitation of one nation by another will also be put an end to. In proportion as the antagonism between classes within the nation vanishes, the hostility of one nation to another will come to an end.”
The exploitation of one nation to another put to an end, Marx wants to abolish free trade, the reactionary!
More from you,
“As Trotsky says, fascism and democracy are just two masks of the same thing, Capitalism.”
Then why do you constantly compare Hitler to Hamas, you should be comparing Hitler to Britain and Israel. This shows your utter bias in the issue.
You constantly compare the Hamas supporting Palestinians to Hitler and the BNP, you equate the BNP and Hitler with people suffering the most barbaric oppression and you accuse me of anti Semitism. Jewish people are like everyone else, their characters and ideas etc are formed by the material conditions into which they were born, and they are no different from anyone else. They are capable of beauty, art, cruelty and barbarism as are Muslims, Catholics and anyone else for that matter.
I said a struggle against the Israeli’s, I will not decide what form that takes, the Palestinians will, and it will be as a result of their oppression. Hamas were elected by the Palestinian people, your views necessarily paint them as genocidal lunatics and you call me racist.
Your idea to prolong the agony of Palestinians is outright anti Muslim, you justify the mass killing of their children as your obnoxious quote proves. You repeat the right wing BNP thinking person’s stereotypes about Muslims. BNP supporters would applaud your distorted descriptions of them, the pathetic BNP, doomed to inevitable failure are stirring up a war against Muslims in the UK and it is one you will be sure to support as I can imagine their brand of genocidal, medievalist mania seeping into this country will fill you with dread. You will inevitably line up with the BNP to combat it, I will line up on the other side of the barricades.
Your views would apologise for any atrocity committed against them, the following quote from Marx would sum up your character perfectly,
"The profound hypocrisy and inherent barbarism of bourgeois civilization lies unveiled before our eyes, turning from its home, where it assumes respectable forms, to the colonies, where it goes naked."
We have had over 100 years of capitalism, the most reckless economic system in history, since Marx, it’s time to stop fawning over it or apologising for it and start the job of getting rid of it.
Your comment about the Nazi concentration camps is particularly sickening coming from you isn't it. In your statements above you have told us about how much you want a struggle against Jewish workers, and told us of your willingness to see them slaughtered. One would have thought that given your politics you would have thought those guards were doing you a favour in advance.
That is certainly the posiiton of those you want to jump into bed, and whose vile reactioanry politics you apologise for. You told us above about hearing the "progressive" speeches of Ahmedinejad, speeches in which he calls for Israel to be wiped off the map. And your friend Ahmedinejad, of course, denies that the Holocuast ever happened.
Your vile reactionary politics not only leave you spouting vile anti-semitism that calls for a struggle against Jewish workers - a reactioanry position for any socialist to argue - and like all anti-semites basing that on some supposed peculiarity of the Jews history, but in order to defend the logic of that argument leads you to tell us of your hope for the BNP becoming a progressive organisation, as well as leaading you to side with Holocaust deniers. With people like you claiming to be a part of the Labour movement its no wonder we are in such a mess.
Thanks for the considered response to my previous post.
I hope you enjoy the comfort of your bed, with the mass murdering Israeli's. The oppressed of the world will be lining up to follow you...not
As I said, your views will see you fighting WITH the BNP, side by side.
Then you and Nick Griffin can both call me vile!
Final post I promise,
You said, very eloquently,
“Over the last couple of years, I have been engaged in debates with US Libertarians whose economics and politics are derived from the likes of Von Mises and Hayek. A central theme is, “You socialists simply want to steal other people’s property.” Of course, in a sense, that is true. We want to expropriate the property in the form of means of production, which workers need in order to work and to create a better society, and which a tiny minority of the population have monopolised for themselves, in order that they can live lavishly off the backs of the work of others. As far as I am aware, few socialists have much interest in the other forms of wealth, of the rich, such as works of art. As far as I am concerned, they can keep them. But, this act of expropriation of the means of production, currently in the hands of the capitalist class is, of course,, not an act of theft such as that committed by a bank robber or burglar. It is the act of the householder who seeing the goods that were previously stolen from him/her shortcuts the legal process, by taking them back. It is the expropriation of the expropriators. We normally, think of that in terms of the labour-power capitalists steal from workers on a daily basis, and indeed that now over two hundred years of capitalism proper amounts to an immense sum, but that daily theft of workers’ labour would not have been possible without the huge almost single act of robbery committed against the peasants”
Sounds like what the Israeli’s did to the Palestinians to me.
You go on to say,
“The ideologists of Capital paint a picture of a world in which Labour and Capital contract on equal terms, where there is no difference between the individual worker and the individual capitalist engaged in this transaction, both are equal owners of commodities that they bring to market. In this supposed world all individuals are the same. They paint a picture in which workers gladly gave up their own means of production and “rushed” to the towns so that they could be exploited by capitalists. The historical record proves otherwise.”
Sounds like the supposed world you imagine the Israeli’s and Palestinians live in.
Over and out.
You are the one that thinks that the BNP could be progressive as a result of leading strikes not me. You are the one that advocates nationalist not socialist politics not me. You are the one that advocates lining up with various rag tag groups of bourgeois in favour of a struggle against workers not me. You are the one that wants to form an alliance with various clerical-fascists who as we speak ARE murdering workers, trade unionists, socialists, women and LGBT people in their beds. Its clear here that its you that is following the well worn path of people like Mussolini whose grip on socialist ideas and principles was not very sound, whose socialism was elitist and top down and who when that led them to give up on the working class became fascists. You are already more than half way down that road.
“Sounds like what the Israeli’s did to the Palestinians to me.”
There you go again talking in nationalist terms rather than socialist terms. You make no distinction between classes within the national terms Palestinian and Israeli. I have no truck with the Israeli State’s confiscation of Palestinian property, and more than with the Israeli capitalist class’s confiscation of Israeli and Arab workers surplus value. But Palestinian Capitalists of whom Hamas are the political representatives ALSO confiscate Palestinian workers surplus value. Unlike you I am on the side of ALL workers against ALL Capitalists. Your prefer not only to side with Capitalists against workers, but with some of the most reactionary representatives of those Capitalists.
Actually, as part of the programme of democratic and civil rights I propose to address the plight of the Palestinians around which all workers could unite, I would indeed advocate the compensation of Palestinians by the Israeli State, for the property that was confiscated. But, in reality the on going theft of both Jewish and Arab workers surplus value by both Palestinian and Jewish capitalists will only truly be addressed by a struggle for socialism, and that will require the unity of Jewish and Arab workers as Lenin advised in order that such a struggle should be successful. It certainly will not be achieved by encouraging a division of those workers as you propose as part of some clash of civilisations.
“Sounds like the supposed world you imagine the Israeli’s and Palestinians live in.”
Not at all, or I would not be proposing the need for the Arab and Jewish workers to be united around a common programme of class struggle.
“Over and out.”
I think you meant to transmit “Mayday, Mayday”. After all you’ve just crashed and burned.
“Your cold emotionless view of Marx does the cause great harm, you would have written Capital without Horner’s factory inspector reports because they were moribund emotional nonsense. The only people you will inspire are Humanoid robots and the way capitalist efficiency is going you may yet come into fashion in say 100 years time.”
No I wouldn’t because without them you would have a one dimensional view of Capital, and Capitalist development. But, the point is having conducted that analysis, having taken on board the way in which people like Sismondi had revealed the nature of the Capitalist apologists, what was Marx’s conclusion. Was it to follow the type of conclusion you propose, or that Sismondi proposed that of reactionary petit-bouregois socialism? No, it was precisely to condemn Sismondi for that moralistic view, just as Lenin was later to attack the Narodniks for such a view.
Rather Marx was to comment,
“The bourgeoisie, historically, has played a most revolutionary part.
The bourgeoisie, wherever it has got the upper hand, has put an end to all feudal, patriarchal, idyllic relations. It has pitilessly torn asunder the motley feudal ties that bound man to his “natural superiors”, and has left remaining no other nexus between man and man than naked self-interest, than callous “cash payment”. It has drowned the most heavenly ecstasies of religious fervour, of chivalrous enthusiasm, of philistine sentimentalism, in the icy water of egotistical calculation. It has resolved personal worth into exchange value, and in place of the numberless indefeasible chartered freedoms, has set up that single, unconscionable freedom — Free Trade. In one word, for exploitation, veiled by religious and political illusions, it has substituted naked, shameless, direct, brutal exploitation.
The bourgeoisie has stripped of its halo every occupation hitherto honoured and looked up to with reverent awe. It has converted the physician, the lawyer, the priest, the poet, the man of science, into its paid wage labourers.
The bourgeoisie has torn away from the family its sentimental veil, and has reduced the family relation to a mere money relation.
The bourgeoisie has disclosed how it came to pass that the brutal display of vigour in the Middle Ages, which reactionaries so much admire, found its fitting complement in the most slothful indolence. It has been the first to show what man’s activity can bring about. It has accomplished wonders far surpassing Egyptian pyramids, Roman aqueducts, and Gothic cathedrals; it has conducted expeditions that put in the shade all former Exoduses of nations and crusades.
The bourgeoisie cannot exist without constantly revolutionising the instruments of production, and thereby the relations of production, and with them the whole relations of society. Conservation of the old modes of production in unaltered form, was, on the contrary, the first condition of existence for all earlier industrial classes. Constant revolutionising of production, uninterrupted disturbance of all social conditions, everlasting uncertainty and agitation distinguish the bourgeois epoch from all earlier ones. All fixed, fast-frozen relations, with their train of ancient and venerable prejudices and opinions, are swept away, all new-formed ones become antiquated before they can ossify. All that is solid melts into air, all that is holy is profaned, and man is at last compelled to face with sober senses his real conditions of life, and his relations with his kind.
The need of a constantly expanding market for its products chases the bourgeoisie over the entire surface of the globe. It must nestle everywhere, settle everywhere, establish connexions everywhere.
The bourgeoisie has through its exploitation of the world market given a cosmopolitan character to production and consumption in every country. To the great chagrin of Reactionists, it has drawn from under the feet of industry the national ground on which it stood. All old-established national industries have been destroyed or are daily being destroyed. They are dislodged by new industries, whose introduction becomes a life and death question for all civilised nations, by industries that no longer work up indigenous raw material, but raw material drawn from the remotest zones; industries whose products are consumed, not only at home, but in every quarter of the globe. In place of the old wants, satisfied by the production of the country, we find new wants, requiring for their satisfaction the products of distant lands and climes. In place of the old local and national seclusion and self-sufficiency, we have intercourse in every direction, universal inter-dependence of nations. And as in material, so also in intellectual production. The intellectual creations of individual nations become common property. National one-sidedness and narrow-mindedness become more and more impossible, and from the numerous national and local literatures, there arises a world literature.
The bourgeoisie, by the rapid improvement of all instruments of production, by the immensely facilitated means of communication, draws all, even the most barbarian, nations into civilisation. The cheap prices of commodities are the heavy artillery with which it batters down all Chinese walls, with which it forces the barbarians’ intensely obstinate hatred of foreigners to capitulate. It compels all nations, on pain of extinction, to adopt the bourgeois mode of production; it compels them to introduce what it calls civilisation into their midst, i.e., to become bourgeois themselves. In one word, it creates a world after its own image.
The bourgeoisie has subjected the country to the rule of the towns. It has created enormous cities, has greatly increased the urban population as compared with the rural, and has thus rescued a considerable part of the population from the idiocy of rural life. Just as it has made the country dependent on the towns, so it has made barbarian and semi-barbarian countries dependent on the civilised ones, nations of peasants on nations of bourgeois, the East on the West.
The bourgeoisie keeps more and more doing away with the scattered state of the population, of the means of production, and of property. It has agglomerated population, centralised the means of production, and has concentrated property in a few hands. The necessary consequence of this was political centralisation. Independent, or but loosely connected provinces, with separate interests, laws, governments, and systems of taxation, became lumped together into one nation, with one government, one code of laws, one national class-interest, one frontier, and one customs-tariff.
The bourgeoisie, during its rule of scarce one hundred years, has created more massive and more colossal productive forces than have all preceding generations together. Subjection of Nature’s forces to man, machinery, application of chemistry to industry and agriculture, steam-navigation, railways, electric telegraphs, clearing of whole continents for cultivation, canalisation of rivers, whole populations conjured out of the ground — what earlier century had even a presentiment that such productive forces slumbered in the lap of social labour?
We see then: the means of production and of exchange, on whose foundation the bourgeoisie built itself up, were generated in feudal society. At a certain stage in the development of these means of production and of exchange, the conditions under which feudal society produced and exchanged, the feudal organisation of agriculture and manufacturing industry, in one word, the feudal relations of property became no longer compatible with the already developed productive forces; they became so many fetters. They had to be burst asunder; they were burst asunder.
Into their place stepped free competition, accompanied by a social and political constitution adapted in it, and the economic and political sway of the bourgeois class.”
The Communist Manifesto
See: here
What a panegyric in favour of the progressive “revolutionary” role of Capitalism. And in the “Grundrise” Marx goes further describing the “civilising Mission” of Capitalism in the way it is forced to continually expand the range of use-values sold to workers, to continually expand his horizons and culture.
But, then for you Marx is no doubt just another apologist for imperialism, a socialist who gets in the way of your nationalist ideology.
““I’m not aware of any real examples of emerging economies being combated by a combination of imperialist powers as you argue.”
This has to be some sort of joke, Germany was an up and coming imperial power and I think that led to some sort of conflict didn’t it. Infact Lenin’s writing is full of this antagonism.”
Surely, its you that is joking here isn’t it. First of all, we were discussing the period AFTER the end of Colonialism. Secondly, how on Earth can you describe Germany at the time of WWI as an emerging economy??????? In fact, during the period when Germany WAS an emerging economy in the latter part of the 19th century there was NO attempt to prevent its development by Britain. As Engels relates, in fact Germans who had worked for British companies usually merchant companies around the globe, utilised the contacts they made, in order to win orders for newly emerging German industry. During that period when the globe could still be divided up, there was a fairly peaceful development of these competing powers. By the time WWI erupts Germany is not only a developed economy, but probably more developed than Britain, certainly more dynamic, and with colonies of its own!!!!! The War in large part is not a War by Britain to prevent the development of Germany, but a War initiated by Germany in order to obtain for itself some of Britain and France’s colonies. I suggest you read some history as well as some economics.
"I acknowledge India and China are emerging powers and as I said we will have to see how this plays out.”
Yeah right, and what about Korea, Taiwan, Malaysia, Singapore, Brazil, and a host of other former colonies that are now not just developing, but developed economies ,and which for the last 30 years have themselves exported Capital, and exploited cheap labour in other economies?????
“That’s the exact point I was making, I said if you would bother to read it that such an evaluation would be a Bougoisie liberal one. And you say I distort your veiws!”
That’s because you do. Let’s examine this. You quoted my comment,
“Iran is a capitalist society run by the mullahs”, and then said,
“You call Iran capitalist and then in other writings say it’s medieval, come on Boffy, which is it.”
This shows clearly that you do not understand at all the basis of Marxist class analysis. You do not understand the basis of the class nature of the state as determined by the dominant economic and social relations in the society. If you did you could not make such a ridiculous statement that confuses the political regime within a society with its class nature. The method you adopt here of determining the class nature of a state by looking superficially at that superstructure not the base is precisely the method of bourgeois subjectivism. That is further demonstrated by your further comment,
“If Iran is capitalist and the USA is capitalist then it comes down to a bourgeoisie liberal evaluation of Islam v Secular consumerism/Christianity.”
Well, you can determine your politics on that basis if you like, I will stick with the objective Marxist method. Trotsky outlined that method perfectly in relation to Brazil, but, in fact, I think it could be applied more generally. If two imperialist powers are at war, this is a war about carving up some other part of the globe. Marxists can have no support for either side, but fight for a revolutionary overthrow of their own bourgeoisie. If an imperialist power launches a war of conquest against a non-imperialist power – in Trotsky’s example Britain against Brazil – then Marxists will support the non-imperialist power DESPITE its fascist government, though, of course, they will give no political support to that government. My method has nothing to do with your subjective analysis, but is the Marxist objective method, of analysing the class nature of the state, and the actual nature of the conflict. If Britain attacks Iran to overthrow its government. I will support Iran despite its government. I will give no political support to that government, and would tell workers in Iran why that Government will betray them, why it cannot lead them to victory, and why they have to rely on their own strength, that although they should offer to fight alongside the forces of that government they should maintain strict organisational and political independence, because the lessons of China in the 1920’s, of Spain in the 1930’s, and of many other such conflicts is that their own ruling class as a Capitalist class will see them as greater enemies than their fellow Capitalists, and will if they can turn their guns on the workers not the invaders.
“Then we’d have to have an argument about what is more progressive, women who wear veils or women who wear mini skirts.”
Well if that is the way you determine whether a society is progressive or not that is up to you.
““In proportion as the exploitation of one individual by another is put an end to, the exploitation of one nation by another will also be put an end to. In proportion as the antagonism between classes within the nation vanishes, the hostility of one nation to another will come to an end.”
The exploitation of one nation to another put to an end, Marx wants to abolish free trade, the reactionary!”
How is that so often you read, but fail to understand. I agree with Marx, we both want socialism in which not just FREE trade, but all “trade” will be put an end to. We both want to end Capitalism, but that didn’t stop Marx describing Capitalism is progressive. And, if you want to understand Marx’s view on Free Trade you should read his speech on that issue where he ends,
“Do not imagine, gentlemen, that in criticizing freedom of trade we have the least intention of defending the system of protection.
One may declare oneself an enemy of the constitutional regime without declaring oneself a friend of the ancient regime.
Moreover, the protectionist system is nothing but a means of establishing large-scale industry in any given country, that is to say, of making it dependent upon the world market, and from the moment that dependence upon the world market is established, there is already more or less dependence upon free trade. Besides this, the protective system helps to develop free trade competition within a country. Hence we see that in countries where the bourgeoisie is beginning to make itself felt as a class, in Germany for example, it makes great efforts to obtain protective duties. They serve the bourgeoisie as weapons against feudalism and absolute government, as a means for the concentration of its own powers and for the realization of free trade within the same country.
But, in general, the protective system of our day is conservative, while the free trade system is destructive. It breaks up old nationalities and pushes the antagonism of the proletariat and the bourgeoisie to the extreme point. In a word, the free trade system hastens the social revolution. It is in this revolutionary sense alone, gentlemen, that I vote in favour of free trade.”
See: On the Question of Free Trade
Oops, seems you are on the opposite side of the barricade to Marx and the rest of us Marxists yet again.
“Then why do you constantly compare Hitler to Hamas, you should be comparing Hitler to Britain and Israel. This shows your utter bias in the issue.”
Why do you have such difficulty with categories, why can you not distinguish between, states, nations, and political organisations and regimes? As a political regime Hamas is clerical-fascist, and is, therefore, comparable with the Nazis as a political regime. As a proto state Gaza or Palestine is comparable to Brazil in the example given by Trotsky above. In a conflict between the Israeli State and the Gazan proto-state, I am on the side of the Palestinians DESPITE the fact that the Palestinian State has a clerical-fascist government, whilst Israel has a bourgeois democratic government. I am so, for the reasons Trotsky gives, but also for the reasons Trotsky gives that support for the Palestinians does not entail me giving any kind of political support for HAMAS, any more than his support for Brazil entailed him giving support to Vargas, or his support for the Chinese against the Japanese Imperialists entailed giving political support for the Kuomintang.
Marxists in such circumstances tell the workers to rely on their own strength, to build their own fighting organisations, to offer a military alliance with the bourgeois nationalist forces, but to maintain not just a strict organisational and political separation from those forces, but to maintain their political critique of those forces, knowing as we do that those forces will turn their guns on the workers at the earliest opportunity. In the case of the clerical-fascists it is highly unlikely that they would agree to any such alliance, because they see socialists as their main enemy, not imperialism. Just look at the way they joined forces with US imperialism to fight Russia in Afghanistan where the Stalinists were attempting to establish a deformed workers state, and were doing such terrible things in the eyes of the clerical-fascists as proposing to educate women.
“You constantly compare the Hamas supporting Palestinians to Hitler and the BNP, you equate the BNP and Hitler with people suffering the most barbaric oppression and you accuse me of anti Semitism.”
This is just rambling and makes no logical or grammatical sense. Again you adopt a nationalistic position not a class position as best I can decipher what you are saying. Hamas do not support all Palestinians. Palestinians like any other people are divided into classes. As a socialist it is the Palestinian workers I am concerned with, and Hamas certainly do not support them, any more than their patrons the Iranian mullahs do. On the contrary they are the immediate enemies of those workers, along with Palestinian women who make up 50% of the population, LGBT Palestinians who make up more than 30% of the population, and so on.
“Jewish people are like everyone else, their characters and ideas etc are formed by the material conditions into which they were born, and they are no different from anyone else. They are capable of beauty, art, cruelty and barbarism as are Muslims, Catholics and anyone else for that matter.”
Yes, they are and yet you want to treat them differently from any other people. You want to deny them the right to their own state, and force them into a state they do not wish to belong to. You want in your own words to struggle against Jewish workers, something you do not call for in respect of any other group of workers, not even British workers whose state colonised half the globe, or US workers who’s state you seem to think currently colonises most of the globe! How else can we treat your special treatment of Jews other than vile anti-semitism.
“I said a struggle against the Israeli’s, I will not decide what form that takes, the Palestinians will, and it will be as a result of their oppression.”
You said Israeli workers, and it doesn’t matter whether you or the Palestinians decide the form that takes, for a Marxist a struggle against workers is a reactionary struggle they cannot support. The duty of Marxists is to support workers not struggle against them; it is to foster greater unity between workers as Lenin said, not to encourage division between them as you propose.
“Hamas were elected by the Palestinian people, your views necessarily paint them as genocidal lunatics and you call me racist.”
The fact that they were elected has nothing to do with defining their political programme, any more than the fact that Hitler was elected. I define them as genocidal reactionaries on the basis of their programme and actions.
“Your idea to prolong the agony of Palestinians is outright anti Muslim, you justify the mass killing of their children as your obnoxious quote proves.”
I do not propose to prolong the agony of Palestinians. On the contrary I propose a struggle to end it, by fighting immediately for the kind of measures that would relieve it, and provide Palestinians with basic democratic rights. It is you that seeks to prolong it, by encouraging them to continue “going over the top” like a latter day General Haig, in an unwinnable military struggle against far superior military might. The point is not to continue calling on young Palestinians to throw away their lives as you propose, but to change that balance of power, and that can only be done by a joint struggle of Jewish and Palestinian workers.
“You repeat the right wing BNP thinking person’s stereotypes about Muslims.”
Would you like to offer any evidence for this lie? No, of course you wouldn’t, because you are without principle or decency. Lost for arguments you resort to lies and insults.
“BNP supporters would applaud your distorted descriptions of them, the pathetic BNP, doomed to inevitable failure are stirring up a war against Muslims in the UK and it is one you will be sure to support as I can imagine their brand of genocidal, medievalist mania seeping into this country will fill you with dread. You will inevitably line up with the BNP to combat it, I will line up on the other side of the barricades.”
As I was a founder member of my local anti-racist organisation your comments are totally ridiculous. It is you that has said here that “maybe” the BNP could become progressive as a result of it leading strikes. Its you that has nationalist rather than socialist politics. Its you that supports clerical-fascists such as Hamas and Ahmedinejad as against the Palestinian and Iranian workers. But, opposing the BNP’s racism does not lead me as it seems to lead you, to accommodate to reactionary ideas within Islam either. In so far as political-Islam puts forward a reactionary anti-socialist program, it is the duty of socialists to oppose it, even as they fight alongside Muslims on the streets against the fascists. In so far as Muslim women or gays are oppressed by Muslim men, or heterosexuals the responsibility of a socialist is to strand with those women and gays.
“Your views would apologise for any atrocity committed against them,”
Again another obvious lie, for which you can offer no evidence. Have you no shame whatsoever?
“"The profound hypocrisy and inherent barbarism of bourgeois civilization lies unveiled before our eyes, turning from its home, where it assumes respectable forms, to the colonies, where it goes naked."
What on Earth are you talking about, and again you give no reference for your quote. The colonies went 50 years ago yet you still drone on about them as though they were present day reality. What world do you live in? Who denies that Capitalism is a barbarous system? But, the whole point of Marx’s analysis is that it is riddled with contradiction. Barbaric yet revolutionary and progressive. Creating desperate poverty for a minority, yet fulfilling a “civilising mission” for the majority of the working class. You seem to have no appreciation of the dialectic whatsoever, but then you are a nationalist reactionary not a Marxist.
“We have had over 100 years of capitalism, the most reckless economic system in history, since Marx, it’s time to stop fawning over it or apologising for it and start the job of getting rid of it.”
Yet according to Marx, the most revolutionary in history. Yes it is time to get rid of it, but I am with Marx. I want to get rid of it in favour of socialism, whereas you want to get rid of it in favour not of something better, not in favour of the future, but in favour of a return to medievalism. You don’t get rid of fascism by siding with the representatives of Capital in the way that you do, nor do you do it by proposing a struggle alongside those Capitalists against workers as you do. You do it by siding with the working class, by building workers unity within and across borders, and by struggling against the petit-bourgeois, reactionary ideas of people like you.
Ok couldn’t resist
I will leave the Israel Palestine debate alone as we are never going to agree on that.
If you are going to compare me with some of history’s most evil men could you at least choose one who was a self proclaimed Marxist, someone like Pol Pot for instance.
Anyway, I have a few questions for you.
Now I’m assuming that we both agree Marx wanted to see an end to Bourgeoisie control and replaced with proletariat control in his lifetime or at least in the near future, i.e. well before 2008.
In your analysis does this make Marx a reactionary considering all the “progress” produced by capitalism (promoted on your blog) since, all the people rescued from the idiocy of rural life, all the peoples that have benefited from “free” trade etc etc.
If it doesn’t how would the socialist governments Marx wanted to see in his time have responded to the rest of the world, would they have carried out this Capitalist imperialism? Would they have enforced it?
And considering the above at what point would any fight against capitalism, even one for socialism, stop being reactionary.
Did you regard Thatcher as progressive?
“Now I’m assuming that we both agree Marx wanted to see an end to Bourgeoisie control and replaced with proletariat control in his lifetime or at least in the near future, i.e. well before 2008.
In your analysis does this make Marx a reactionary considering all the “progress” produced by capitalism (promoted on your blog) since, all the people rescued from the idiocy of rural life, all the peoples that have benefited from “free” trade etc etc.”
This is a really silly question. Marx argued that Capitalism was perhaps the most revolutionary and progressive form of society to date. But, the whole point of the theory of Historical Materialism, and of its dialectical exposition is that what was once progressive, becomes at a certain point reactionary. From that point on from where the productive forces develop to the stage whereby some new mode of production then what was once progressive itself becomes reactionary a drag on further development. But, the whole point about historical materialism, indeed the very nature of the dialectic is that there are no absolutes. As Lenin put it, the dialectic means that “The truth is always concrete.” Capitalism is reactionary vis a vis, but it remains revolutionary and progressive vis a vis what went before i.e. feudalism, slave society and so on. And as Marx pointed out, “No Mode of production leaves the historical stage until such time as it has exhausted the potential for developing the productive forces.”
In the 19th Century Marx and Engels thought that socialism would follow hard on the heels of the bourgeois revolutions of 1848. They were wrong, and Engels himself later said that they could not have been anything other than wrong at the time, because nowhere in Europe at that time, other than England had the productive forces been developed sufficiently that the force needed to bring socialism about existed i.e. a large working class. By the end of the 19th Century that was no longer true for much of Europe and for the US, but it remained true for most of the rest of the world. There is no automatic transition to socialism, and although the Communists at the beginning of the 20th Century thought they saw in the First World War, and in the 1930’s Depression, the sign that Capitalism had indeed, become absolutely reactionary, that not only was it possible and desirable to develop the productive forces more effectively by socialism, but that Capitalism was at a stage whereby rather than developing the productive forces it was retarding them, they too were wrong. Socialism would undoubtedly develop the productive forces more effectively, but in its absence Capitalism has shown that it has many tricks up its sleeve yet. It is impossible to deny that Capitalism has massively advanced the productive forces of mankind in the last century, and in doing so has as Marx predicted it would lifted tens of millions out of poverty, and increasingly “civilised” the working classes of the West, and increasingly of the East too. Compared to a socialism we have yet to establish Capitalism is reactionary, compared to the alternatives it remains progressive.
And that was Marx and Engels attitude to the role of Colonialism. Subjectively, its methods were thoroughly deplorable – just as its methods for accumulating Capital had been in Europe – but the consequence of its actions in developing the means of production, and of creating a working class were progressive, because without those things socialism would be impossible. Trotsky applied the same method to the Soviet Invasion of Poland. The invasion he said was reactionary, because it strengthened the position of the Stalinist bureaucracy, and weakened the idea that socialism meant the self-mobilisation of the working class. But, despite that the consequences of the Stalinists actions were progressive, because they demolished the old ruling classes, and established new social relations.
Its not just me that has this view of Marx and Engels views. It is the established Marxist view. You might want to read this Marx and Engels on Colonialism
I was hoping to be able to provide a link to other works by Marx and Engels themselves on Colonialism that make the point even more decisively, but the relevant works do not appear to be available online. I would, however, suggest that you read the following works by Engels if you can find them. They are contained in a collection of Marx and Engels Basic Writings by Lewis Feuer.
“Socialist Imperialism in Java”, (letter to Kautsky February 1884)where Engels shows how “primitive communism in the modern world was reactionary
“Defence of Progressive Imperialism in Algeria”, (written for the Northern Star January 1848) where Engels says,
“Upon the whole it is, in our opinion, very fortunate that the Arabian Chief (Abd-el-Kader) has been taken. The struggle of the Bedouins was a hoeless one, and though the manner in which brutal soldiers, like Bugeaud, have carried on the war is highly blameable, the conquest of Algeria is an important and fortunate fact for the progress of civilisation. … And the conquest of Algeria has already forced he Beys of Tunis and Tripoli, and even the Emperor of Morocco, to enter upon he road of civilisation…. And if we may regret that the liberty of the Bedouins of the desert has been destroyed, we must remember that these same Bedouins were a nation of robbers, whose principal means of living consisted of making excursions either upon each other or upon the settled villagers, taking what they found, slaughtering all those who resisted, and selling the remaining prisoners as slaves. All these nations of free barbarians look very proud, noble and glorious from a distance, but only come near them, and you will find that they, as well as the more civilised nations are ruled by the lust of gain, and only employ ruder and more cruel means. And after all, the modern bourgeois, with civilisation, industry, order, and at least relative enlightenment following him, is preferable to the feudal lord or the marauding robber, with the barbarian state of society to which they belong.”
and “Socialist Colonial Policy” (Letter to Kautsky November 1882) where Engels talks about a victorious proletariat in Europe taking over the colonies in India and elsewhere and leading them rapidly towards independence. He says of India that it would probably undergo a revolution which would be accompanied by lots of bloodshed, but comments,“as the proletariat emancipating itself can conduct no colonial wars this would have to be allowed”.
"If it doesn’t how would the socialist governments Marx wanted to see in his time have responded to the rest of the world, would they have carried out this Capitalist imperialism? Would they have enforced it?"
Following on from that Engels answers the question you raise. He says,
“We shall have enough to do at home. Once Europe is organised, and North America, that will furnish such colossal power and such an example that the semi-civilised countries will follow in their wake of their own accord. Economic needs alone will be responsible for this. … One thing alone is certain: the victorious proletariat can force no blessings of any kind upon any foreign nation without undermining its own victory by so doing. Which, of course, by no means, excludes defensive wars of various kinds…”
In other words, just as Capitalism's low prices had been, as Marx put it, the battering ram that knocked down the Chinese Walls of barbarian nations, so the tremendous economic power of socialism would as it traded with these barbarian nations even more force them to develop, to seek the assistance of those socialist states, and to become socialist themselves. It would act as a powerful impetus to those within these states fighting their reactionary governments. And to the extent that these states sought to engage in piracy, sabotage or other acts against the socialist states then those states would “of course” engage in “defensive wars of various kinds”. Lenin made clear that he would have no compunction against waging such wars against the USSR’s neighbours where it was necessary for the interests of the working class. Indeed in 1920, when they thought they could promote the Polish Revolution they chased the Polish army back almost to Warsaw.
”And considering the above at what point would any fight against capitalism, even one for socialism, stop being reactionary.”
Do you mean stop being “progressive”? A fight against Capitalism that sought to reintroduce something from the past as opposed to seeking to replace it with socialism is reactionary. As Engels says above,
“after all, the modern bourgeois, with civilisation, industry, order, and at least relative enlightenment following him, is preferable to the feudal lord or the marauding robber, with the barbarian state of society to which they belong.”
"Did you regard Thatcher as progressive?"
Compared to what? As Lenin says, the truth is always concrete. Even Margaret Thatcher was progressive compared to say Attila the Hun, or even to Charles I. I consider Pol Pot was a feudalist. In a hypothetical war in which Pol Pot sought to overrun Britain, I would have unreservedly been for his defeat even if that meant an alliance with Thatcher, because a return to feudalism would have been reactionary. This is not even the same as an inter-imperialist war where the mode of production remains the same, but the political regime changes. This would be a war to return to a previous mode of production. It would be unreservedly reactionary, and in those conditions Marxists would side with Capitalism as against feudalism. But, as the representative of Capital in an age where socialism is possible, where the working class is the revolutionary class, then Thatcher was unquestionably a reactionary.
Stop thinking formalistically, and subjectively in terms of absolutes, begin to think dialectically in relative terms, and you may begin to understand the basic method of Marxism. Then you might be able to make sense, and navigate the complex world around you.
Well, for a silly question, you gave one hell of an answer, though the patronising tone was a little grating.
Now forgive me if I'm not thinking dialectically but with Thatcher I should have put it into the context of turning the Uk from a manufacturing economy and shipping manufacturing jobs to the developing world, thus raising their "living standards" etc etc.
Generally, when companies ship their jobs to the developing world, eg BMW in Vietnam, to increase profits, are the workers fighting this reactionary?
Glad you thought it was on hell of an answer. Sorry you thought the tone was patronising, but I could say the same about the tone of your questions.
On Thatcher I think I gave the answer previously.
Are workers acting in a reactionary manner by resisting the transfer of jobs to a less developed economy? It depends on what basis they do so. The traditional Marxist response has been not to oppose such investment overseas by an employer, which would be objectively progressive in stimulating the development of a working class there, but to oppose any reduction of jobs by the employer that might result, arguing instead for a reduction in working hours etc.
The argument is just a variant of the argument over Import Controls, which in itself is a variant of the argument over Immigration Controls. In the 1970's the Reformist left and their hangers on in the Stalinist Party developed the Alternative Economic Strategy designed to advise the Capitalists how to run their economy. One of the central planks was the demand for "Import Controls" to protect "British" workers jobs from the threat of cheap "foreign" imports.
Marxists pointed out at the time that this demand and the argument that backed it up was thoroughly reactionary. It implied that the cause of British workers problems was not British Capitalism, but foreign workers who were doing them out of jobs, by their cheap labour. As was pointed out at the time this argument was no different than that put forward by the national Front and other Nationalist organisations who argued that British workers were losing their jobs because of the immigration of "foreign" workers.
It is a thoroughly reactionary and nationalist position that seeks to locate the problem of British workers with foreign workers not with British bosses.
For my part, my argument would be that BMW could invest in Vietnam or wherever they wished, but that the workers here should take over the plant and equipment and run it as a Workers Co-operative.
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