Why are the BBC, and Sky refusing to screen the Appeal by the Disasters Emergency Committee for Gaza’s benighted people suffering under the weight of the huge and terrible onslaught of the Israeli war machine? For some, such as “BrianClough” whose simplistic notions, and reactionary nationalist politics were spewed forth over recent days in our debate over Gaza and Israel See: Here the answer is simple; “The bourgeois media is a tool of imperialism”. But, clearly not that simple, because other parts of that bourgeois media ARE putting out the Appeal. Worse still for Cluffy’s argument, Britain’s Imperialist Government, has called on the BBC to show the Appeal!!!
So why is the BBC not doing so, in particular? Good question. The answer the BBC gives is that it wants to defend its “impartiality”. Well, possibly. But then, one would have to agree with Cluffy to this extent, the bourgeois media, including the BBC IS NOT impartial. The BBC was not impartial over its coverage of the Miners Strike, or pretty much any other strike. There is plenty of evidence that the BBC select journalists on the basis of them having generally some conformity with bourgeois norms. But, the mechanisms by which the bourgeois state, and its ideological arms work – including the media, but this applies to Education and other parts of the ideological state apparatus – is far more complex, far more subtle than Cluffy’s vulgar presentation would suggest.
The strength of bourgeois ideology does rest on the idea not just of pluralism, but of impartiality and fairness. Pluralism in that it gives the superficial impression that a range of alternative views struggle for acceptance – without of course, making clear that these plurality of views are a plurality of BOURGEOIS views representing different interests of different sections of the ruling class, and of its executive within the bourgeois state – whose supreme representation is the electoral competition between ideologically, Bourgeois Parties, including those that claim to represent workers interests, and, for whose success, on which, the votes and support of workers they rely. Impartial, in the way it is implied these contending views are presented equally, and, therefore, the success of any of which is based on its merits, just as workers treat equally with employers in the determination of wages.
In order for this façade to be maintained the dissemination of bourgeois ideas cannot be undertaken crudely in the way that Cluffy supposes. It does require a DEGREE of impartiality, it does require dissenting voices, especially when those dissenting voices represent interests within the ruling class itself. Given the experience of the BBC over the Iraq War, and the hammering it took for not being impartial, its understandable that sections of the BBC bureaucracy should fight shy. Of course, sections of the international capitalist class do not share the approach of the British Government over the recent slaughter of Palestinians by Israel. In the US, the State has not condemned Israel for its actions, reserving the bulk of its criticism for Hamas. It is, perhaps then no coincidence that Sky, part of the Murdoch Newscorp Empire, derives a considerable amount of revenue from its US operations in all forms of media, and indeed, the BBC in its growing commercial operations also derives a considerable amount of revenue from such US activities. That cannot be said of most of the other TV channels in Britain, or of the newspapers that have carried the Appeal.
But, even that may be too deterministic and vulgar an understanding of the motives. The BBC, which has carried similar appeals in the past in conflict situations, last year commissioned a report, which concluded that it did risk undermining its impartiality, and let’s remember that in its daily operations it is BBC reporters that have to live with the consequence of being seen to be taking one side or another. No one, would, of course, want to besmirch the humanitarian intentions of aid workers, or the work that they do. But, the very nature of such aid work means that in order for it to be distributed, it is those in authority who have to be dealt with, and often there is little way of controlling what these authorities do with it. There have been many instances of such aid being used by ruthless governments – Zimbabwe was a high profile recent case, though Cluffy no doubt thinks that Mugabe is a valiant anti-colonial freedom fighter – to blackmail their populations into conformity, and many more of such regimes, or organisations using aid to feed their troops and supporters rather than those for whom the aid was directed.
In addition, we have the experience of the “Stockholm Syndrome”, of the way that captives can come through their situation to form a bond with their captors. There is nothing more understandable in the world than that aid workers in the field, often suffering alongside the civilian population in which they are embedded, come to share the anguish of those with whom they are personally tied, and to eschew the same resentment of those seen as immediately the cause of that situation. It is inevitable that the two things become mixed up, and in a situation like Gaza it would be all too easy for Hamas to take credit for the relief brought to it, and to use such relief in the ways other unscrupulous organisations and governments have done in the past.
In fact, this highlights both the problem, and the solution. The fact is that aid, has always been a powerful ideological and political tool. It was used on a grand scale during the Cold War by both sides to win friends and influence people. So long as the provision of aid is left in the hands of the bourgeoisie, of its state institutions, or of private bourgeois organisations – some of which as we have seen recently have their own religious agendas too – then such situations will arise, and aid will be utilised to promote the interests of one or other section of the bourgeoisie. As with so many other areas of life discussed here recently, for example, over the question of nationalisation by the bourgeois state, Marxists cannot call on that State to act impartially. That would be like asking the lion to lie down with the lamb. Workers have to rely on their own self-activity and their own organisation to resolve these problems, and we should not be afraid to do so as impartially as do the bosses.
We need to develop workers aid organisations for the many instances where such aid is required around the world. After all, in the same way that millions of workers hand over their savings and pension funds to the bouregoisie to use on its own behalf and aginst workers interests, it is often millions of workers who hand over their hard earned savings to the bourgeoisie to distribute, much of which goes to finance well paid jobs for bourgeois bureaucrats in this multiplicity of charitable organisations. Workers would need just one such Charity, one set of bureaucrats paid the average workers wage, and under the constant democratic control of the labour movement, through its established channels. Such aid could be directed to where it is needed, to the poorest in these societies, to the workers and peasants, and unemployed, and more importantly could be directed to those in these societies who are working to provide the real solutions to the problems, to those that are building Trade Unions, Workers Parties and Co-operatives, and other forms of workers and peasants organisation. The most common saying within these charitable circles is “Give a man a fish and he will eat today. Teach a man to fish and he will eat everyday.” It is, of course, a thoroughly bourgeois notion. You can teach a man to fish, but without the means of production, the fishing rod or nets, without access to the sea or river, that skill is useless. And in modern society, indeed in the society that has existed for the last 200 years, production is not about individual effort such as that, but about co-operative effort by many workers to produce the basics let alone the comforts of life. Teach a man to fish, and he may end up fishing for some Capitalist who does own the nets or the river, and might eat only to the extent that he can win a decent wage from that employer.
The solution is not in that direction – indeed its often patronising to suggest that people who have lived by rivers, or lived off the land for centuries and even thousands of years don’t know how to farm or fish – but, in the assistance for such workers and peasants to develop solidaristic and co-operative organisations to further their collective needs, and collective interests. In the main bourgeois organisations will not do that, precisely because it will be argued that to do so would be “partial”, would be “political”. But, it is precisely, partial and political solutions that workers and peasants in such situations require. It is effective Trade Unions to at least defend wages at the subsistence level as the precondition for them being raised higher, it is Workers Parties that can fight on the political plane for workers interests, it is Co-operatives that can take out of the hands of Capital immediately important aspects of the basic necessities of life of ordinary workers and peasants. At best, these bourgeois organisations might promote the idea of producers co-operatives similar to those of small farmers in Europe, but such Co-operatives are – whilst in some ways progressive – a far cry from what Marxists see as the type of Co-operative that needs to be built, a co-operative that is not just a business enterprise, but is an integral part of the class struggle, a vehicle that supports workers in struggle, that sets out to change the balance of forces and which exists not just as some isolated bastion of the workers, but which forges ever closer ties with other co-operatives not just on a national, but on an international scale.
As Karl Marx put it more than 150 years ago the workers problems cannot be resolved by appeals by or to the bourgeoisie, but by the workers themselves. In an age of globalisation the simple solution he put forward then resounds now.
“Workers of the World Unite.”
Dear truth searchers,
ReplyDeleteFirstly, I'am no nationalist, I have never owned a flag in my life and see where I was born as an accident of birth and nothing to proud of. This is typical of Boffy twsisting and warping the ideas of his oppenents.
Anyway onto the issue in hand,
The mass media is in the hands of the ruling class, look who owns it. Its capitalists, not workers. Now this usually means that most stories have some commercial angle, i.e. to sell newspapers and make money but there is an underlying bourgeoisie philosophy at work in them all, albeit covering the entire range of bourgeoisie thought. For you to make the statement, “In the full glare of the media”, negates this reality, it’s a full glare filtered through bourgeoisie lenses.
This is the ONLY point I was trying to make.
On Israel/Palestine
Because Boffy lives in a parrallel universe where the joint Israeli and Palestinian worker struggle is just around the corner and that promoting this is the "solution" to the problem, he de facto supports Israel. His policies are nothing but the support of the racist oppressive Israeli state.
Cluffy,
ReplyDeleteYour politics are now going from the thoroughly reactionary to the utterly ridiculous. Having said,
"This is typical of Boffy twsisting and warping the ideas of his oppenents.", you conclude by accusing me of supporting Israel. How any one could read this blog and come to that conclusion God only knows, or in your case we should say Allah only knows, because your politics are clearly those of a reactionary political Islamist not those of a socialist.
Was it supporting Israel when I described the Palestinians as a
"benighted people suffering under the weight of the huge and terrible onslaught of the Israeli war machine," .
In what way does this comment support Israel?
Was it perhaps supporting Israel when I described the recent events as the,
"recent slaughter of Palestinians by Israel."
Was it supporting Israel to suggest that instead of workers giving money to bouregois charities they should establish a Workers Aid Fund to direct financial and humanitarian aid to the Palestinians so that it could be used to support those in most need, and to support Palestinian workers and their organisaitons?
Was it perhaps supporting Israel when I suggested in our previous discussion, and as I have argued elsewhere that workers need to develop a modern equivalent of the International Brigade that can come to the assistance of workers around the world facing violent oppression? Or that I stated that on principle I would even propose a military alliance with Hamas by such a workers militia to defend Palestinian workers?
How Cluffy, please tell us is any of that remotely supportive of Israel? Of course, to any rational person it is not, but Cluffy clearly is not rational jis mind is clouded by the medieval mysticism of clerical-fascism that he has tied his wagon to, and like all such mysticism it finds rationality an anethema. Cluffy even, disdains such rationalism within Marxism preferring an appeal to emotion.
And on that basis, of course, in Cluffy's mind anyone who does not join in him in abandoning class politics and selling his sould to the political Islamists is a supporter of Israel. Like all religionists he believes there is only one true God, and all others are merely Satan in disguise. For Cluffy, Hamas is God, and anyone that does not bow down before him is a follower of Satan (Israel). Or to put it in the words of another such reactionary - George Bush - "You are either with us or against us." Well, I'm with the Palestinians and against the reactionary politics of Cluffy and his mentors in Hamas.
And the reactionary politics of Cluffy are demonstrated when he says, "Because Boffy lives in a parrallel universe where the joint Israeli and Palestinian worker is just around the corner".. He shows despite his protestations at the beginning of his post that he is not a nationalist that that is precisely what he is. The whole basis of socialism let alone Marxism is the principle of workers unity and solidarity. Yet Cluffy argues that to suggest this is to be in a parallel universe. That is the voice of a nationalist not a socialist,a nd certianly not a Marxist, whose mantra is "Workers of the World Unite!".
Cluffy's argument is exactly that put forward by the nationalist socialists at the beginning of the twentieth century in the Second International. They like Cluffy beleived that you had to be in a parallel universe to beleive that workers unity across borders was right around the corner. They like Cluffy argued that because that was a fantasy it was necessary not to seek such unity but to make common cause on a nationalist programme with your own bourgeoisie. They like Cluffy sent workers to a mindless slaughter to kill their fellow workers. They like Cluffy were traitors to their class putting nationalism above socialism.
Cluffy bemoans that I picked him up about his arguments in relation to the media, but he doesn't answer the substantive points I make about those arguments. Those points come down to this. Cluffy begins with a fact that all Marxists woud accept that the media is a tool of the bourgeoisie, but as with all his politics, he applies this so crudely as to turn that fact into its opposite.
He objected to my statement about "in the full glare of media publicity", referring to the Israeli shelling of a school in Gaza. His objection that the media is a bouregois media could have only one meaning. That bouregois media would not show something which was detrimental to Israel. The crudity of that statement is obvious. The BBC and other media DID show the aftermath of that attack! The BBC and other media DID carry extensive coverage and discussion of the fact that Israel was illegally using phosphour bombs in civilian areas. The BBC and other media DID give extensive coverage to those representatives of the UN that were describing Israeli atrocities being carried out in Gaza. Just as during the Vietnam War the media DID provide coverage of US atrocities.
This terrible crudity of Cluffy's politics which contradicts every workers experience of daily life can only make socialists look stupid. Worse, workers will say if you tell me that the bouregois media will not show things like this, but then I see that they do, then its clear to me that you are lying, and if you lie to me about something so obviously false as this, then I can only assume that you are lying to me about most other things.
Its because of people like Cluffy and their crude politics that workers DO have such little faith in socialists.
Having read many of your articles I don't see a Marxist tradition but more an amalgamation of Marx and Bernstein.
ReplyDeleteAnyway,
I will repeat for the last time, I was not saying the media only show items that flatter Israel, I was just commenting that the phrase "In the full glare of the media" was inaccurate. Simple as that. I'm sure some of the media, in Turkey for instance, will get this bias the other way round.
Also, workers DO see the bias in the media, you only have to see the number of complaints that have poured into the BBC. Again Boffy apologises for the ruling class.
All I say is that your strategy by default supports Israel whether you see it or not.
You pointed out that if a "solution" was imposed on the Israeli's then this would impinge on your joint struggle idea but you don't say that the conditions imposed on the Palestinians will have any affect on your idea.
The reality of the situation as I see it is that the inequality in the relationship between the two sides makes it impossible to see the solution you want. By the time your idea comes to futition there won't be any Palestinians left to struggle with or for. This doesn't mean that I don't support worker unity across borders, I do, but I recognise when circumstances make this impossible and therefore seek to change these circumstances.
Now we've argued this till we are blue in the face and are going round in circles.
Meanwhile Capitalism is unravelling all around us, unrest around the world is spreading.
Current events are bringing up some important issues that are relevant to the debate we have been having, particularly the BNP thread.
Currently British workers are striking over jobs going to foreigh workers, there is a battle over this dispute between left and right.
What would your strategy be in relation to these events?
(Mine would be to support the workers but divert them towards a struggle against global capitalism and not against foreign workers)
“Having read many of your articles I don't see a Marxist tradition but more an amalgamation of Marx and Bernstein.”
ReplyDeleteAgain you make a statement without any argument to support it. In other words you resort to insults not argument.
”I will repeat for the last time, I was not saying the media only show items that flatter Israel, I was just commenting that the phrase "In the full glare of the media" was inaccurate.”
And I repeat in what way was it inaccurate. The meaning of your statement was clear “the media is a tool of the bourgeoisie they won’t show things detrimental to Israel”. You make that even clearer here when you say,
“Simple as that. I'm sure some of the media, in Turkey for instance, will get this bias the other way round.”
In other words again just a crude argument the bourgeois media in one country will only show things which directly further its interests, and will not show things which directly contradict its interests. But, the crudity and fallacy of this argument is obvious. The BBC did show the effects of the Israeli attacks including on the school, did discuss and show at length the Israeli use of white phosphorous. Moreover, it is the British Government that has called on the BBC to show the Appeal.
”Also, workers DO see the bias in the media, you only have to see the number of complaints that have poured into the BBC.”
Of course, they do because they are not stupid. They know that the bourgeois media is biased, though I think relying on a few thousand calls to the BBC, probably many of which are from activists, is not a sound basis of argumentation. There is a difference, as I pointed out in my previous reply, between the fundamental truth accepted by Marxists, and recognised by workers that the media is biased, and your crude version of that in which nothing that is detrimental to the interests of that class will be shown or printed!
“Again Boffy apologises for the ruling class.”
How is stating that the bourgeois media is a tool of the ruling class, me apologising for that class for God’s sake. Once again we see your method in action either we agree entirely with your perspective or we are by default agents of the Devil!!!!
”All I say is that your strategy by default supports Israel whether you see it or not.”
Yes, you keep saying that like you keep saying lots of other things without providing any argument to back your insults. I asked you several questions about my post which supported the Palestinians, and requested you tell us how those specific demands in support of the Palestinians could by any reasonable person be taken as me supporting Israel. You have yet again conspicuously failed to answer any of those questions. That shows how weak your argument is and the extent to which it amounts to nothing more than a series of insults.
”You pointed out that if a "solution" was imposed on the Israeli's then this would impinge on your joint struggle idea”
Actually, what I said was that if a solution were imposed on the Jewish people then this would simply replace the oppression suffered by the Palestinians with an equally reactionary oppression of Jews. I am not in favour of arguing for a solution of oppression of one people that requires the oppression of another. As a socialist I am in favour of a solution that deals with the oppression of both. As the people who are here and now suffering oppression it is our duty to support the Palestinians, and to oppose that oppression. I do. There are demands that can be raised immediately to deal with that oppression that do not require the overthrow of the State of Israel, a requirement that in any case is not in the capability of either you, me or the Palestinian people. I support those demands to immediately relieve he suffering of Palestinians whereas your solutions would not only NOT provide any immediate solution to that suffering it would make it worse, and would even were it to succeed, which no rational person can believe it would, would simply replacee the suffering of one people with the suffering of another.
At the end of your post you refer to the current strikes, but if we were to take the logic of your argument here we would indeed end up arguing that the Italian and Portuguese workers should be thrown out in order to relieve the suffering of the unemployed British workers. To use the logic you use here, we would have to say that opposing a solution that transfers that suffering to those Italian workers is to side with them against British workers!!!!
“but you don't say that the conditions imposed on the Palestinians will have any affect on your idea.”
Those conditions already exist I didn’t raise the demands which brought them about. Your demands would do that in respect of Jews. Our task is to deal with what exists not to raise demands which would lead to another form of oppression, which we would then have to raise another set of demands to deal with!
“The reality of the situation as I see it is that the inequality in the relationship between the two sides makes it impossible to see the solution you want. By the time your idea comes to fruition there won't be any Palestinians left to struggle with or for.”
Nonsense. The Palestinians have been around for a long time, and will continue to be so. However, terrible the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians their policy is clearly not one of genocide. Indeed, the Arab population of Israel itself is rising faster than the Jewish population. The demands I raise could be fought for and won fairly quickly. Certainly, they could be won much more quickly than your demand for the Jewish State to be overthrown and a Palestinian State to be erected in its place, and precisely for the reason you state here, the overwhelming power of that State.
“This doesn't mean that I don't support worker unity across borders, I do, but I recognise when circumstances make this impossible and therefore seek to change these circumstances.”
But clearly, such unity between Palestinian and Jewish workers is NOT impossible. There are many Jewish socialists who seek to build such unity. There are many Israeli Jews who have protested about Israel’s actions in Gaza, and who seek a peaceful solution. Unfortunately, many of these organised in groups such as Peace Now, are pacifists and liberals rather than working class socialists, but that large number of Israeli Jews that take this approach shows that your argument is false. You don’t want to see the possibility of such joint working class struggle, because your view is determined by your support for Hamas.
”Currently British workers are striking over jobs going to foreign workers, there is a battle over this dispute between left and right.
What would your strategy be in relation to these events?
(Mine would be to support the workers but divert them towards a struggle against global capitalism and not against foreign workers)”
Unlike most of the left, which has so far been silent in its press over this, probably because it has problems with the issue, I have already posted my views on the situation. See: Oil On Troubled waters
Yes, socialists should support the strikes. If I worked there I would be on strike, I would not cross picket lines, I would make collections for the strikers and so on. This is a strike of workers fighting against the consequences of a global labour market, which is the inevitable reality of global capitalism. But, I would as I have in my blog be at the same time arguing with workers, putting out leaflets etc. saying that although I would be the best supporter of the strike as a worker or militant in the area, the demands raised by the strike are misguided and reactionary. As I said in my blog Total is a Fr4ench Company, what if it provided “French Jobs for French Workers” upping sticks and moving its operation to France causing thousands of British jobs to be lost.
But, what does your “struggle against global capitalism mean”? How are these workers practically to do that. In reality it means throw over global capitalism as the solution to your immediate problem, and that isn’t on the cards is it? So its no solution to these workers immediate problem. That is why its necessary to argue against the willingness of workers over recent years to sell jobs for redundancy pay, why its necessary to argue for a sliding scale of hours to share out work with no loss of pay, but its also why we need workers to use their resources to establish Co-operative enterprises to give work to these unemployed workers, and for them to join together with local Communities etc. as set out in my blog.
I mention Bernstein because you share with him the same deluded faith in co-operatives as being able to transform the realities of the world capitalist economy and thus like him, you turn away from the real movement at every turn.
ReplyDeleteYou tend to blame the Stalinists for all that has gone wrong with the Labour movement but I would argue the victory of the reformist, cowardly Bernstein tendency has had a more disastrous affect. What is New Labour if not it’s inevitable conclusion?
Anyway, here are some comments from Rosa Luxembourg which unmask the idiocy of your co-operative vision,
“But in capitalist economy exchanges dominate production. As a result of competition, the complete domination of the process of production by the interests of capital - that is, pitiless exploitation - becomes a condition for the survival of each enterprise. The domination of capital over the process of production expresses itself in the following ways. Labor is intensified. The work day is lengthened or shortened, according to the situation of the market. And, depending on the requirements of the market, labor is either employed or thrown back into the street. In other words, use is made of all methods that enable an enterprise to stand up against its competitors in the market. The workers forming a co-operative in the field of production are thus faced with the contradictory necessity of governing themselves with the utmost absolutism. They are obliged to take toward themselves the role of capitalist entrepreneur - a contradiction that accounts for the usual failure of production co-operatives which either become pure capitalist enterprises or, if the workers' interests continue to predominate, end by dissolving.
Bernstein has himself taken note of these facts. But it is evident that he has not understood them. For, together with Mrs. Potter-Webb, he explains the failure of production co-operatives in England by their lack of "discipline." But what is so superficially and flatly called here "discipline" is nothing else than the natural absolutist regime of capitalism, which it is plain, the workers cannot successfully use against themselves.”
Re the media, I guess the BBC as the state broadcaster is probably marginally more bias than other media outlets as commercial considerations are not as acute, unless like Fox news they want tofill the maniac right wing market. The average BBC presenter is not of working class origin and the majority of the coverage is biased, albeit in a subtle form.
Hopefully the outcry from the workers over the atrocities in Gaza, which you were quick to apologise for (See previous quote), will make the BBC slightly more "independent" (But I doubt it)
“I mention Bernstein because you share with him the same deluded faith in co-operatives as being able to transform the realities of the world capitalist economy and thus like him, you turn away from the real movement at every turn.”
ReplyDeleteWhat utter bollocks.
1. Bernstein actually, did not argue for Co-operatives as a solution. Bernstein represented that Revisionist trend in the SPD, which basing itself on the electoral successes of the Party, and on the Lassallean statist ideology that the SDP inherited, looked instead to a gradual transformation from above, from the State. He was not hostile to Co-operatives, but they were certainly not central to his ideas.
2. If faith in Co-operatives is deluded then it means that Marx and Engels were deluded too, because my argument is identical to theirs as I will show in an upcoming piece.
3. I do not suggest that Co-operatives can “transform the realities of the world capitalist economy”, and have never argued that they can. I have argued as Marx and Engels did that they can by transforming economic and social relations, by showing workers in practice that they CAN manage the means of production themselves, both link into the class struggle, and form the necessary material basis for transforming workers consciousness. Unlike, the Utopian Socialists, or the reformists I have never suggested that Co-operatives could anything but, a means to an end, never suggested that as such they can be separated from the class struggle, not that both the bourgeoisie will palce obstacles in their way, nor that ultimately the working class will have to carry through a political revolution to establish its control.
In other words there is no similarity whatsoever, between me and Bernstein.
4. Can you give just ONE example, of where your allegation, “you turn away from the real movement at every turn” is true. Its me that in the question of Palestine bases my position on class struggle. Its you that turns away from class struggle and places your faith in the workers enemies of HAMAS!!!
5. Again your politics comes down not to rational argument, but of unsubstantiated insults.
”You tend to blame the Stalinists for all that has gone wrong with the Labour movement but I would argue the victory of the reformist, cowardly Bernstein tendency has had a more disastrous affect. What is New Labour if not it’s inevitable conclusion?”
Ah, your true colours come out at last. A Tankie! No wonder your politics are so crude, no wonder you resort to insult in place of argument. The shade of Uncle Joe peeps out.
1. I don’t blame the Stalinists for everything that is wrong with the Labour Movement. Read my stuff, I blame Marxists for the state of the Labour movement, because Marxists abandoned Marx, and went down either the road of Kautsky – remember in fact that Bernstein was DEFEATED by Kautsky and his followers – or of Lenin. Both roads were dominated by a Lassallean statist notion of socialism, as opposed to Marx’s bottom-up conception based on the self-activity of the working class. Lenin’s position was wrong but understandable given the historical conditions. Leninists since have continued the error and compounded it, whereas, I believe that Lenin himself would have corrected it by applying the Marxist method in the context of changed circumstances. It has led, precisely, to the majority of Marxists, “turn(ing) away from the real movement at every turn.” Instead, in the case of the Stalinists – to the extent that they could in any sense that doesn’t insult decency be called Marxists – they have looked to other class forces, in various Popular Fronts, to supposedly progressive Faith groups and so on – in which case we can perfectly well understand your devotion to the clerical-fascists of HAMAS. In the case of the Trotskyists, they have increasingly inhabited a surreal world of their own, in which they fantasise about revolutions just around the corner like some kind of replay of 1917, and by which they maintain a romantic vision of the working class, pure and revolutionary only held back by a crisis of leadership, and so really do shy away from the real working class that fails to live up to this vision, contenting themselves to simply recruit new blood to their organisations to replace that spilt, living their political life in only the most rarefied atmosphere of political discussion either amongst themselves or in Gladiatorial combat with their peers at union branch meetings and other such forums.
2. The leaders of the Second International betrayed the Labour Movement in 1914, because they had a duty to stand against the tide of nationalism building within the workers movement ahead of the War. But, its ridiculous to blame those leaders for the millions of workers who died. They should have stood against the stream, but the workers would probably still have signed up for the slaughter. And the position of the Bolshevik representatives in the Duma was actually no different than the position of the Mensheviks. Stalin’s position in February 1917 was exactly that of the Mensheviks and SR’s. Lenin was fuming at him and Kamenev.
Yes, Blair and other reformist are the descendants of those reformists, but the reality of Stalinism is that after the debacle of the lunacy of the Third Period, Stalinism adopted those same reformist positions. In fact, Stalin, Kamenev, and Zinoviev never gave up the reformist and nationalist politics they held in 1917, they only refracted them through various zig zags of tactics.
And whatever, blame we might rightly heap upon Blair for the death and destruction in Iraq, it is as nothing compared with the death and destruction that Stalinism has inflicted upon the working class, from the millions put to death by Stalin in Russia, the millions starved and murdered by Mao in China and so on. That is without taking account the tens of thousands of Communists that were murdered as a result of Stalin’s Popular Front politics in China in the 1920’s, telling them to submit to the Kuomintang, in the same way that you tell workers to submit to HAMAS, now; the millions who died because of the lunacy of the Third Period that allowed Hitler to come to power prior to Stalin forming a pact with him; the tens of thousands who died in the Spanish Civil War both because they were murdered by the Stalinists themselves, or because of the Popular Front politics which delivered them up to be murder by the Stalinists bourgeois allies – again as you would deliver Palestinian workers up to be murdered by your bourgeois allies in HAMAS.
And whatever, betrayals the reformists have committed against the working class, nothing compares in its treachery, its brutality or its effect on setting back the good name of socialism with workers, with the sending in of tanks to murder workers in East Germany, in Hungary, and in Czechoslovakia, by your old friend Uncle Joe and his successors.
3. If these are your role models no wonder you line up with the anti-working class, reactionary murdering bastards of clerical-fascism, no wonder you never told us whether you think Mugabe is one of your heroes of anti-colonial struggle at the moment.
On Rosa Luxemburg. Oh how many times are the words of poor Rosa used by those whom she would have despised.
Taken as a whole the argument that Rosa puts forward here is, of course, correct. But, if we take the argument on face value then we would also have to say that the Russian revolution was a mistake and any such similar revolution in a single country would be a mistake. Why, because so long as a Capitalist world market survives, all of he arguments raised by Rosa here would apply to that Workers State, which would be nothing more than one big Co-operative enterprise trying to survive in a sea of world capitalist competition! And, of course in practice that was true about the USSR. It is precisely why Lenin argued that the Russian workers needed to be well disciplined in production, why Soviet enterprises had to be more efficient than the Capitalist enterprises with which they were competing, it is why Lenin linked up with Armand Hammer of Occidental Petroleum and other western Capitalists to try to get them to invest in Russia, not only to provide much needed technology and goods, but also in order to provide the competitive whip needed to spur on Soviet industry and to be a training ground for Soviet Managers, technicians and workers. It is precisely why the Stalinist policy of “Socialism in One Country”, is reactionary.
But, of course, that was not Lenin’s programme was it. Lenin’s programme was that the Soviet Union would act as an example to workers elsewhere, the natural advantages of Co-operative industry over privately owned Capitalist industry would give them some means of overcoming the problems they faced, and by using the material foundations of the USSR, they could support workers elsewhere as part of a global class struggle.
In other words, precisely the programme and strategy that Marx outlines in his argument in favour of the development of Co-operatives under Capitalism, an argument still put forward by Engels in Bernstein’s time. It is the argument I put forward today, and indeed put forward in places by Lenin too. But, my forthcoming article will demolish these arguments more fully, so I’ll leave that there.
“Re the media, I guess the BBC as the state broadcaster is probably marginally more bias than other media outlets as commercial considerations are not as acute,”
You still haven’t explained how your crude theory explains the fact that the BBC DID show the consequences of the Israeli attacks on Gaza, nor why the Government has supported the Appeal, and yet the BBC, which you now tell us is “more” biased has not complied!!!
“unless like Fox news they want to fill the maniac right wing market. The average BBC presenter is not of working class origin and the majority of the coverage is biased, albeit in a subtle form.”
Of course, that is true and I have made that point throughout. But, that does not square with your original crude argument that NOTHING detrimental to imperialism, or here Israel would be shown by such media.
”Hopefully the outcry from the workers over the atrocities in Gaza, which you were quick to apologise for (See previous quote), will make the BBC slightly more "independent" (But I doubt it)”
Again you resort to unsubstantiated insults and allegations. WHERE did I apologise for the Israeli atrocities? I asked you a couple of posts back a series of questions relating to statements I had made, requesting that you answer how any of these statements could by any sane person be read as supporting Israel. Again you have failed to answer any of those questions, but in true Stalinist style you simply respond by stacking one lie upon another.
Ok, maybe I have not fully understood your views on co-operatives. I will wait for your article to make comments.
ReplyDeleteFirstly, I didn't tell anyone to join or submit to Hamas, the oppressed Palestinians decided that for themselves.
The BBC broadly favours Israel in it's broadcasting in my judgement and reflects the establishmnet interests, would you dispute this?
It didn't take the BBC to tell us about the atrocities, there were people on the ground telling us of those. That doesn't change the fact that the ruling class felt Israels actions were justified because they were fighting a barbaric, uncivilised, medieval opponent.
Incidentally what does medieval
mean in the 21st century, maybe you could enlighten me. Do they wish to bring back Jousting?
On Mugabe, rather him than Cecil Rhodes.
I think the "civilsing" wests attitude to Africa is to be contrasted with stalinist China. China invests in infrastructure, empowers Africans to develop for themselves and doesn't think the likes of Bob Geldof and Geri Halliwell hold the key to it's future.
Now you speak of Capitalism in very glowing terms thoughout your blog, you talk of it's great civilising mission etc but when will this mission end and what exactly is it about capitalism you dislike, because I cannot tell from your writings.
As someone from a working class background in South Yorkshire I don't see the rose tinted version of Capitalism you seem to see and am therefore more impatient to see the back of it.
“Ok, maybe I have not fully understood your views on co-operatives. I will wait for your article to make comments.”
ReplyDeleteI will welcome your views and criticisms.
”Firstly, I didn't tell anyone to join or submit to Hamas, the oppressed Palestinians decided that for themselves.”
Only some did. Some Germans decided to support the Nazis, that didn’t mean that Marxists had to go along with it. The majority of Palestinians disagree with Hamas and your goal of a single Palestinian State. The large majority favour a Two State solution. On that they disagree with me too. I support their right to choose that solution, and oppose any attempt by Israel to prevent them creating such a State by force. That doesn’t commit me to arguing for such a solution myself, anymore than the fact that I defend the right of Scots to demand their own state would ever get me to argue for such a solution myself. My argument is that both your solution and the solution of the Two Staters is unrealisable, and both for that reason end up arguing a reactionary position. I believe that my solution provides the basis for changing the current relation of forces by working class struggle, and in so doing opens the door for a solution that would indeed allow either a democratic, federal and secular state for Jews and Palestinians to be established, AND would if they so wished it create the conditions under which a separate Palestinian state could exist alongside Israel.
”The BBC broadly favours Israel in it's broadcasting in my judgement and reflects the establishment interests, would you dispute this?”
Absolutely not.
”It didn't take the BBC to tell us about the atrocities, there were people on the ground telling us of those. That doesn't change the fact that the ruling class felt Israel’s actions were justified because they were fighting a barbaric, uncivilised, medieval opponent.”
But, the BBC and other media outlets DID show those things. Actually, I don’t think the ruling class did think what you said. I think the ruling class thought that Israel had gone over the top. Even frequent apologists for Israel such as Gerald Kaufman spoke out in quite clear terms against Israel in Parliament comparing Israel’s attacks on Palestinians in their beds with the Nazis attacks on Jews in their beds. I think that actually a lot of the BBC coverage was quite dismissive of some of the apologism coming from official Israeli spokespeople.
”Incidentally what does medieval mean in the 21st century, maybe you could enlighten me. Do they wish to bring back Jousting?”
It means a series of ideas based on the kind of mysticism of that period, and the concomitant attack on science and secularism. It means a return to paternalistic forms of society with the concomitant ideas about sexuality and the role of women in society. I don’t reserve that just for Political Islamists it applies equally to the growing power of Christian fundamentalists too, who on the back of the retreat of secularists in the face of Political Islam have again begun to spread their own brand of filth and intolerance.
”On Mugabe, rather him than Cecil Rhodes.”
Why do you always take the attitude “My enemy’s enemy is my friend”? Why can you not see that the working class has many enemies, and its task is not to side with which ever at any time appears the lesser evil, but is to treat them all as enemies, taking advantages of divisions between them by all means, but never placing any reliance on any of them? Your answer here is again evasive, from which if I were a Zimbabwean worker I would have to conclude that you side with my main enemy Mugabe. After all Rhodes hasn’t been around for a very long time.
“I think the "civilising" west,s attitude to Africa is to be contrasted with Stalinist China. China invests in infrastructure, empowers Africans to develop for themselves and doesn't think the likes of Bob Geldof and Geri Halliwell hold the key to it's future.”
In part I agree, and I have said so in the past here. But, let’s be clear China’s role here is just as expansionist. It is seeking supplies of the materials it requires by the most effective means. It is also in the process acquiring for itself political alliances for the time when the world goes into a long wave downturn, and when competition for these materials turns from economic competition to military competition. The Value transfers between China and Africa in these projects are not at all equal, China is gaining massively in Value terms, and in the process of developing infrastructure – which it needs to get these materials out – and industrialisation, and education, it is preparing the ground for a large expansion of Chinese Capital into these areas in what will in the truest sense of the word be an imperialist expansion i.e. the export of surplus Capital to exploit available foreign labour.
”Now you speak of Capitalism in very glowing terms throughout your blog, you talk of it's great civilising mission etc but when will this mission end and what exactly is it about capitalism you dislike, because I cannot tell from your writings.”
I speak of it in no more glowing terms than did Marx or Lenin. Remember Lenin’s retort to the Narodniks that the problem in Russia was “not Capitalism, but not enough Capitalism” in his “The development of Capitalism in Russia, where he points out that it was in the Capitalist enterprises where workers got better wages and conditions than in the traditional handicraft industries, and so on.
My criticism of Capitalism is precisely that of Marx and Lenin. The productive forces have developed to a stage whereby socialism has become possible. Socialism will develop the productive forces more effectively than can Capitalism, and will thereby create the conditions in which Man can become truly free, and whereby his true nature will be released.
Capitalism is a contradictory system whereby at the same time that it raises the productive forces and the standard of living of the majority it also creates for a growing Minority increasing relative poverty, and even on occasion absolute poverty. Because Capitalism is an unplanned system in which production has been separated from consumption its development proceeds by repeated crises which destroy Capital, and productive potential along with masses of unsold goods, even though many social wants go unfulfilled. In doing so, during such crises it not only causes poverty for that constant small minority, but also temporarily for a much larger number of workers. The same cause alienates Man both from his product, and from his fellow Man, leading him not only to have no interest in his Labour, but also causing him to suffer a whole series of psychological and physical disorders arising from the stress that this alienation causes.
Because the Capitalist is as much a prisoner of Capitalism as is the worker the individual Capitalist whatever his individual inclinations is forced to follow the laws of Capitalist accumulation, that is to maximise profit according to some given criteria. In doing so the Capitalist is always needing to increase the surplus value produced by the worker by either extending or intensifying the working day, and thereby shortening the worker’s life.
This search after the maximum profit is the root cause of the overproduction of Capital and he periodic crises that this results in. It is also the reason why, when the Capitalists in a particular country come up against the barrier of insufficient exploitable Labour i.e. they can no longer use up all of their Capital at home in such a way as to produce an acceptable level of profit, they seek to invest this Capital overseas. Whilst during times of long wave expansion, this overseas investment, and the competition between various imperialist powers that flow from it, can proceed peaceably, at times of Long Wave decline this competition for exploitable labour, for sources of raw materials, and for markets for goods can no longer be accommodated within the restrictions of much lower levels of profit, and spills over into attempts to control these overseas territories. It leads to imperialist wars in which millions of workers die not for their own interests, but the interests of their ruling class.
For the same reasons Capital tends to take a short term approach to he very world in which we live despoiling it in the search for short term profit, and then seeking oince again to profit by various means of cleaning it up.
How’s that for a beginning?
”As someone from a working class background in South Yorkshire I don't see the rose tinted version of Capitalism you seem to see and am therefore more impatient to see the back of it”
I can assure you that your background is likely to be no more working class than my own, for example see A Tribute to My Parents for a very brief glimpse. But, coming from that background and seeing the developments over the last 55 years of my lifetime it would be stupid of me to deny the improvements I see around me, not only that affect me and my family, but which have affected all of the many ordinary working class people I live amongst and speak to everyday.
I assure you that I am no less impatient to see the back of Capitalism than you. In fact given my age, and the hopes I have for Socialism, given my various illnesses that I hope a socialist society might be able to deal with I may be more so. But, if I set out on a journey I will not let my impatience to get to the destination lead me to set off without a map, all the necessary preparations for the journey and so on. I will be guided by scientific principles not by emotion in order to make the journey successfully. Given past experience of such journeys the last thing I want is to breakdown, get lost waylaid or some other misfortune. Least still do I want to arrive, and find that I have gone to the wrong place.
Moving account of your life.
ReplyDeletePersonally I have never been one for going into Family history. It's probably on account of coming from a large family, I would imagine small families to be closer knit.
All I would say is that my dad worked as an engineer making Hydraulic fittings until the realities of absolute economics came to fruition and he was a union activist. My mum woked as a nurse but is not politcally engaged, so you can imagine how mad we drive her!
Anyway back to the argument,
I do not agree with your assertion that Israel restrained itself because it was in the media spotlight, it has got away with atrocities before and must calculate that it will get away with them in the future. The meida coverage also does not show dead bodies or anything like that, it's fairly sanitised stuff. I think they also treat the deaths of Israelis and Palestininas differently, with the conclusion that an Israeli life is of more worth than a Palestinian one.
On China, I would not like to be seeing to apologise for China's massive exploitation and I guess the mass of surplus value has to be transported somewhere but it seems ditinct from the "civilisng west".
On Mugabe and other socialist states formed in developing countries, I think that a socialist revolution must start in the economic powerhouses first to be successful elsewhere as I have stated before. I would therefore not moralise about Mugabe and blame him for all of Zimbabwe's problems. It seems like a fairly split society to me and Mugabe is afraid of the west trying to gain influence and having fought colonialism you can see why he would be hostile to that.
I would argue that there are signs that the decaying west are retreating back to some of those victorian values but we have to ask retreating back from where. The west is extraorinarily decadent and to people who are poor more conservative religious values can seem very appealing. I still don't think this means Hamas are economically medieval, how could they be. Equating these religious values to anti-science does not stack up with History. Some of the most religious societies have contributed some of history's greatest science.
“I do not agree with your assertion that Israel restrained itself because it was in the media spotlight, it has got away with atrocities before and must calculate that it will get away with them in the future. The meida coverage also does not show dead bodies or anything like that, it's fairly sanitised stuff. I think they also treat the deaths of Israelis and Palestininas differently, with the conclusion that an Israeli life is of more worth than a Palestinian one.”
ReplyDeleteI wasn’t saying that Israel had restrained itself. No one can see the extent of the bombing, the shelling and general slaughter and describe that as in any way restrained. I was trying to make a point about this particular incident that its one thing to accuse a State – it doesn’t matter of whether its Israel or anyone else – of showing total disregard for human life, including civilians – the same could be said of Britain’s bombing of Dresden, Hamburg and so on – and to accuse individual soldiers of such things in the field of battle.
The point I was trying to make had nothing really to do with THIS conflict, it was a point in general about wars, and how blame is apportioned. When I titled it “Don’t Blame The Troops” I wasn’t meaning these particular troops, but troops in general. It was only this incident that sparked the response. What I was trying to say was, “We don’t know what happened here, and probably never will.” Its one thing to say that Israel bombed areas indiscriminately, and another to say it or more correctly THESE troops deliberately targeted civilians in this school with no reason. What I was trying to say was, I’m not saying that that DIDN’T happen, because we have seen in past wars, including the Civil War in Russia, soldiers – even soldiers fighting in a socialist army – do commit atrocities. As socialists we don’t condone the atrocity, but again as socialists we do seek to understand the sociological and psychological causes for people to act in that way. We don’t believe in moral categories of “Good” and “Evil” as explanations for human behaviour, we see that people are what society makes them. We condemn criminal who mugs an old lady, but we condemn the capitalist society that creates the mugger in the first place.
Why do soldiers commit atrocities, because soldiers like everyone else have been brought up and conditioned by a class based society that engenders in people base human instincts. Even a revolution such as 1917, doesn’t remove that social conditioning for a very long time. And those base instinct are heightened even more by war, which brutalises and dehumanises those involved to an even more acute degree than does normal life within class society.
What I was trying to say was for all those reasons these particular troops MIGHT have been guilty of such an atrocity, but even if they were our real condemnation should be not of those troops, but of the Israeli state that sent them into battle. But, I was also trying to make the point as well that there is a general tendency even for socialists of falling into the trap of looking for scapegoats, of looking to blame someone down the food chain. It is quite possible that these troops were under fire from militia nearby the school and using it as cover. Under those conditions, even though I oppose those troops being there in the first place, I could not in all conscience condemn them for returning fire to protect their own lives, because that is what I and most other people would do.
”On China, I would not like to be seeing to apologise for China's massive exploitation and I guess the mass of surplus value has to be transported somewhere but it seems ditinct from the "civilisng west".”
We’ll see. As I have written elsewhere Third World War? , at the present we are in a phase of Long Wave upturn. In a similar period during the latter part of the 19th century similar expansion of colonial powers took place in relative tranquillity. It was only when that Long Wave expansion ended in 1914, that peaceful relations between those powers broke down, and they went to war for control over those foreign markets and sources of raw materials. This long wave expansion should last until around 2020 or 2025. We will see then how these contending powers deal with their need to have secure supplies, and markets for their goods, and what means they are prepared to use both to obtain them, and to keep their competitors from doing so. We might then see the re-emergence of the kind of colonialism you referred to previously. But we shouldn’t confuse the potential for that in 20 years time, with the reality of today.
”On Mugabe and other socialist states formed in developing countries, I think that a socialist revolution must start in the economic powerhouses first to be successful elsewhere as I have stated before. I would therefore not moralise about Mugabe and blame him for all of Zimbabwe's problems. It seems like a fairly split society to me and Mugabe is afraid of the west trying to gain influence and having fought colonialism you can see why he would be hostile to that.”
I can’t agree with hardly any of that. Firstly, Zimbabwe never was, never could be a “socialist” state. Mugabe’s politics from the beginning was bourgeois nationalist. Despite that, socialists had to support the anti-colonial struggle, and within that fight for a more adequate proletarian and socialist leadership of the struggle – just as they do now in Palestine, and indeed as they have to do with the refinery strikes. For the reasons Lenin gave for the Russian revolution, I’m not going to argue against workers trying to overthrow Capitalism in a less developed state. For the reasons I’ve set out elsewhere, and will set out shortly in my article on Co-operatives, I think we have a duty to set out why the Russian revolution necessarily was deformed, and ultimately failed, why we have to learn the lessons of that and develop workers self-organisation and consciousness, but if some less developed country tomorrow embarks on a revolution aimed at overthrowing capitalist private property, and transferring that property into the hands of the workers, it’s the duty of every revolutionary to support them, and to use it as an encouragement to workers everywhere.
Its not a matter of moralising about Mugabe, but of criticising his viciously anti-working class politics, and his attacks on Zimbabwean workers. No amount of concern for Colonial intervention can excuse that. On the contrary, its necessary for socialists to demonstrate why its precisely the reactionary, anti-working class politics of Mugabe that will make such a Colonialist intervention more likely, if not inevitable, why it has already led to the establishment of a bourgeois reformist force in the MDC.
”I would argue that there are signs that the decaying west are retreating back to some of those victorian values but we have to ask retreating back from where.”
I don’t see it. Whatever criticism I might have of Obama’s politics to see a Black Man elected as President of the United States, a country which over the last few years has been dominated by a well organised, vocal and numerous Christian Right, a Black Man who has spoken out in favour of a Woman’s Right to Choose, and other such progressive measures that totally conflict with that Christian Right, and to have been elected by such a large majority, does not say to me that we are moving backwards.
“The west is extraordinarily decadent and to people who are poor more conservative religious values can seem very appealing.”
I agree. People usually don’t understand Marx’s comment about religion being the “Opium of the people”, he meant in the sense not only of putting them to sleep, but more importantly of relieving their pain. But, Marx didn’t make concessions to religion because of it.
“I still don't think this means Hamas are economically medieval, how could they be.”
I didn’t say they were. I was referring to their ideology, their social and philosophical standpoint. There is no mechanical relationship between the economic base, and the ideological superstructure. A Capitalist economic base, and even Capitalist State in Russia, coincided with a medieval feudalist political regime. There were many aspects of Nazism that were medievalist in its paternalism, its resort to symbolism, and even mysticism, but it was superimposed on a capitalist economic framework. The Church of England, and of Rome are highly medieval in their doctrines, yet like the feudal aristocracy along with whom they grew up, and on whose social relations they fed, they have integrated and adopted that to the needs of capitalist society.
“Equating these religious values to anti-science does not stack up with History. Some of the most religious societies have contributed some of history's greatest science.”
I agree, religion like everything else is contradictory, its development is dialectical. Even the Catholic Church accepts Darwin and the Big Bang, but it is forced thereby to defend its mystical conception by resort to ever more convoluted arguments e.g. Intelligent Design. But, the underlying philosophy of religion the appeal to faith and not reason is undeniably anti-scientific. As a Marxist, who believes that the key to understanding society, and more importantly changing society lies with the science of Marxism just as much as understanding the material world relies on that scientific approach any politics which bases itself on that form of anti-scientific mysticism is anathema to me, and has to be opposed and exposed. Even the bourgeoisie based their revolution, and their politics on Reason, to look to political organisations that look to the source of their ideas, and solutions to all of those pre-Enlightenment concepts should be unacceptable to any socialist. It threatens to take us back several centuries, several centuries of what have been difficult struggle even to achieve the limited freedoms and benefits of bourgeois society. Our task is to go forward not back. As Engels put it,
“And after all, the modern bourgeois, with civilisation, industry, order, and at least relative enlightenment following him, is preferable to the feudal lord or the marauding robber, with the barbarian state of society to which they belong.”
Boffy,
ReplyDeleteWill you be commenting on the Israeli elections in the context of your utopian views?
Have you read the article in the socialist worker Israeli society:No room for change?
Why have you no links to Gaza Aid sites or the like, does it offend your intellect to help people suffering oppression? Is it too emotional?
You must have been saddened that Geert Wilders was not allowed to enlighten us on the dangers of clerical fascism.
I may get round to writing something about the Israeli Elections when I have time to study the results and implications. In general I am more interested in how Marxists can mobile the working class than with electoral politics. As its stands I've been too busy with practical activity against the BNP to have looked in detail at those results, and I'm still trying to write about Co-operatives.
ReplyDeleteFor the same reason I haven't read the SW article, but given the SWP's Left Anti-Semitism I wouldn't expect too muc from it anyway.
As for no links to GAZA Aid sites, I don't have links to many different things on my site, largely due to lack of time and so on, and as I've said previously I beleive the best solution is the establishment of a Workers Aid organisation that could ensure that such support was used progressively. After all, we saw only a couple of weeks ago that Aid that was destined for the oppressed Palestinians was in fact hijacked by Hamas for its own use.
As for Geert Wilders I have no particular desire to hear his right-wing views, but as a socialist I obviously object to the use of bans on the movement of individuals, and the restriction of free speech imposed by the bourgeois state as socialists always have opposed such bans.
I'm rather surprised that you appear to support the bouregois state having the right to restrict free speech, and free movement as this is inevitably used against socialists, but then I suppose we've already seen from your previous statements that you have more in common with those authoritarians of clerical-fascism than you do with any form of socialism, except perhaps the kind of reactioanry socialism that Marx and Engels criticised.
Boffy,
ReplyDeleteI didn’t mention Wilders to comment on his ban but to highlight how your brand of socialism often brings you into agreement with people like him, Christopher Hitchens, Nick Cohen, Richard Littlejohn and other well known “progressives”. Again your false logic implies something other that what was intended.
As for free speech, in a capitalist society your freedom of speech is closely equated with the size of your wallet. Everyone is free, but some are freer than others. I think the same can be said for movement as well. You don’t have to bring out legislation to restrict free speech, when did your last hear a Marxist perspective on TV? But your idea of free speech seems to be only interested in the freedom for the powerful to have their say.
Thank god for the internet! Viva technology!
As for aid, at least you didn’t say sending it was petite-bourgeoisie! I like your idea of a worker aid organisation but I guess the plight of the Palestinians, at the hands of ISRAEL, is too immediate to wait for that.
The SWP Anti-Semitic, is that some kind of sick joke?
Good luck with the fight against the BNP.
However, because you refuse to interact with the state, your politics end up in a different dimension, outside most people’s perception of the real world and you therefore fail to connect with these people
“I didn’t mention Wilders to comment on his ban but to highlight how your brand of socialism often brings you into agreement with people like him, Christopher Hitchens, Nick Cohen, Richard Littlejohn and other well known “progressives”. Again your false logic implies something other that what was intended.”
ReplyDeleteIf I were a bourgeois – or even some sections of the Left – I would describe this statement as thoroughly libellous. As it is I’ll simply describe it for what it is a downright lie. Where in anything I have said have I associated myself with the politics of these right-wing or pseudo-Left ideologues???? Not one single jot of truth can be adduced to support such a claim. I have nowhere given even the slightest grounds for such an outrageous statement, and ask you to either prove it or withdraw it. But, if we want to point to people actually who DO side with reactionaries then we have to look no further than to your own support stated clearly for the clerical-fascists of Hamas, of Hezbollah and other anti-working class forces, your statements in support of the not only viciously anti-working class Ahmedinejad who jails Trade Unionists, but who also lines up with the other fascists in denying the Holocaust!!!!!
”As for free speech, in a capitalist society your freedom of speech is closely equated with the size of your wallet. Everyone is free, but some are freer than others. I think the same can be said for movement as well. You don’t have to bring out legislation to restrict free speech, when did your last hear a Marxist perspective on TV? But your idea of free speech seems to be only interested in the freedom for the powerful to have their say.”
Yet another lie? Where on Earth have I said that? Either put up or shut up. Give us one example of where I have said that freedom of speech and movement should only be for the rich!!!! Bloody hell, I thought that the Doublespeak of the Stalinists and Fascists was bad enough, but you are taking it to new heights. Its you that made a comment that implicitly supported the right of the bourgeois state to prevent free speech and movement not me for Christ’s sake!!!!! Like every Marxist before me I oppose the bourgeois state having that power precisely BECAUSE it will use such power against workers far more than it will use it against fascists and other reactionaries, will even use to impose cultural censorship on literature and art on religious criticism etc.
”Thank god for the internet! Viva technology!”
Absolutely, but as the actions of the Chinese Stalinists demonstrates not itself immune from censorship.
”As for aid, at least you didn’t say sending it was petite-bourgeoisie! I like your idea of a worker aid organisation but I guess the plight of the Palestinians, at the hands of ISRAEL, is too immediate to wait for that.”
I agree, which is why I have stated several times that such humanitarian aid should be supported, though as I said I am very wary of the possibility given the conditions for either Hamas to hijack supplies for its own militias and elite as it did recently, rather than those supplies going to the oppressed Palestinians, or for those supplies to be used to apply political pressure. There is, in fact, no reason, why a Workers Aid organisation could not be established quickly and effectively, we have large Trade Union organisations capable of doing that immediately. During the Miners Strike I organised weekly collections, as many other comrades did, that supplied large sums of money to go to the NUM for the support of hard up Miners’ families, and that wsa done in a matter of days not weeks.
”The SWP Anti-Semitic, is that some kind of sick joke?”
No not at all, there’s a large volume of discussion on it. A look at the activities of the SWP’s student organisation are a very obvious example, where they have called for the closing down of Jewish Societies in Universities and so on.
”Good luck with the fight against the BNP.
However, because you refuse to interact with the state, your politics end up in a different dimension, outside most people’s perception of the real world and you therefore fail to connect with these people.”
What do you mean I refuse to interact with the state, for God’s sake? I was a City Councillor back in the 1980’s, and a County Councillor for 8 years from 1997!!!!! Of course, I interact with the State, every Marxist has to it’s a reality. But interacting with it, does not at all mean advising workers to rely on it! It means as Lenin set out in left-Wing Communism taking workers existing faith in bourgeois democracy, and attempting through such interaction to undermine it, to show to workers why they should not have faith in the bourgeois state. Its why in those positions I have always used the position to say to workers don’t think that I as a Councillor can solve your problems, I can’t, only you can do that, and I’m here to try to help you do so. That’s precisely why I DO connect with such people, and why the left is completely alienated from them!
I said can bring you into agreement with these people, Nick Cohen shares the same view of Hamas as you do, ie medievalist clerical fascist nutters, as does Hitchens. The right wing uses these labels to justify their imperialist wars and persuade the masses to follow them. And people on the left, like you, start apologising for these wars by saying to others on the left, “so you would be happy to see Saddam back.” This position lines you up on the side of George Bush, the most reactionary US president in history.
ReplyDeleteThis kind of cultural relativism creates conditions where forces like the BNP can flourish.
I accept that politically you are at the opposite end of the spectrum to these scumbags.
Why can you make demands to the state regarding free speech but criticise the left when doing so. I’m arguing that free speech doesn’t exist anyway. Banning Wilders does not change this. As I said when did you last hear a Marxist perspective in the media? Not even to explain the current crisis. AND IT WAS YOU who took my statement to falsely imply that I supported the ban, I thought a taste of your own medicine might make you think twice in future.
Many trade unions already have funds for such circumstances, shame they are not in a position to join up and combine these funds. I think this may tell us something about trade unions in our society, how they behave and are organised just as the establishment would like them.
The SWP’s actions are a response to Israeli actions and designed to make Israel accountable for those actions. I’m glad they are doing this as no one else makes them accountable. (Though I wouldn’t be in favour of closing Jewish societies but I’m guessing I would be in favour of the so on’s that you failed to expand on).
I don’t think the left ask workers to rely on the state, they advise them to seize control of it and use it for their own interests. Let’s call it a dictatorship of the proletariat.
“I said can bring you into agreement with these people, Nick Cohen shares the same view of Hamas as you do, ie medievalist clerical fascist nutters, as does Hitchens.”
ReplyDeleteWhat you said was,
“I didn’t mention Wilders to comment on his ban but to highlight how your brand of socialism often brings you into agreement with people like him, Christopher Hitchens, Nick Cohen, Richard Littlejohn and other well known “progressives”.
And my question remains how on Earth can you claim that anything I stand for is the same as Littlejohn let alone Wilders? There is no point making such a statement that it CAN lead me into agreement with them unless you believe that it HAS. I repeat in what way is my politics in agreement with even Littlejohn let alone Wilders? It quite clearly is not. Your statement is the old tactic used by the Stalinists known as the amalgam, which is you take a statement by some hate figure in this case Wilders, and then you take some statement by me, you equate the two statements even though the politics behind them both is diametrically opposed, and then say, “There you see, the politics of these two are the same.”
The most you can claim is that such people describe Hamas and co as clerical-fascists and so do I. But, if you asked these people what is the Capital of France they would probably say, Paris, and so would I. The reason? Paris is the Capital of France. They say Hamas are clerical-fascists and so do I. The reason? They are clerical-fascists? Marxists do not stop telling the truth just because our political opponents happen to describe things in the same way. Marxists didn’t stop describing Stalin as a tyrant, just because the McCarthyites also said he was. Though, of course, the Stalinists DID change their attitude to Hitler to conform with Stalin’s Pact with him, and look how that turned out. That is the tragedy you are heading towards today.
“The right wing uses these labels to justify their imperialist wars and persuade the masses to follow them. And people on the left, like you, start apologising for these wars by saying to others on the left, “so you would be happy to see Saddam back.
This position lines you up on the side of George Bush, the most reactionary US president in history.”
Do I indeed? In my previous reply to you I asked you to give just one statement that supported the lies you put out in your post. I asked you to put up or shut up. You have, of course failed, to provide even one single statement by me that supports the lies you wrote. Instead, you simply follow the method of Stalin, and of Dr. Goebbels, if one lie doesn’t work, add another bigger lie to it.
Give us just one statement by me where I have justified the US invasion of Iraq, or anywhere else. Go on, just one statement to prove your lies. You can’t, fort he simple reason there are none, whereas I can give you plenty of quotes from me, not only opposing the invasion, but calling for Iraqi workers, and the international labour movement to mobilise to kick the troops out of Iraq.
Give us just one statement where I have said what you lyingly claim I have said, ““so you would be happy to see Saddam back”. Go on, if I’ve said that anywhere, show us where I said it. You can’t, because I’ve never said it. Your politics stink to high heaven, and unable to argue them honestly, you resort to simply telling lies.
”This kind of cultural relativism creates conditions where forces like the BNP can flourish.”
And its you that’s guilty of it. Its you that told us that the BNP like Hamas, could be defined as progressive by definition of if it led a progressive strike. Well, since that discussion we had a practical application didn’t we with the refinery strikes. Here were workers defending the idea that they had a right to work, fighting against employers undermining their pay and conditions. On that basis a progressive strike just as the Palestinians struggle is progressive in fighting their oppression. Unfortunately, like the Palestinians, the fact that they are not yet Marxists, not fully class conscious, meant that the demands under which they conducted this strike, the means by which they thought they could address their problem, were reactionary. The response was illustrative. On the one hand, the Stalinists took a similar approach to that you take to the Palestinians. We have to support he workers on strike they said, and never mind the reactionary demand for “British Jobs for British Workers” just as you say, never mind the clerical-fascist politics of Hamas or Hezbollah or Ahmedinejad, or the BNP. On the other there were the sectarians who took fright at the reactionary demands, and lost sight of their duty to support workers in struggle and to try to win them away from those reactionary demands. Fortunately, there were others who had members involved in the strike, who steered a more or less correct Marxist path and argued for support for the workers, but opposition to the reactionary demands, and who successfully won the workers away from it. That is the position a Marxist should take in relation to Palestine. Full support for the Palestinians in their struggle against oppression, opposition to the resolution of that situation on the basis of reactionary demands, and no political support for the alien class forces pushing those reactionary solutions.
”I accept that politically you are at the opposite end of the spectrum to these scumbags.”
Yet, you use the Stalinist tactic of the amalgam to lyingly try to tar me with that brush.
”Why can you make demands to the state regarding free speech but criticise the left when doing so.”
I don’t demand that the State guarantees free speech anymore than I demand it do anything else in the workers interest, because I know that it won’t. I speak out against attempts of the State to RESTRICT free speech, and point to the fact that in doing so it always uses such restrictions in the interests of the ruling class.
“I’m arguing that free speech doesn’t exist anyway. Banning Wilders does not change this. As I said when did you last hear a Marxist perspective in the media? Not even to explain the current crisis. AND IT WAS YOU who took my statement to falsely imply that I supported the ban, I thought a taste of your own medicine might make you think twice in future.”
True free speech doesn’t exist to the extent that the rich can always use their wealth and power and position to shout louder than workers, but its facile to say that free speech does not exist. Try living in China, and see if you can tell the difference! Try living in Iran, where Trade Unionists get locked up, or murdered. Actually, you do get Marxist perspectives in the media, you do get films made by Marxists like Ken Loach shown on the TV and so on. Again you have a very crude politics. Perhaps, I’m older than you. I can remember when Gay News were prosecuted for Blasphemy – something which the attempts to restrict free speech by Muslims in relation to criticising Mohammed would bring back – and I can remember the Court case over Lady Chatterley’s Lover. As Marxists we don’t call for the Capitalist State to enforce free speech, because it never will impartially, but we are not indifferent to that State having the overt power to restrict it.
As for the ban on Wilders there was no other way that your statement COULD be interpreted other than you supporting his being banned. That is you put yourself on the side of the bourgeois state, and its right to restrict free speech and free movement. A wholly reactionary position like most of the positions you hold.
”Many trade unions already have funds for such circumstances, shame they are not in a position to join up and combine these funds. I think this may tell us something about trade unions in our society, how they behave and are organised just as the establishment would like them.”
Yet, those unions did engage in such action to give assistance to the miners for instance. They have in the past actually given humanitarian aid. Those same unions in the 1930’s were also part of the mechanism by which the International Brigade was organised. It says, more about the demoralisation of the working class, the lack of class consciousness, the miserable condition of the left, and its limited statist, party building politics, and the kind of thing I blogged about recently in relation to the way a culture has been created, and not challenged by the left, of leave it to someone else, it’s the role of the State etc.
”The SWP’s actions are a response to Israeli actions and designed to make Israel accountable for those actions. I’m glad they are doing this as no one else makes them accountable. (Though I wouldn’t be in favour of closing Jewish societies but I’m guessing I would be in favour of the so on’s that you failed to expand on).”
The so ons are, for example, inviting over ant-semites such as Giliad Atzmon, they are the kind of comments made by the SWP against Searchlight as being controlled by Jews, when it challenged its role in Bradford of dealing with the question of “grooming”, when the SWP wanted to sweep it under the carpet for fear of alienating its potential Muslim recruits. And in any case “making Israel pay” by attacking Jews as Jews IS Left Anti-Semitism, it is a collective punishment of a people, for being who they are.
”I don’t think the left ask workers to rely on the state, they advise them to seize control of it and use it for their own interests. Let’s call it a dictatorship of the proletariat.”
Well, if they advise workers to seize the State then they are reformists, because that is what the reformists call for, and Lenin pointed out following Marx, precisely why you CANNOT simply lay your hands on the State. The State has to be smashed as he and Marx both said, because it is a bourgeois state. I suggest you read Lenin’s “State and Revolution” where that point is made most forcefully, and clearly.
But, the fact is that if you look at most of the left press on a number of issues recently you will not see them advising either the smashing of the bourgeois state OR seizing control of the State.
A few examples.
The Banks: Nearly all the left has called for the Capitalist State to nationalise the banks. Yes, to use Marx’s words “out of a sense of shame” they add in to cover themselves “under workers control”, but no one in their right minds believes either that Gordon Brown is going to do that or that the present labour Movement could force workers control on him. So its really a call for Gordon Brown to bail out the capitalist bankers with workers money.
The NHS: The Left supports the retention of a State Capitalist Health Service that time and again shows that its not fit for purpose let alone meets the needs of workers. It can’t even reach basic levels of hygiene to prevent workers dying from C-Diff, and MRSA let alone anything else. Its run by highly paid bureaucrats and Consultants like their own private fiefdom, and ripped off by the drug companies. Yet, the left in quite rightly opposing its privatisation offers no criticism of these deficiencies, no criticism of its state capitalist nature, no suggestion even that it might be placed under more democratic control let alone even attempting “out of a sense of shame”, be placed under workers control.
Housing: In the face of a crisis of social housing, moves to its privatisation etc. and a mounting crisis of housing repossessions, what is the response of the left? It calls on the Capitalist state to sort out the problem of mortgages, it calls on the local Capitalist State not to privatise the housing and so on. In the case of the latter this is the same local Capitalist State which for years has left workers houses to rot, has totally mismanaged Council Housing estates, whilst providing lucrative jobs for local capitalist state bureaucrats in administering an expensive, bureaucratic and authoritarian system.
The list actually goes on.
Boffy,
ReplyDeleteThe soviets tried fighting the Nazi's in spain, when the civilisng west were taking a break from their "civilisng" mission.
Your brand of socialism does sometimes bring you into agreement with these people, take your views on sanctions against South Africa, you take a view supported by the most rabid element of the right.
Almost the whole of Nick Cohen’s output is about the ultra reactionary Islamic groups and the Lefts pathetic apologising of it. Your positions are extremely similar. He indulges in the cultural relativism I mentioned, railing against “genital mutilation” etc. Let’s extend that criticism to every “backward” people shall we, let’s rail against “lip mutilation” or the drug taking of the South American tribes. Let’s scream at them “WHY CAN’T YOU BE MORE LIKE US”.
Your views go beyond just agreeing the "facts" (Paris is the capital of France), the tone and logic are the same as well, the following examples will illustrate the point,
Here is Littlejohn on Israel/Palestine
“I'm not going to revisit all the arguments. This has less to do with the Palestinian cause and everything to do with the global jihad and Iranian-sponsored terrorism aimed at wiping Israel off the face of the Earth.
Yet where are the violent demonstrations outside Iranian embassies in London and around the world? Precisely. Israel will do what it has to do to defend itself from the Hamas and Hezbollah death cults. “
He repeats your argument that Hamas are nothing but a front for Iran and decries them in the same way you do.
Here are words of wisdom from every socialists friend, Melanie Phillips,
“These are not confined to the thuggish demonstrations organised by an alliance of Islamists and the far-Left we have seen on the streets of London at the weekend. Many others also share the view that Israel is in the wrong. So why is a country under attack from genocidal fanatics pilloried for defending its citizens against slaughter?
The main complaint is that Israel’s response is ‘disproportionate’, since some 500 Palestinians have been killed compared with ‘only’ four Israelis since the war started nine days ago.
This is absurd. In World War II, 20 times more civilians were killed in Germany than in Britain. Did that make the war against the Nazis ‘disproportionate’? Of course not.”
“Alas, the civilian death toll will unavoidably mount, which is deeply regrettable. But what must be understood is that Hamas have deliberately situated their weapons under apartment blocks, in mosques and in hospitals.
The Israelis build bomb shelters for their civilians; Hamas store bombs underneath their civilians in order to create as many civilian casualties as possible to manipulate world opinion.”
She repeats your criticisms of the left, describes Hamas in the exact way you do and compares the fight against Hamas to the Nazi’s, exactly as you do. Finally she repeats as you do that Hamas use civilians as human shields as if they have a choice. (And she cries false tears over the civilian casualties)
I actually could go on and on and on and on.
We have yet to see wht the outcome of the refinery strikes will be, I tend to agree with you on this but in wider society it may yet boost the BNP.
I don’t believe in making Jews pay (and I didn’t say that), only Zionists, Jews are more than welcome to join the cause and many have. I accept that in an ideal world these tactics would be wrong but until that world is realised then I think they are justified.
I think with the grooming issue it is more to do with countering the kind of flurry of anti Muslim bile from the right wing press, reminiscent of the abuse suffered by the Jews in the run up to the holocaust. And if you think that couldn’t happen here, just look at the recent successes of the BNP. All communities have problems but when it is singled out in an orchestrated racist way you have to counter it, you can’t get involved in weighing up the pros and cons.
One Ken Loach film every 5 years is Marxist perspective is it. The censorship on the news channels is to be ignored. I take it all back, the Bourgeoisie are wonderful!
You examples of leftist demands probably highlight the utopian nature of the demands in the current circumstances, how we get to the point where workers are ready and fit for a new society god only knows. I suppose the left are trying to work with what they have, however imperfect. What tactically Marx advocated in the 19th century and what he would advocate now seems a pointless argument to me.
When times are “good” people do not want to hear about a new society for obvious reasons and when times are bad people move to the far right, the left is between a rock and a hard place.
”The soviets tried fighting the Nazi's in spain, when the civilisng west were taking a break from their "civilisng" mission.”
ReplyDeleteThe soviets were responsible for the Nazis coming to power in Spain as a result of following a position pretty identical to the one you are advocating. The aligned themselves with the workers enemies in the bourgeois camp, because in the same way that you see the clerical-fascists as a lesser-evil compared to imperialism or Israel, they saw them as a lesser-evil compared to the fascists. When Trotsky and the Trotskyists pointed out to them that this was bound to lead to disaster that it was completely counter to everything that Marxist principle was based upon they accused him of being a counter-revolutionary, of being in league with the fascists just as you lyingly accuse me of being in league with the Zionists and imperialists today. And when the Trotskyists managed to rally workers behind them in Spain to create their own militia to defend themselves when the inevitable attacks from those bourgeois allies of the Stalinists came about, the Stalinists lined themselves up with the bourgeoisie in murering those workers and revolutionaries just as today you stand shoulder to shoulder with Ahmedinejad and the other clerical-fascists while they also murder workers.
”Your brand of socialism does sometimes bring you into agreement with these people, take your views on sanctions against South Africa, you take a view supported by the most rabid element of the right.”
You lie yet again, one big lie piled on top of another. I argued for international workers solidarity with the workers of South Africa, for no reliance on the bourgeois nationalists of the ANC and the SACP, for the building of a Workers Party in South Africa committed to a revolutionary overthrow of apartheid as part of a permanent revolution leading to socialism.
SHOW ME WHERE THOSE RABID ELEMENTS OF THE RIGHT ARGUED FOR THAT OR WITHDRAW YOUR LIES.
”Almost the whole of Nick Cohen’s output is about the ultra reactionary Islamic groups and the Lefts pathetic apologising of it.”
He’s right to do so. The Left’s position in general is atrocious. It has nothing to do with proletarian internationalism. It is a throwback to the kind of Reactionary Socialism of 200 years ago. But Cohen is an apologist for Zionism, in that I thoroughly disagree with him. So how does that make our positions the same? It doesn’t.
“Your positions are extremely similar. He indulges in the cultural relativism I mentioned, railing against “genital mutilation” etc. Let’s extend that criticism to every “backward” people shall we, let’s rail against “lip mutilation” or the drug taking of the South American tribes. Let’s scream at them “WHY CAN’T YOU BE MORE LIKE US”.”
Absolutely, we should be arguing for people to be liberated from what Marx called the idiocy of rural life. Why would any modern human being want to acquiesce in such barbarism????? That is the whole point of struggling for socialism to lift mankind out of that kind of squalour isn’t it? The difference is that as socialists we want to do that by liberating those people, whereas capitalism wants to enslave them. That is the difference not some dubious morality.
”Your views go beyond just agreeing the "facts" (Paris is the capital of France), the tone and logic are the same as well, the following examples will illustrate the point,”
I’ll remind you of the “tone and logic”.
”Here is Littlejohn on Israel/Palestine
“I'm not going to revisit all the arguments. This has less to do with the Palestinian cause and everything to do with the global jihad and Iranian-sponsored terrorism aimed at wiping Israel off the face of the Earth.
Yet where are the violent demonstrations outside Iranian embassies in London and around the world? Precisely. Israel will do what it has to do to defend itself from the Hamas and Hezbollah death cults.“
”He repeats your argument that Hamas are nothing but a front for Iran and decries them in the same way you do.”
But, nothing here is to do with tone and logic. It is again a question of facts. And it is a fact that the left does not demonstrate outside the Iranian Embassy, despite the fact that it represents a regime that is thoroughly reactionary and oppressive. And for decades every Palestinian has known that they are used by such elements who have no real interest in the Palestinian cause, recent Palestinian statements on TV echoes that sentiment once again. And it has been proven that Iran finances Hezbollah and Hamas, just as the West finances Fatah, and is reported to fiancne an Al Qaeda linked group in Lebanon.
None of this has anything to do with tone or logic it remains on the ground of facts.
”Here are words of wisdom from every socialists friend, Melanie Phillips,
“These are not confined to the thuggish demonstrations organised by an alliance of Islamists and the far-Left we have seen on the streets of London at the weekend. Many others also share the view that Israel is in the wrong. So why is a country under attack from genocidal fanatics pilloried for defending its citizens against slaughter?
The main complaint is that Israel’s response is ‘disproportionate’, since some 500 Palestinians have been killed compared with ‘only’ four Israelis since the war started nine days ago.
This is absurd. In World War II, 20 times more civilians were killed in Germany than in Britain. Did that make the war against the Nazis ‘disproportionate’? Of course not.”
“Alas, the civilian death toll will unavoidably mount, which is deeply regrettable. But what must be understood is that Hamas have deliberately situated their weapons under apartment blocks, in mosques and in hospitals.
The Israelis build bomb shelters for their civilians; Hamas store bombs underneath their civilians in order to create as many civilian casualties as possible to manipulate world opinion.”
She repeats your criticisms of the left, describes Hamas in the exact way you do and compares the fight against Hamas to the Nazi’s, exactly as you do. Finally she repeats as you do that Hamas use civilians as human shields as if they have a choice. (And she cries false tears over the civilian casualties)”
Again what is the content of your criticism here. The words that are important here are describes, compares and so on. In other words we are dealing again here not with statements of political position, not with questions of logic, but once against with statements of fact. So she repeats my DESCRIPTION of the Left, you say. But, that is a description of facts not politics. If she agrees with my description I can hardly help that, but it only that an agreement on a fact or description nothing more. She DESCRIBES Hamas in the exact way that I do. Again we agree on the description, but so what, that tells you nothing about the politics that flows from that description. Finally, she REPEATS my statement that Hamas use civilian shields. Yet another agreement on basic facts. Just like we agree that Paris is the Capital of France, and that agreement on a fact tells you nothing more than that.
What then if we turn to the politics that flow from this? How much agreement is there on the political solutions. Answer, absolutely none. Phillips acts as an apologist for Israel’s attacks on Gaza, whereas I condemn them, describe them as slaughter and so on. Cohen is a Zionist and defends the right of Israel to exist as a racist state, whereas I condemn the racist polices of Israel, and argue for a working class solution to the problem of Israel and Palestine as part of a socialist solution for the Middle East.
Yet, you lyingly say that my politics are the same as these people!!!!
”I actually could go on and on and on and on.”
So could I.
”We have yet to see what the outcome of the refinery strikes will be, I tend to agree with you on this but in wider society it may yet boost the BNP.”
It may but we don’t have to wait for an outcome of the strikes as its over. The fact is that those that advocate my position were able to intervene and win the strike away from reactionary demands to a more progressive solution. If they had followed your approach to Israel/Palestine they would have said don’t say anything about the reactionary demands, don’t worry about the fact that it puts the responsibility on to foreign workers just concentrate on the lesser evil of winning the strike. Now that really would have strengthened the BNP, just as your politics strengthens the workers enemies in the Middle East, just as that approach strengthened the workers enemies in Spain.
”I don’t believe in making Jews pay (and I didn’t say that), only Zionists, Jews are more than welcome to join the cause and many have. I accept that in an ideal world these tactics would be wrong but until that world is realised then I think they are justified.”
That’s a dishonest argument because those that make it always argue that Jews who disagree with them must be Zionists. The proposal for a boycott of Israel makes no distinction between those Israelis who support a separate state for Palestinians, those who oppose their own state, indeed the very many Israeli Marxists like Moshe Machover, who certainly can’t be said to support Zionism, it attacks them all as Jews. That is the attitude the SWP and others have taken in Britain. It means in reality agree with us or you’re a Zionist, and fair game. Its why they can invite known anti-semites to SWP affairs in Britain.
”I think with the grooming issue it is more to do with countering the kind of flurry of anti Muslim bile from the right wing press, reminiscent of the abuse suffered by the Jews in the run up to the holocaust. And if you think that couldn’t happen here, just look at the recent successes of the BNP. All communities have problems but when it is singled out in an orchestrated racist way you have to counter it, you can’t get involved in weighing up the pros and cons.”
That’s bullshit. You don’t counter accusations that are true by trying to lie to workers about them and pretending that they are not true. As Trotsky said, the first duty of a revolutionary is to tell the truth to the workers even when that truth is unpalatable. By lying, by trying to push that situation under the carpet it acted to further divide white workers from Asian workers. It was thoroughly irresponsible, and it was done, for narrow sectarian purposes by the SWP who feared that dealing with the issue honestly would cause them to lose potential recruits.
Then when that was highlighted by local anti-fascists – because it was not local anti-fascists who wanted to do that, but the SWP who as usual parachuted in UAF members from outside – and by Searchlight, the SWP responded by implying that Searchlight had done this because of some Zionist conspiracy arising out of Jewish influence in Searchlight, along with all the usual anti-semitic kind of crap again implying links between those people and the security services. Thoroughly despicable and anti-semitic.
”One Ken Loach film every 5 years is Marxist perspective is it. The censorship on the news channels is to be ignored. I take it all back, the Bourgeoisie are wonderful!”
You see, your method is so crude that with you everything has to be one thing or another, no concept of dialectics at all. I wasn’t at all saying that the media gave balanced reporting or coverage of ideas. Of course it does not. But, nor can it be classified as being the kind of monolith you present it as being. And the point is that compared with even British society 40 years ago, certainly compared to places like Gaza under Hamas, or Iran under the Mullahs, or China under the Stalinists there IS Free Speech in Britain in its restricted bourgeois sense. In fact, probably in its socialist sense too, because as Trotsky pointed out even under socialism it would be ridiculous to give every individual crackpot who wanted a platform the same right to spread their ideas, as the mass organisations of the working class. WE wouldn’t insist to prove our credentials for example that David Icke be given the same air time as the main Workers party, or the same number of column inches in the society’s press.
But, that right to freedom of speech that is enshrined in law, if not implemented fully in practice has been won by the lives and struggle of millions of workers and democrats over centuries, and I think it ill behoves you to demean their struggle. Without it, today we would both be facing being thrown into gaol for sedition.
”You examples of leftist demands probably highlight the utopian nature of the demands in the current circumstances, how we get to the point where workers are ready and fit for a new society god only knows. I suppose the left are trying to work with what they have, however imperfect. What tactically Marx advocated in the 19th century and what he would advocate now seems a pointless argument to me.”
Its not just that they are utopian because the force that might implement them is too weak, it is that the demands themselves – calling on the bourgeois state to act – are themselves reactionary. They tell the workers to place their faith in the bosses state, they give the impression to workers that that state is class neutral. I agree that we can’t take what Marx advocated in the 19th century as necessarily being applicable today. Its necessary to analyse current conditions and test whether such solutions still apply, or even as I suggest is the case, apply even more today than they did then. But, what we DO know is that the bosses state is still a bosses state, and the basic Marxist principle he outlined that you don’t call on that state to do things which it is the task of the workers to do, you don’t give he impression that that state is impartial, are certainly valid today.
”When times are “good” people do not want to hear about a new society for obvious reasons and when times are bad people move to the far right, the left is between a rock and a hard place.”
It depends on the vision of the new society. In fact, there have been plenty of examples of Management Buyouts of companies when times have been good. True that is a small section of the workforce, though often other workers have been able to also buy shares in the company, but the point remains that it is possible during such periods to persuade workers that they have a vested interest in owning and controlling the company they work for. In fact, its better to do it then than as a salvage attempt when a firm is going bust, which is when most firms get turned into Co-operatives – though despite what the statist Left would have you believe even these companies that have been turned into Co-operatives out of failed Capitalist enterprises have a much better record than do private capitalist firms.
Its not that workers can’t be encouraged to take on the vision of a new society, but that the vision the left has presented to them has not been either attractive, or seen to be viable.
I was just wondering what your response was to the news this morning that US imperialism is to give nearly $1 billion in aid to Gaza. Should your friends in Hamas refuse this support from the demon imperialists?
ReplyDeleteBoffy,
ReplyDeleteNo I think the Soviets were following your ideas, they saw the need to rescue Spain from the idiocy of rural life.
I said your views on sanctions, which you said punished the black workers; it’s the exact same argument put forward by the right wings of both the republican and conservative parties.
You said,
“Absolutely, we should be arguing for people to be liberated from what Marx called the idiocy of rural life. Why would any modern human being want to acquiesce in such barbarism????? That is the whole point of struggling for socialism to lift mankind out of that kind of squalour isn’t it?”
“Liberated”, that’s an interesting way to describe it.
So they go straight from being tribesmen, hunting, and fishing communally for their own food straight to advanced communism, do they. No they will be invaded, driven from their home and put to work by capitalism. Then the capitalist will say that they are doing a good thing by rescuing them from barbarity, to justify their own barbarism.
Now this may be inevitable of course but it is the judgemental position of people who live very different lives that I find ridiculous and which you appear to support.
This is a classic Bourgeoisie mindset. Kids who play violins are angelic pure sophisticated little darlings, kids on motorbikes are anti social, devilish low life who should be conscripted.
You may not be an apologist for Zionism but your statement makes you an apologist for imperialism and the kind of process that brought the “Jewish state” into existence. Your statement cannot be read any other way.
I think things like morality, beliefs are more relative than your statement suggests.
Maybe some “modern humans” can relate to the subjugation that these people will suffer and don’t quite see the capitalism in the same wondrous light that you do. Unless by modern human, you were referring to the well to do sections of society.
No, the point of socialism is to get rid of classes and the problems associated with that, there is no guarantee that socialism will eradicate all cultural practices, like drug taking or getting pissed and indulging in loveless sex on a weekend. (But enough about my life!). Engel’s said that are no absolute truths.
You seem to think facts are absolute truths that stand aloof from things; you’d make a good bourgeoisie economist!
It’s not just a question of facts anyway, you both say Paris is the capital of France and you both agree that Paris is a nice city. Equating Hamas with the Nazi’s is not stating a fact. Pointing out that Hamas are using people as human shields is an opinion of fact but that’s the problem, it requires an explanation as to why this happens, something you both fail to do. I could go on.
You said,
“And it has been proven that Iran finances Hezbollah and Hamas,”
This doesn’t mean Hamas are nothing but a front for Iran. This doesn’t make it a “fact”.
Marx was financed by capitalist profits; does this make Marx a front for Bourgeoisie capitalist interests?
I do accept that in the long term your views diverge but in the short term your position puts you far closer to them than most of the left.
You said,
“As Trotsky said, the first duty of a revolutionary is to tell the truth to the workers even when that truth is unpalatable.”
A thorough bastardisation of Trotsky. Your utopian vision of truth telling would be fine if all communities were subjected to the same intense scrutiny, but they are not. This is the message the workers should be getting. Anything else would be thoroughly despicable and anti Muslim. I suspect that this is a result of the black hole of dialectics you inhabit and from which you cannot ever escape.
On freedom of speech, yes you are right that some of the struggles should not be underplayed but I live now and criticise what I see now. Also, some of these victories are coming under threat in the “war against clerical fascists”.
On the “breaking news” of aid, that’s up to the Palestinians, not me. (Maybe Hamas are now a front for the US)
“No I think the Soviets were following your ideas, they saw the need to rescue Spain from the idiocy of rural life.”
ReplyDeleteSorry, this makes no sense to me at all. The Stalinists in Spain saw the fascists as the main enemy just as you see “Imperialism”, “Zionism” as the main enemy, and so jumped into bed with the workers class enemy the Republican bourgeoisie as a “lesser evil” just as you want to jump into bed with the clerical-fascists as a lesser-evil. They suppressed opposition to those bourgeois forces just as you want to suppress criticism of HAMAS and the clerical-fascists. And the consequence of that was as Trotsky warned them, that when the time was right those bourgeois forces followed their class instincts and sided with the fascists, murdering thousands of unprepared workers, to add to the thousands the Stalinists and their allies had already killed to prevent their criticism of those forces. The main difference is that those clerical-fascists you want to ally with are ALREADY murdering workers and socialists.
”I said your views on sanctions, which you said punished the black workers; it’s the exact same argument put forward by the right wings of both the republican and conservative parties.”
Really? The exact same argument you say. Hmm, can you show me where those Republican and Conservative parties are calling for the establishment of a revolutionary Workers Party. I must have missed that conversion they had then to the idea of a Proletarian Revolution. If you could enlighten us as to where and when that happened, I’d be very interested. Oh, that’s right it didn’t happen, did it. Your just lying again.
”You said,
“Absolutely, we should be arguing for people to be liberated from what Marx called the idiocy of rural life. Why would any modern human being want to acquiesce in such barbarism????? That is the whole point of struggling for socialism to lift mankind out of that kind of squalour isn’t it?”
“Liberated”, that’s an interesting way to describe it.”
Isn’t that precisely what socialists aim for the liberation of mankind. Last time I looked that is precisely what Marx describes socialism as being about.
”So they go straight from being tribesmen, hunting, and fishing communally for their own food straight to advanced communism, do they. No they will be invaded, driven from their home and put to work by capitalism. Then the capitalist will say that they are doing a good thing by rescuing them from barbarity, to justify their own barbarism.”
That’s what Capitalism will do yes, but that isn’t what Socialists argue for is it? Insofar as Capitalism does rescue them from the idiocy of rural life, it will as Marx pointed out perform an historically progressive function, but it will do it in a thoroughly brutal and reactionary manner. The task of Marxists is not to demand that those peoples remain in their ignorance and squalor, but to raise them up and to fight for their liberation. Insofar as we do not have a socialist society that COULD help those people go from their current condition through some other process towards Communism such as Engels described, we have to recognise the reality that their path is likely to pass through Capitalism, and our job is to fight for their interests as workers within that process. But Marxists are not Luddites or reactionaries, we are in favour of human progress, our task is to represent the interests of workers in that process of human progress.
”Now this may be inevitable of course but it is the judgemental position of people who live very different lives that I find ridiculous and which you appear to support.”
Of course Marxism is judgemental, we make value judgements of how we want the world to be how we think the laws of human development determine such progress. And within that, of course, we think that socialism is the end goal and that all progress towards it is to be supported or at least not resisted.
”This is a classic Bourgeoisie mindset. Kids who play violins are angelic pure sophisticated little darlings, kids on motorbikes are anti social, devilish low life who should be conscripted.”
What has this got to do with anything, particularly anything I’ve said??????
”You may not be an apologist for Zionism but your statement makes you an apologist for imperialism and the kind of process that brought the “Jewish state” into existence. Your statement cannot be read any other way.”
Which statement???? Where have I apologised for imperialism. More specifically, where have I apologised for the “kind of process that brought the “Jewish state” into existence.” You seem very prone to just throw out these lies and accusations, but every time I’ve asked you to prove just one single accusation, you fail to do so, and just move on to another lie. That is the method of Goebbels not a socialist.
You seem to forget that the reason I was banned from the AWL site was precisely because of my posts attacking their position and that of Al Glotzer that DOES justify the Zionist policy that led to the creation of Israel. In spreading your lies you fail to mention my posts here setting out why I disagree with Glotzer, why I would have opposed the establishment of an Israeli State – reasons actually which are exactly the same as my reasons for opposing your arguments now i.e. that they are based on bourgeois nationalism not proletarian internationalism.
See:
Glotzer and Immigration
Glotzer and the Jews as Special and
Glotzer, Anti-Semitism and the Degenerated Workers State
“I think things like morality, beliefs are more relative than your statement suggests.
Maybe some “modern humans” can relate to the subjugation that these people will suffer and don’t quite see the capitalism in the same wondrous light that you do. Unless by modern human, you were referring to the well to do sections of society.“
Which particular statement. I only see Capitalism as wondrous in the same way that Marx did, i.e. as a powerful revolutionary force compared with what previously existed. What I can’t understand is why compared to that fundamental position of a Marxist you only seem to be interested in advocating pre-capitalist types of society. That seems to me not even to be the politics of people like the SWP, its more like the politics of Pol Pot.
”No, the point of socialism is to get rid of classes and the problems associated with that, there is no guarantee that socialism will eradicate all cultural practices, like drug taking or getting pissed and indulging in loveless sex on a weekend. (But enough about my life!). Engel’s said that are no absolute truths.”
But, that is precisely what liberating mankind means!
”You seem to think facts are absolute truths that stand aloof from things; you’d make a good bourgeoisie economist!”
No, there are no absolute truths, but there are truths with which we can act as though they were absolute when it comes to practical action.
”It’s not just a question of facts anyway, you both say Paris is the capital of France and you both agree that Paris is a nice city.”
Now you are just making it up as you go along. I haven’t anywhere said that Paris is a nice City.
“Equating Hamas with the Nazi’s is not stating a fact.”
I haven’t equated HAMAS with the Nazis, I have compared them to the Nazis. There are clear differences between them.
“Pointing out that Hamas are using people as human shields is an opinion of fact but that’s the problem, it requires an explanation as to why this happens, something you both fail to do. I could go on."
On the contrary, I am quite happy to explain why HAMAS use civilians as human shields. On the one hand its because they are fighting a guerrilla war against overwhelmingly superior odds, and under such conditions a guerrilla group will use whatever tactics give it an advantage. On the other hand that advantage, which is to rely on the reluctance of regular soldiers to fire on civilians, and the ability to mobilise world public opinion against them when they do, also fits in with the clerical-fascist mentality of a group which puts its own political aims and objectives above the interests of the population it is supposedly fighting for.
"You said,
“And it has been proven that Iran finances Hezbollah and Hamas,”
This doesn’t mean Hamas are nothing but a front for Iran. This doesn’t make it a “fact”.
But, I’ve never said that HAMAS is ONLY a front for Iran. Hamas the same as Hezbollah clearly has its own political objections. Both want to establish their own clerical-fascist states, but both will be in part dependent financially, and militarily on Iran if they were established. They will be just as much client states of Iranian expansionism as is Israel of US Imperialism.
”Marx was financed by capitalist profits; does this make Marx a front for Bourgeoisie capitalist interests?”
No, he wasn’t. He was assisted financially by his friend Engels out of his earnings from his family firm. But Marx, lived all of his life in dire poverty, which is one reason that both he, and his family suffered repeated ill-health resulting in a number of his children dying.
”I do accept that in the long term your views diverge but in the short term your position puts you far closer to them than most of the left.”
Another lie. How, where, when. Anyone can just issue unsubstantiated statements as you do. I could call you a child murderer, but it wouldn’t make it true would it. If you can’t back up any of these lies with some evidence – and you never do – you just go on to the next lie, then I’m going to just not bother replying to any of the crap you write.
”You said,
“As Trotsky said, the first duty of a revolutionary is to tell the truth to the workers even when that truth is unpalatable.”
A thorough bastardisation of Trotsky.”
Really? Yet another lie. Tell us what Trotsky actually did say then won’t you?
“Your utopian vision of truth telling would be fine if all communities were subjected to the same intense scrutiny, but they are not. This is the message the workers should be getting. Anything else would be thoroughly despicable and anti Muslim. I suspect that this is a result of the black hole of dialectics you inhabit and from which you cannot ever escape.”
A load of meaningless verbiage. Coming from someone who just repeats one lie after another, who never once provides any evidence to back up their lies, but who just moves on to the next bigger lie you are in no position to speak of a vision of truth utopian or otherwise. You wouldn’t know the truth if it bit you in the arse. You talk about scrutiny but we can’t scrutinise any of your evidence of the truth, because you never provide any just a series of lies one after another. And why in all of this meaningless verbiage do you conclude “Anything else would be thoroughly despicable and anti Muslim”. Why ant-muslim? Why not anti-semitic, anti-worker, anti-gay, anti-woman, anti-bisexual???? I think its you that’s occupying some black-hole.
”On freedom of speech, yes you are right that some of the struggles should not be underplayed but I live now and criticise what I see now. Also, some of these victories are coming under threat in the “war against clerical fascists”.”
Yes, they are, which is why your support for the right of the bourgeois state to restrict the freedom of speech, and freedom of movement is frightening and dangerous. More frightening is the restriction on those freedoms coming from those reactionaries with the fatwas and other threats against people for simply expressing a progressive view.
”On the “breaking news” of aid, that’s up to the Palestinians, not me. (Maybe Hamas are now a front for the US)”
It wouldn’t be the first time they’ve supported a bunch of reactionaries in that way, Saddam Hussein, Bin laden and so on. That’s why your support for such reactionaries has nothing to do with socialist politics.
Boffy,
ReplyDeleteBefore I begin, my comments are statements of opinion, you may say they are ignorant and wrong but you can’t say they are lies. Opinions can’t be lies.
So please bear in mind that the following are my opinions based on what I think is the logic of what you say, though I will try to clarify where I can, been as it has come to that.
Firstly I will summarise what I believe to be the case:
1.It is my OPINION that you and Phillips come into agreement on a number of issues.
2.It is my OPINION that this has more to do with repeating the same facts.
3.It is my OPINION that this agreement on facts is more significant than you infer. –as a result of facts not being absolute but coming with a series of presumptions and prejudices.
4.It is my OPINION that in this context you see facts as absolute truths.
5.It is my Opinion that your idea of facts leads you to come to the wrong conclusion about Trotsky.
6.It is my OPINION that your position is apologising for imperialism.
I will now go on to expand on the above statements of opinion.
Let me begin with “facts”. Facts are not absolute truths; they come loaded with context, a point of view and the prejudices of those that present them. Facts can be manipulated by leaving out certain information; facts can be presented in a way that lends a certain bias to what is being said.
By saying you and Phillips etc are only agreeing on facts; show you see facts as absolute truths.
By not seeing facts as absolute truths I contend that your agreement on these facts is more than you admit to. You both present the information in the same way; you both manipulate the information by leaving out certain points.
Let’s take a quote from your previous comments,
“They suppressed opposition to those bourgeois forces just as you want to suppress criticism of HAMAS and the clerical-fascists.”
Firstly, I didn’t want to suppress criticism of Hamas and this is not what you do, you just throw clichéd insults at them without any substance whatsoever, this is what I have a problem with, especially as it is the classic right wing technique of arguing.
Consider the following article on the Chartist website by New Labour MP, Richard Burden,
“As a member of the House of Commons International Development Committee I recently signed the Report of our Inquiry into The Humanitarian and Development Situation in the occupied Palestinian Territories. One of the conclusions was that the refusal of countries like the UK and USA to even speak to Hamas had been counterproductive both to achieving a sustainable peace between Israel and Palestine and ending the humanitarian catastrophe unfolding in Gaza.
The report did not go down too well in some quarters. According to Melanie Phillips Spectator blog of 24th July, it was based on egregiously false premises including: ‘That Hamas has something we want to talk to them about. Such as? Their aims are as implacable as they are unconscionable. They want to destroy Israel and kill every Jew. Even the more pragmatic among them subscribe to these aims set out in their charter. They do not want to negotiate anything apart from the terms of the surrender of the Jews and the west. It is therefore as obscene and counter-productive to talk to them as it was to talk to Hitler.'
That Ms Phillips has a different interpretation will not lose me too much sleep. But the ill-informed venom of her article suggests to me that she could do worse than pick up a copy of Jerome Gunning's Hamas in Politics*. Historically well researched and drawing on interviews with Hamas figures themselves, Gunning underlines the folly of the simplistic caricatures of Hamas either in Melanie Phillips extreme diatribes or in the more measured but still confused international ban on dialogue which followed Hamas' victory in the 2006 Palestinian Parliamentary elections.
This is not a book that romanticises Hamas. It does not attempt to justify the violence against civilians which the organisation has used, or to ignore the reactionary nature of Hamas ideology over, for example, the position of women in society.
However it does paint a picture of a movement whose character is the product of specific historical circumstances – from the way it grew out of the Muslim Brotherhood in the Middle East, through its espousal of violent resistance to Israel, to its decision to stand for election in internationally supervised Parliamentary elections.
Gunning acknowledges Hamas' ideological attachment to the concept of an Islamic state in all of the historical land of Palestine – including those parts on which Israel stands as well as the occupied territories of the West Bank and Gaza. But Hamas is no Al Qaeda intent on an apocalyptic struggle against the presence of infidels. Neither do the blood-curdling and frankly anti-semitic passages in its founding charter represent the complex reality of what makes Hamas tick.
Hamas is a religious movement but also a nationalist one. Gunning argue that, for Hamas, the commitment to follow what they regard as God's will also carries with it the notion of a social contract. They believe that an Islamic state can only come about if it is willed by the people. So the creation and maintenance of institutions through which popular will can be expressed is central to Hamas's project, along with the principle of accountability of leaders. And, according to Gunning, this is not quasi-soviet one party-statism. The Islamic tradition of consensus building and the imperative for national unity under occupation run deep inside Hamas. Compromise in the national interest is not alien to Hamas thinking. This runs through their suggestions of ceasefires with Israel lasting for generations, to the acceptance by Hamas pragmatists of long-term, peaceful coexistence between an independent Palestine and Israel, even if formal mutual recognition is withheld.
Gunning emphasises that Hamas is not monolithic. Its policies and programmes are susceptible to shifts in Palestinian public opinion. Those shifts could reflect support for a Palestine alongside Israel rather than instead of it, a rejection of suicide bombing or, conversely, support for terrorism as a means of hitting back against the occupation. All of these opinions are there amongst Palestinians living under occupation or as refugees abroad. Sometimes the same Palestinian will hold all these opinions at different times. Hamas is influenced by these things, not because of its religion but because of its political engagement. Hamas has pragmatists and its absolutists. It has a leadership living under occupation and one living in exile. It has political thinkers and military commanders. It is capable of flexibility in making deals that can stick more reliably than those reached by some Palestinian parties favoured by the West. Hamas is also capable of murderous attacks on civilians or – as we saw in Gaza last summer – the ruthless seizure of power by force of arms where it believes it faces an existential threat.
This is all difficult to get your head around from a Western perspective, but it is the reality of Hamas. Gunning's book might help even Melanie Phillips to understand that. “
This is a far more considered critique than anything you have posted and this could easily be directed at you and not Melanie Phillips. It also illustrates my point about presenting the facts in a certain way and how this is more significant than you say.
This agreement with these right wing lowlifes is the reason I point out that you both say Paris is a nice city, rather than just agreeing Paris is the Capital of France. I would have thought having raised the analogy in the first place; this would have been obvious to you.
More quotes from your previous comments,
“On the contrary, I am quite happy to explain why HAMAS use civilians as human shields. On the one hand its because they are fighting a guerrilla war against overwhelmingly superior odds, and under such conditions a guerrilla group will use whatever tactics give it an advantage.”
Well I got you to expand beyond meaningless insults but then you had to spoil it, the Melanie Phillips within you couldn’t help itself…...
“On the other hand that advantage, which is to rely on the reluctance of regular soldiers to fire on civilians, and the ability to mobilise world public opinion against them when they do, also fits in with the clerical-fascist mentality of a group which puts its own political aims and objectives above the interests of the population it is supposedly fighting for.”
Again, unsubstantiated bile, masquerading as fact.
It was previously argued,
“He repeats your argument that Hamas are nothing but a front for Iran and decries them in the same way you do.”
”But, nothing here is to do with tone and logic. It is again a question of facts.”
Then you said,
“But, I’ve never said that HAMAS is ONLY a front for Iran.”
But clearly this is what you said, “A question of facts”. I am glad my Dr Geobbels method is getting you to refine your arguments.
You said,
“I do accept that in the long term your views diverge but in the short term your position puts you far closer to them than most of the left.”
”Another lie. How, where, when.”
In the short term you both agree that spreading Capitalism, i.e. “civilising” or “Liberating” is the best option, once this is achieved then your views diverge. This is a logical argument: I don’t see how you can view this as a lie.
Next, a few reactions on your previous post before I end with why I think you are apologising for imperialism,
On Trotsky you said my comments were,
“A load of meaningless verbiage.”
So you want proof that the right wing press are indulged in a deliberate, orchestrated smear campaign against Muslims. Just read the Daily Mail and the Sun , the evidence is there every single day. Your idea that this comes close to a Trotskyist telling the workers the truth is bullshit of the higest order.
These stories are designed to divide communities and provide ideological justification for their imperialist wars, acknowledging this would be telling workers the truth.
You then said,
“Why ant-muslim? Why not anti-semitic, anti-worker, anti-gay, anti-woman, anti-bisexual???? I think its you that’s occupying some black-hole”
I do see and criticise the right wing press when they are being anti worker etc, I am consistent in this respect. Your point here is meaningless.
A few more comments from you,
“I think things like morality, beliefs are more relative than your statement suggests.”
“Which particular statement.”
Well this one in relation to primitive tribes and the like,
“Why would any modern human being want to acquiesce in such barbarism?????”
This assumes morals; beliefs are absolute and not relative. But modern humans will have different views on this. A billionaire will have a different position to that of a beggar, these things can be relative.
You said,
“your support for the right of the bourgeois state to restrict the freedom of speech, and freedom of movement is frightening and dangerous.”
Where have I said this? This is worse than Dr Geobbels, this is the tactics of Richard Littlejohn.
Finally onto imperialism,
You said,
“You may not be an apologist for Zionism but your statement makes you an apologist for imperialism and the kind of process that brought the “Jewish state” into existence. Your statement cannot be read any other way.”
”Which statement????”
This statement,
“Absolutely, we should be arguing for people to be liberated from what Marx called the idiocy of rural life. Why would any modern human being want to acquiesce in such barbarism?????”
What else could it be saying other than we should argue (your words) for capitalism to liberate these people. How does capitalism do this, imperialism.
This statement could be put on the imperialist banners. If you think this a lie, explain to me how it isn’t saying that.
You also said,
“The task of Marxists is not to demand that those peoples remain in their ignorance and squalor, but to raise them up and to fight for their liberation. Insofar as we do not have a socialist society that COULD help those people go from their current condition through some other process towards Communism such as Engels described, we have to recognise the reality that their path is likely to pass through Capitalism, and our job is to fight for their interests as workers within that process. But Marxists are not Luddites or reactionaries, we are in favour of human progress, our task is to represent the interests of workers in that process of human progress.”
All well and good but this is apologising for imperialism, you may not like it but that is what you are doing. If you had the honesty to say I wouldn’t mind but “out of a sense of shame” you ignore this.
And you said this,
“That’s what Capitalism will do yes, but that isn’t what Socialists argue for is it? Insofar as Capitalism does rescue them from the idiocy of rural life, it will as Marx pointed out perform an historically progressive function, but it will do it in a thoroughly brutal and reactionary manner.”
This is having your cake and eating it. Marx may be right but it’s still apologising for imperialism because of its “historically progressive function”.
If you’d just admit it we could move this argument on to a genuine debate about imperialism in reality. Shake yourself out of this “sense of shame”.
More from you,
“Absolutely, we should be arguing for people to be liberated from what Marx called the idiocy of rural life. Why would any modern human being want to acquiesce in such barbarism????? That is the whole point of struggling for socialism to lift mankind out of that kind of squalour isn’t it?”
“Liberated”, that’s an interesting way to describe it.”
”Isn’t that precisely what socialists aim for the liberation of mankind. Last time I looked that is precisely what Marx describes socialism as being about.”
So when George Bush says he is “liberating” Iraq you must agree that he is.
And when Israel blitz Gaza to free them from clerical fascists this then must for you be “liberation”. Please explain how it can’t be considering your statement above.
And finally you said,
“What I can’t understand is why compared to that fundamental position of a Marxist you only seem to be interested in advocating pre-capitalist types of society. That seems to me not even to be the politics of people like the SWP, its more like the politics of Pol Pot.”
No, its saying you don’t have to bomb the shit out of people/rule over them to bring about progress, especially in this modern age where communication and information are more widely available to people. It’s saying that imperialism in this modern era, far from aiding this progress, actually sets it back.
That’s why your support for it has nothing to do with socialist politics.
“Before I begin, my comments are statements of opinion, you may say they are ignorant and wrong but you can’t say they are lies. Opinions can’t be lies.”
ReplyDeleteI had no intention of suing you for libel. The comments you made were not stated as opinions but statements of fact. “You were saying, “You agree with…”, not “In my opinion you agree with…” But, it really doesn’t matter if you preface your comment with “In my opinion…”, if you then go on to make a statement, which you fail to make any attempt to substantiate. What I objected to in your comments was precisely that, you used the Stalinist tactic of the amalgam, basically saying You say A, X also says A, so you agree about B. All you have shown is agreement on A not B, and you then failed to give any evidence whatsoever of agreement about B, which you couldn’t do because there was none!
”So please bear in mind that the following are my opinions based on what I think is the logic of what you say, though I will try to clarify where I can, been as it has come to that.”
But, the point is that in all of the instances you have previously raised there is no need to state what your opinion of the logic of what I say is, precisely because it is not a matter of conjecture. In all of those instances I have actually made statements which flatly contradict the conclusion you believe I should be led to, and have shown that the conclusion I reach is based on a logical argument, which flows from a different political perspective from those with whom you want to connect me.
”Let me begin with “facts”. Facts are not absolute truths; they come loaded with context, a point of view and the prejudices of those that present them. Facts can be manipulated by leaving out certain information; facts can be presented in a way that lends a certain bias to what is being said.”
Of course, facts cannot be taken on their own. Of course there is a context, and that context will be determined for each person by the political perspective they have. That is precisely, why a Zionist can take the fact that Hamas are clerical-fascists and arrive at a certain set of conclusions from that, whereas I arrive at a totally different set of conclusions. That doesn’t change the basic fact that Hamas are clerical-fascists does it?
The real question here is do you agree that Hamas are clerical-fascists? If not why do you conclude that they are not? If you agree that they are then by your logic here doesn’t that put you in exactly the same box that you want to put me and Phillips????
So, let’s look. The question of whether Hamas receives money from Iran to a degree is irrelevant, but there is lots of evidence that it does as well as weapons etc. That would put it in the category of those organisations described by Lenin in the Theses on the National and Colonial Question.
“second, the need for a struggle against the clergy and other influential reactionary and medieval elements in backward countries;
third, the need to combat Pan-Islamism and similar trends, which strive to combine the liberation movement against European and American imperialism with an attempt to strengthen the positions of the khans, landowners, mullahs, etc”
In another of his documents in relation to the National Question Lenin says bluntly that where an organisation is acting as the agent of some foreign government then such organisations cannot be supported.
But, as I said, this is not the main point. The fact, is that Hamas, like the Iranian regime is an enemy of the working class. It abhors socialists, it attacks Trade Unionists and socialists, it opposes not just socialist freedoms but even the limited bourgeois freedoms of free speech and so on, it is a reactionary force that attacks even the basic bourgeois rights and freedoms of women and gay people, of non-believers and so on. And that is not something that is a figment of the imagination of the western bourgeois media that is the voice of Palestinian socialists, trade unionists, women and LGBT people who say that. Now, how can any Marxist take all of those FACTS, and not describe Hamas for what it is, a clerical-fascist organisation.
Before, we go any further you should really tell us how you as a socialist can take THOSE facts, and conclude that HAMAS is anything else!!! And as I say, if you can’t conclude its anything else then doesn’t that put you in the same box as me and Phillips????
”By saying you and Phillips etc are only agreeing on facts; show you see facts as absolute truths.”
No it doesn’t, because I have never just simply stated that this or that is a fact. I have always located that fact within its specificity. That is what, Trotsky also did. He described as a FACT, what the Brazilian regime was – it was fascist – but he located it within its specificity, a fascist government in a backward country, and partly explained by that backwardness and oppression. On that basis support for Brazil against Britain, despite its fascist government. But, that didn’t stop Trotsky stating the fact of that Government being fascist, didn’t mean he gave any POLITICAL support to that fascist regime. In so far as HAMAS conducts a military campaign within Palestine to defend Palestinians again Israeli incursions I support Hamas, purely on a MILITARY basis, but that does not commit me to POLITICAL support for them, does not mean I have to suppress my POLITICAL criticism of them. Nor does it commit me to support other actions by HAMAS, which have nothing to do with defence of Palestinians against such incursions, such as rocket attacks on Israeli civilians.
”By not seeing facts as absolute truths I contend that your agreement on these facts is more than you admit to. You both present the information in the same way; you both manipulate the information by leaving out certain points.”
Contend what you like, what would be nice once in a while would be if you contended less, and provided facts and evidence more. I do NOT present the information in the same way that Phillips does. I present the evidence within the context of my support for the Palestinian people in their struggle against oppression from the Israeli state. She does not. That disproves your contention right from the beginning.
”Let’s take a quote from your previous comments,
“They suppressed opposition to those bourgeois forces just as you want to suppress criticism of HAMAS and the clerical-fascists.”
Firstly, I didn’t want to suppress criticism of Hamas and this is not what you do, you just throw clichéd insults at them without any substance whatsoever, this is what I have a problem with, especially as it is the classic right wing technique of arguing.”
Nonsense that is precisely what you do, and indeed you are doing it here. I DO NOT “just throw clichéd insults” at Hamas or the other clerical fascists. I describe them for what they are, and that is not based on some ignorant assessment, or simply taking at face value the reports of the bourgeois media, but the result of listening to the words of Palestinians, of workers, women, LGBT people and so on. It is the result of listening to the words of Iranian socialists and Trade Unionists who as we speak are being locked up, physically assaulted and so on by that regime. By dismissing the words and experiences of those Palestinians, Iranians and so on in order to remain blind to the real nature of those regimes and organisations, by decrying people like me who do listen to the words of my class brothers and sisters and not to their enemies in those regimes, what you do is to precisely suppress such criticism of those organisations and regimes. It is exactly what the Stalinists did in China in the 1920’s and in Spain in the 1930’s!!!!
”Consider the following article on the Chartist website by New Labour MP, Richard Burden”
Okay, let’s take what he says, and look at it from the perspective of a Marxist rather than that of a bourgeois politician concerned with British diplomatic relations.
”It does not attempt to justify the violence against civilians which the organisation has used, or to ignore the reactionary nature of Hamas ideology over, for example, the position of women in society.”
Now a bourgeois politician such as Burden concerned to promote the interests of Britain overseas may not be concerned with the rights of women, particularly Palestinian women, but a socialist can’t take that position can they? Certainly not a Marxist. So the question here is do you agree with the bourgeois Burden and his concern for British interests and diplomacy, or are you concerned for the rights of Palestinian women? As a Marxist I have no difficulty making that choice!
”However it does paint a picture of a movement whose character is the product of specific historical circumstances – from the way it grew out of the Muslim Brotherhood”
Itself a reactionary clerical-fascist organisation
”through its espousal of violent resistance to Israel,
Which I would support militarily in so far as it defends Palestinians again Israeli incursions, but not the politics of HAMAS.
” to its decision to stand for election in internationally supervised Parliamentary elections. “
Which it then nullified by launching a Civil War and Coup to remove any political opposition from Fatah, and establish a totalitarian proto State.
”Gunning acknowledges Hamas' ideological attachment to the concept of an Islamic state in all of the historical land of Palestine – including those parts on which Israel stands as well as the occupied territories of the West Bank and Gaza. But Hamas is no Al Qaeda intent on an apocalyptic struggle against the presence of infidels.
Only because it lacks the forces against a much more powerful state! There is no difference in terms of the fanaticism of its homocide bombers, and the tactic of launching rockets into Israel is designed not just to kill Israeli civilians, but to provoke an Israeli response like the last one, which it hopes will somehow provoke other Arab States into a wider conflict with Israel! Such a strategy has nothing to do with a proletarian internationalist strategy. On the contrary it is itself thoroughly reactionary, and divisive of the working class in the region, designed not to further the interest of workers in the Middle East, but to further the interests or reactionary Arab nationalism. And show me where Phillips shows any such sympathy for the interests of Middle Eastern workers or a perspective of socialist revolution before you equate that statement with her.
Of course, Burden isn’t interested in that because he’s only interested in what Britain’s diplomatic interests are, not in the proletarian revolution in the Middle East. It is, in fact, only a difference of strategy between him and Phillips as to which bourgeois force – Hamas or Israel – is best placed to further Britain’s interest.
”Neither do the blood-curdling and frankly anti-semitic passages in its founding charter represent the complex reality of what makes Hamas tick.”
Maybe not, but its continuing actins show that it is an anti-semitic organisation, which as the above stated is committed to wiping Israel off the map, which could only be done via a genocidal war.
”Hamas is a religious movement but also a nationalist one.”
Precisely, two of the fundamental requirements of clerical-fascism, and a signal to any Marxist that you should be wary of the reactionary politics of such an organisation.
”Gunning argue that, for Hamas, the commitment to follow what they regard as God's will also carries with it the notion of a social contract. They believe that an Islamic state can only come about if it is willed by the people. So the creation and maintenance of institutions through which popular will can be expressed is central to Hamas's project, along with the principle of accountability of leaders. And, according to Gunning, this is not quasi-soviet one party-statism. The Islamic tradition of consensus building and the imperative for national unity under occupation run deep inside Hamas.
I’m guessing that either he’s delusional or that he wrote this before Hamas launched a Civil War against Fatah, through hundreds of Fatah militants off the top of buildings in Gaza to execute them, and then set up a totalitarian, one-party proto-state!!!!!!
”Compromise in the national interest is not alien to Hamas thinking.”
See above!
”This runs through their suggestions of ceasefires with Israel lasting for generations”
Except they as much as Israel have continually broken ceasfires after usually just weeks let alone years, and never mind generations!!!
”to the acceptance by Hamas pragmatists of long-term, peaceful coexistence between an independent Palestine and Israel, even if formal mutual recognition is withheld.”
I watched a recent interview on TV with someone from Hamas, and their position was clear. They do not want a two-state solution – even though the majority of Palestinians do. If such a state is set up, they will use it as merely a staging post to launch more significant attacks on Israel in order to achieve their goal of a single Islamic State on the whole of Palestine and Israel.
”Gunning emphasises that Hamas is not monolithic. Its policies and programmes are susceptible to shifts in Palestinian public opinion. Those shifts could reflect support for a Palestine alongside Israel rather than instead of it, a rejection of suicide bombing or, conversely, support for terrorism as a means of hitting back against the occupation. All of these opinions are there amongst Palestinians living under occupation or as refugees abroad.”
No totalitarian organisation is monolithic, and hey all to some extent appeal to populism. That’s why they resort frequently to the plebiscite, but anyone that has witnessed the establishment of a totalitarian state in Gaza, the removal of political opposition can take this very seriously.
”Hamas is also capable of murderous attacks on civilians or – as we saw in Gaza last summer – the ruthless seizure of power by force of arms where it believes it faces an existential threat.”
Which for a socialist let alone a Marxist is not an insignificant fact is it????
”This is a far more considered critique than anything you have posted and this could easily be directed at you and not Melanie Phillips. It also illustrates my point about presenting the facts in a certain way and how this is more significant than you say.”
No it couldn’t, because the question here is not how you view Hamas as a British politician concerned with how Britain should relate diplomatically to it, which is what concerns both Burden and Phillips, but how does a socialist a Marxist relate to it. There is nothing in Gunning’s analysis here that in fact I have not taken on board in previous analysis. I have accepted that the condition of the Palestinians is one of the factors which leads to the establishment of such organisations, and to an extent their politics. Similar factors led to the Nazis in Germany. But, the point for a Marxist is not whether we understand the reasons why such organisations arise, and even why they can become a leading force in a national struggle – to a degree nationalist forces are always likely in the first instance to hold such a position compared to the internationalist forces – but how to relate to such struggles in a way that does not give political support to them, and how to split the masses away from them
”This agreement with these right wing lowlifes is the reason I point out that you both say Paris is a nice city, rather than just agreeing Paris is the Capital of France. I would have thought having raised the analogy in the first place; this would have been obvious to you.”
What Agreement for fuck’s sake??????????? You have given us a long quote from a bourgeois politician concerned not with how Marxists struggle for a proletarian solution to the problems of the Middle East, but with Britain’s diplomatic relations and interests, quotes from a book, which in part confirm the analysis of Hamas I have given, and part have been shown to have been incredibly naïve by the actions of Hamas in the last couple of years in launching its Civil War against Fatah and establishing a totalitarian proto state.
And having done all that where is the Comment from me that agrees with PHILLIPS or any of these other reactionaries. Just one quote where I agree with their POLITICAL conclusions. Not one. Call what you say OPINIONS if you like, but when you say “This agreement with these right-wing low-lifes” an agreement you have given not one single comment to support I can again describe your statement for what it is a downright lie!!!! Now repudiate your lie, or provide the evidence. Show me where I agree with the political conclusions of these right-wing scum, or shut the fuck up.
“On the contrary, I am quite happy to explain why HAMAS use civilians as human shields. On the one hand its because they are fighting a guerrilla war against overwhelmingly superior odds, and under such conditions a guerrilla group will use whatever tactics give it an advantage.”
”Well I got you to expand beyond meaningless insults but then you had to spoil it, the Melanie Phillips within you couldn’t help itself…...”
Hold on would you like to tell us whether you agree with that assessment? Doesn’t that statement in itself SEPARATE me from Phillips? Would Phillips ever make such a statement? Could she given HER politics compared to MINE?
“On the other hand that advantage, which is to rely on the reluctance of regular soldiers to fire on civilians, and the ability to mobilise world public opinion against them when they do, also fits in with the clerical-fascist mentality of a group which puts its own political aims and objectives above the interests of the population it is supposedly fighting for.”
”Again, unsubstantiated bile, masquerading as fact.”
Coming from someone who for the last few weeks has simply piled one bigger lie on top of every other lie they’ve previously espoused, who has yet to provide one single word of proof for anything they say, I’d say that comment was a bit rich wouldn’t you????? But, its not unsubstantiated. This is a group which uses kids as homocide bombers, promising them that they will go to heaven as their reward, where a bunch of virgins will be waiting for them. Am idea which in itself shows just what role they see for women in their society. Nothing more than human fucking machines. This is an organisation that carried out a Civil War against its fellow Palestinians in order to secure unchallenged political power for itself, which executed Fatah militants by throwing them off the top of buildings – again not western bourgeois propaganda, but testimony of Palestinians themselves in Gaza – this is an organisation that through its totalitarian state apparatus oppresses ordinary Palestinian workers, women and LGBT people etc. I’d say that was pretty substantiated. Now would you like to try providing some substantiation for any of the lies you have perpetrated for the last few weeks?
”It was previously argued,
“He repeats your argument that Hamas are nothing but a front for Iran and decries them in the same way you do.”
”But, nothing here is to do with tone and logic. It is again a question of facts.”
”Then you said,
“But, I’ve never said that HAMAS is ONLY a front for Iran.”
”But clearly this is what you said, “A question of facts”. I am glad my Dr Geobbels method is getting you to refine your arguments.”
But, this is precisely the kind of semantics and manipulation that is characteristic of Goebbels. The first statement you quoted WAS a statement of facts, whereas you were accusing me not just of agreements over facts, but agreement on “Tone and logic”. Nothing I said in that first statement committed me to saying that those facts as you presented them were facts I entirely agreed with!!! All I was saying was that they were statements of facts not statements that showed agreement in tone or logic. And they weren’t. And, the second statement is also true. The fact, that I have said that Hamas receives support from Iran, and that it acts as a proxy for Iran, does not commit me to saying that it is nothing else, that it doesn’t pursue its own interests, any more than me saying that Israel gets support from the US, acts as ITS proxy commits me to saying that Israel is nothing else, does not have its own interests etc.
”You said,”
“I do accept that in the long term your views diverge but in the short term your position puts you far closer to them than most of the left.”
No I think you’ll find that it was you that said that! To which I said,
”Another lie. How, where, when.”
”In the short term you both agree that spreading Capitalism, i.e. “civilising” or “Liberating” is the best option,”
Do I fuck!!!!! Where ever have I argued for spreading Capitalism. Go on just one comment!!!!! Jesus H. Christ, I thought you’d come out with some lies before now, but this tops all of them. I am a socialist a Marxist, I oppose Capitalism, I am in favour of proletarian revolution. If Capitalism is established in some part of the world that has pre-capitalist production relations then like Lenin I will not oppose it in the name of retaining those previous productive relations, because in so far as it replaces them it acts progressively, and it creates the only force capable of bringing about socialism – the modern working class. My role as a Marxist is not to defend what is archaic and reactionary, but to argue for what is revolutionary and progressive, so in such a development I will argue at all times for the interests of the working class, for its rapid organisation into Trade Unions, Co-operatives and a Workers Party, precisely in order to move as rapidly as possible from Capitalism to Socialism. Were there any socialist states in existence then the task would be to try to enable where possible people in such states to move straight away to a post-capitalist society without having to go through the stage of Capitalism. But there aren’t and so we can’t do that.
”once this is achieved then your views diverge. This is a logical argument: I don’t see how you can view this as a lie.”
Because as I’ve just shown it is a lie!!!!
Next, a few reactions on your previous post before I end with why I think you are apologising for imperialism,
”On Trotsky you said my comments were,”
“A load of meaningless verbiage.”
”So you want proof that the right wing press are indulged in a deliberate, orchestrated smear campaign against Muslims.”
No, what does that have to do with Trotsky for fuck’s sake? Of course I don’t want you to prove the bourgeois press is racist and spreads fake stories about Muslims. We all take that as read don’t we????
That has nothing to do with what Trotsky said, which was that the first duty of a Marxist is to tell the truth to the workers. Now the fact that the bourgeois press tell lies has nothing to do with the fact that there are things about Islam, about political Islam, and about particular activities within Muslim communities that Marxists have a duty to tell the truth about.
“Just read the Daily Mail and the Sun , the evidence is there every single day. Your idea that this comes close to a Trotskyist telling the workers the truth is bullshit of the highest order.”
Bloody hell I thought the last lie was the biggest possible. Now you come out with an even bigger lie. Do you have no shame or socialist principle at all??????? Now you want to tie me not with Melanie Phillips, but to the Sun. Now you want to tell the lie that I say the Sun and so on tell the truth!!!!!!!! Again, I ask just one comment where I have said that the Sun or any other of these rags tell the truth, go on just one!!!!! Are you incapable of telling the truth from the fiction you continually make up? Have you got so used to lying that you can’t tell the difference any more?
”These stories are designed to divide communities and provide ideological justification for their imperialist wars, acknowledging this would be telling workers the truth.”
Yes, of course they are and it’s a socialists duty to expose them. But, those same papers, or at least some of them, did the same thing in their descriptions of Hitler when they wanted to justify WWII. But, the job of a Marxist wasn’t to respond to those stories by saying, “Oh no, Hitler’s a nice man really, a really good egg, who loves children and animals”. On the contrary, the job of a Marxist was to say, yes Hitler is a fascist, a thorough reactionary, he is no friend of the working class, he acts as the agent of the Germany capitalists. But, then they would go on, but that is no reason for us to go from there to support Hitler’s enemies, because they too, the British bosses are also our enemies, in fact they are our immediate enemies. In other words the job of a Marxist is not to shy away from stating the truth as you do, but to reveal the truth to announce it loudly, and to propose the appropriate course of action from it.
You then said,
“Why ant-muslim? Why not anti-semitic, anti-worker, anti-gay, anti-woman, anti-bisexual???? I think its you that’s occupying some black-hole”
”I do see and criticise the right wing press when they are being anti worker etc, I am consistent in this respect. Your point here is meaningless.”
No you don’t, and your comment here was typical.
“I think things like morality, beliefs are more relative than your statement suggests.”
“Which particular statement.”
”Well this one in relation to primitive tribes and the like,
“Why would any modern human being want to acquiesce in such barbarism?????”
”This assumes morals; beliefs are absolute and not relative. But modern humans will have different views on this. A billionaire will have a different position to that of a beggar, these things can be relative.”
Complete bullshit. You do not have to apply any moral standard to the fact that human history has been one of progress based on improvement of the productive relations. Indeed, that is a fundamental tenet of Marxism. And the statement that beliefs are absolute not relative is deeply anti-Marxist, as well as palpably untrue. Just look at the disappearance of Roman and Greek Gods for a start. In fact, Engels in Anti-Duhring shows from a Marxist, materialist perspective exactly why that is. How could you have written today, he says stories about Zeus throwing Lightning bolts when Man has himself tamed, and produced electricity for his own use, how could you have stories of Thor’s hammer, when Man has created the steam hammer than slams down with more force than a thousand Thor’s could produce, what need of an Odyssey, when modern (for then) steam ships can take Man all over the globe. And the morals of a Roman slave society cannot possibly be those of a modern bourgeois democracy. I’d recommend you read the work of the American Black Marxist sociologist Oliver Cromwell Cox, “Class, Caste and Race”. He gives a compelling account of how racism develops in bourgeois society, precisely because that society unlike all previous forms of society is based on the idea of Equality. You don’y have to justify subjugated some foreign people if the basis of your society is rank and status, as it was under feudalism, or slave society, precisely because the underlying morals and beliefs of the society accept inequality. Its only bourgeois society that creates the ideology and the morality of equality, and its for that reason that you have to invent the idea that those you subjugate are in some way inferior.
”You said,
“your support for the right of the bourgeois state to restrict the freedom of speech, and freedom of movement is frightening and dangerous.”
”Where have I said this? This is worse than Dr Geobbels, this is the tactics of Richard Littlejohn.”
When you implicitly gave your support to the British state refusing the right of free speech and movement to Wilders, and when subsequently you defended that position by saying that there was no free speech under Capitalism anyway.
”You said,
“You may not be an apologist for Zionism but your statement makes you an apologist for imperialism and the kind of process that brought the “Jewish state” into existence. Your statement cannot be read any other way.”
Again no, I think you’ll find that it was you that said that.
”Which statement????”
”This statement,
“Absolutely, we should be arguing for people to be liberated from what Marx called the idiocy of rural life. Why would any modern human being want to acquiesce in such barbarism?????”
Where does this say anything about me supporting the creation of Israel for fuck’s sake??????????
”What else could it be saying other than we should argue (your words) for capitalism to liberate these people.”
Hmm. Well there it is. The statement is in black and white isn’t it. I can’t repudiate it can I. In fact, perhaps as penance I should repeat it.
“Absolutely, we should be arguing for people to be liberated from what Marx called the idiocy of rural life. Why would any modern human being want to acquiesce in such barbarism?????”
Oh, but hold on a minute, where in this statement actually is that word CAPITALISM you say I stated - ”(your words) for capitalism to liberate these people”.
Well, what do you know I actually didn’t use those words did I, its just that you were lying yet again. I think you ought to get some treatment for it, because now you are lying with alacrity in such an obvious fashion that even you must be embarrassed by it.
” What else could it be saying…”
Well, given that I’m a Marxist it could mean what Marx, and Engels and Lenin, and Trotsky and every other Marxist has meant when they have used that phrase. It could mean what I along with them meant it to say, that the working class struggles to emancipate itself, that Mankind in general struggles to free itself from the conditions which limit its growth and development. I thought that it was unnecessary to put that down because its such a basic element of Marxist thought. But then, as I’ve said you are no Marxist, not even any kind of socialist I’d recognise.
”How does capitalism do this, imperialism.
This statement could be put on the imperialist banners. If you think this a lie, explain to me how it isn’t saying that.”
I just have!
”You also said,
“The task of Marxists is not to demand that those peoples remain in their ignorance and squalor, but to raise them up and to fight for their liberation. Insofar as we do not have a socialist society that COULD help those people go from their current condition through some other process towards Communism such as Engels described, we have to recognise the reality that their path is likely to pass through Capitalism, and our job is to fight for their interests as workers within that process. But Marxists are not Luddites or reactionaries, we are in favour of human progress, our task is to represent the interests of workers in that process of human progress.”
”All well and good but this is apologising for imperialism, you may not like it but that is what you are doing. If you had the honesty to say I wouldn’t mind but “out of a sense of shame” you ignore this.
No its not. When Marx set out how British Imperialism had acted progressively by getting rid of the village production in India, got rid of the caste system, had introduced Capitalist production and created a working class he wasn’t writing any kind of apology for Capitalism for Christ’s sake. He was setting down an historical fact. In doing all those things it had acted progressively. If those things hadn’t happened then the Indians would have remained mired in those old dead end forms of production, no working class would have been created, and the possibility of Socialism would not have existed. But, he didn’t argue in favour of Capitalism doing that, and even as he set out that progressive role, he condemned in the harshest terms the way British Colonialism went about it. When Lenin wrote, “The development of Capitalism in Russia”, which sets out the progressive role that Capitalism – including all those huge amounts of foreign imperialist Capital invested in Russia – was playing he wasn’t being an apologist for Capitalism or Imperialism, he was stating a fact. In bringing about such development Capitalism was freeing millions of Russian peasants from the idiocy of rural life, raising their wages, increasing their cultural level etc. Most importantly, it was creating the force which 30 years later would overthrow that very Capitalism, an event which would not have happened without it!!!
”And you said this,”
“That’s what Capitalism will do yes, but that isn’t what Socialists argue for is it? Insofar as Capitalism does rescue them from the idiocy of rural life, it will as Marx pointed out perform an historically progressive function, but it will do it in a thoroughly brutal and reactionary manner.”
”This is having your cake and eating it.”
No its, not its telling the truth, something you clearly have a problem with.
”Marx may be right but it’s still apologising for imperialism because of its “historically progressive function”.
Its not apologising for anything, when you tell the truth. My God, you really have a problem with the truth don’t you. I suppose when you tell so many lies as you do that’s no wonder!
”If you’d just admit it we could move this argument on to a genuine debate about imperialism in reality. Shake yourself out of this “sense of shame”.
I’m a Marxist. I’ll stay on the ground of Marx, Engels, Lenin and Trotsky, thank you. I’ll leave you to the lack of shame you have in telling lie after lie.
“Absolutely, we should be arguing for people to be liberated from what Marx called the idiocy of rural life. Why would any modern human being want to acquiesce in such barbarism????? That is the whole point of struggling for socialism to lift mankind out of that kind of squalor isn’t it?”
“Liberated”, that’s an interesting way to describe it.”
”Isn’t that precisely what socialists aim for the liberation of mankind. Last time I looked that is precisely what Marx describes socialism as being about.”
”So when George Bush says he is “liberating” Iraq you must agree that he is.”
Must I? Would you like to give us a reason why I must, why that has anything to do with any of the statements above about a struggle for socialism? Last time I looked George Bush wasn’t a socialist!!!!! Oh, that’s right its just another of your lies. And as I opposed the invasion of Iraq, as there are literally hundreds of blog postings by me on various websites over the last 6 years not only opposing that invasion, but calling for the working class to chuck the imperialist forces out of Iraq, it not only shows your lie to be what it is – a lie – but shows it to be a pretty stupid lie for you to use. But, then I’m sorry to say that I am coming to the conclusion that not only are you an inveterate liar, but you are a pretty stupid person too.
”And when Israel blitz Gaza to free them from clerical fascists this then must for you be “liberation”. Please explain how it can’t be considering your statement above.”
Firstly, because my statements were about struggling for socialism, and last time I looked Israel was not a socialist state, and in any case you don’t liberate people by killing them, and secondly Israel’s attacks on Gaza have nothing to do with liberating the Palestinians from the clerical-fascists of Hamas, in fact the two organisations have a symbiotic relationship with one another as the recent elections have shown. Finally, last time I checked the economy in Gaza such as it is, is already a Capitalist economy not a feudal economy so there is not even any question of any imperialist intervention even having the revolutionising effect of transforming productive relations.
So, when you say I “must” come to the conclusion you want to attribute to me then what is that again? That’s right, its another lie.
”And finally you said,
“What I can’t understand is why compared to that fundamental position of a Marxist you only seem to be interested in advocating pre-capitalist types of society. That seems to me not even to be the politics of people like the SWP, its more like the politics of Pol Pot.”
”No, its saying you don’t have to bomb the shit out of people/rule over them to bring about progress, especially in this modern age where communication and information are more widely available to people. It’s saying that imperialism in this modern era, far from aiding this progress, actually sets it back.”
You don’t have to do that, and a socialist society in trying to help such people liberate themselves from their conditions wouldn’t do so. But, again you show your complete lack of understanding of basic Marxist principles by your comments. Capitalism/imperialism doesn’t bring about such modernisation out of the goodness of its heart. It does so, because it wants to maximise profits, wants to secure sources of raw materials etc. And its given THOSE facts that it resorts to bombing the shit out people etc. where it needs to to secure that objective. Marxists, obviously oppose such actions. I oppose those actions. But, in fact, if you look at the reality of the last 50 years, rather than your vision of a world still mired in Colonialism, the reality is that those kinds of actions have in fact not been characteristic of the way imperialism has operated, certainly even less so in the last 30 years.
The reality is that in a whole string of instances, from Korea, to Taiwan, to Singapore, Malaysia, Brazil, Argentina, and elsewhere, imperialism HAS developed economies by the kind of methods you describe without the need to inflict either political domination or force on these countries. In fact, where force has been used it has largely been the domestic bourgeoisie rather than imperialism, which has been the culprit. With the adoption of “peaceful co-existence” by the USSR, and a long period during which imperialism could see that in action, with Stalinist Parties holding back workers struggles, bourgeois-democratic revolutions spread throughout many parts of the world, not only replacing former colonial rule, but establishing bourgeois-democratic as opposed to Bonapartist or militaristic regimes. That meant that capitalist development was able to proceed pretty much along the same basis and within that same bourgeois-democratic framework that it has done in developed societies. It is only where that bourgeois-democratic framework broke down, or through which the interests of Capitalism/imperialism were seriously challenged that a resort to violent intervention has been used, for example in Chile. Even now, when the interests of foreign capitalists are being challenged in Venezuela, imperialism has not – at least yet – resorted to such measures.
”That’s why your support for it has nothing to do with socialist politics.”
Another sentence so it has to be another lie. Your like the joke about “I know when he’s lying, his lips move.” No substantiation, no proof, just lie after lie, after lie getting bigger, more ridiculous with each one. It’s a pity you don’t use your real name, then at least workers would know to avoid you like the plague.
Boffy,
ReplyDeleteFirst thing to note, when I say “you said”, I mean you quoted from your previous comments (including my comments) I don’t have the ability to blacken your comments. Again, this would seem obvious.
Anyway you said,
“Lenin says bluntly that where an organisation is acting as the agent of some foreign government then such organisations cannot be supported.”
This assumes Hamas are acting as an agent for Iran, I think this can be disputed. They would certainly argue that they are the “legitimate” defenders of the Palestinian people. If a socialist country were to fund socialist movements in foreign countries, would we say they are an agent for this country, so we must oppose them?
you said,
“Finally, last time I checked the economy in Gaza such as it is, is already a Capitalist economy not a feudal economy so there is not even any question of any imperialist intervention even having the revolutionising effect of transforming productive relations.”
Fair point. But surely if Hamas were victorious you would see this as a step back and in need of liberation, would you not? Wouldn’t this be part of Lenin’s need to combat pan-Islamism.
“In so far as HAMAS conducts a military campaign within Palestine to defend Palestinians again Israeli incursions I support Hamas, purely on a MILITARY basis”
Even though this restricts the Palestinians to fight in the camps to which they have been squeezed by the “civilisers”, this I accept does set you apart from Phillips.
Some more “facts” from you about Hamas,
“I describe them for what they are, and that is not based on some ignorant assessment, or simply taking at face value the reports of the bourgeois media, but the result of listening to the words of Palestinians, of workers, women, LGBT people and so on.”
“This is an organisation that carried out a Civil War against its fellow Palestinians in order to secure unchallenged political power for itself, which executed Fatah militants by throwing them off the top of buildings”
Fair enough but it’s hardly a considered opinion.
At least ask why Hamas came to have such power and why Fatah lost the support of the population.
At least admit that abuses were committed by both sides in what was a civil war.
At least ask why this civil war did not take place until Fatah lost power.
Would Marx and Engels really have described this situation in such a one sided way, I don’ think so.
You are back to your Melanie Phillips position here.
The Burden article was to highlight how you can present facts in certain ways to promote a certain view. The fact you and Phillips describe Hamas in a very similar way and in a similar context, tells me that this is not just some ”telling the truth” coincidence.
You said,
“I am a socialist a Marxist, I oppose Capitalism, I am in favour of proletarian revolution. If Capitalism is established in some part of the world that has pre-capitalist production relations then like Lenin I will not oppose it in the name of retaining those previous productive relations, because in so far as it replaces them it acts progressively, and it creates the only force capable of bringing about socialism – the modern working class.”
In your terms isn’t it acting “progressively” by taking on clerical fascists and Lenin’s pan-Islamism. Isn’t that the logic of your argument, even if you can’t bring yourself to face it?
You said,
“My role as a Marxist is not to defend what is archaic and reactionary, but to argue for what is revolutionary and progressive,”
So why are you not supporting the west in its war against Clerical fascism?
Again from you,
“Were there any socialist states in existence then the task would be to try to enable where possible people in such states to move straight away to a post-capitalist society without having to go through the stage of Capitalism. But there aren’t and so we can’t do that.”
No shit Sherlock. This surely means in the absence of socialism you must make do with supporting capitalism in its civilising mission, as this is an inevitable process of capitalism.
Where did you read about this grooming issue and why was it presented it in a way to damn that community. This is how the Sun and Mail present the “facts”, no meaningful context whatsoever.
When the fascists were presenting the “facts” about the Jews in the run up to the Holocaust, would your position have been, “That Hitler guy does have a point”.
More from your previous post,
”I do see and criticise the right wing press when they are being anti worker etc, I am consistent in this respect. Your point here is meaningless.”
”No you don’t, and your comment here was typical”
How the hell do you know I don’t? You use complete guess work to try and knock a totally valid argument. These are the tactics of mystic Meg.
More from your previous post,
”This assumes morals; beliefs are absolute and not relative. But modern humans will have different views on this. A billionaire will have a different position to that of a beggar, these things can be relative.”
”Complete bullshit. You do not have to apply any moral standard to the fact that human history has been one of progress based on improvement of the productive relations. Indeed, that is a fundamental tenet of Marxism. And the statement that beliefs are absolute not relative is deeply anti-Marxist, as well as palpably untrue.”
I said these things CAN be relative if you look again. Your example of Lightning bolts is a ridiculous analogy in this case. Anyway what does any of this have to do with the proposition that different people can form different opinions depending on their position in society; this is why we have political parties, isn’t it?
You said,
“When you implicitly gave your support to the British state refusing the right of free speech and movement to Wilders, and when subsequently you defended that position by saying that there was no free speech under Capitalism anyway.”
Oh I implicitly gave support did I? Which really means you have no evidence.
From your previous comments,
“Absolutely, we should be arguing for people to be liberated from what Marx called the idiocy of rural life. Why would any modern human being want to acquiesce in such barbarism?????”
”Oh, but hold on a minute, where in this statement actually is that word CAPITALISM you say I stated - ”(your words) for capitalism to liberate these people”.
”Well, what do you know I actually didn’t use those words did I, its just that you were lying yet again. I think you ought to get some treatment for it, because now you are lying with alacrity in such an obvious fashion that even you must be embarrassed by it.”
Are you living in some parallel world where world socialism has sprung up from capitalism, if not then what the fuck could that mean other than going through capitalism. This isn’t lying; it’s the logical conclusion from what you are saying. The fact that you can’t see this makes me feel it is you who should be embarrassed.
Again from you,
“No its not. When Marx set out how British Imperialism had acted progressively by getting rid of the village production in India, got rid of the caste system,”
Got rid of the caste system, see your rose tinted view of imperialism shines through yet again!!!!
Poor old Marx, with friends like you, who needs enemies!
You said,
“When Lenin wrote, “The development of Capitalism in Russia”, which sets out the progressive role that Capitalism – including all those huge amounts of foreign imperialist Capital invested in Russia – was playing he wasn’t being an apologist for Capitalism or Imperialism, he was stating a fact. In bringing about such development Capitalism was freeing millions of Russian peasants from the idiocy of rural life, raising their wages, increasing their cultural level etc. Most importantly, it was creating the force which 30 years later would overthrow that very Capitalism, an event which would not have happened without it!!!”
Is that the event that made Marx look like an apostle of totalitarianism?
Anyway, yes this capital did progress Russia, just like the atom bombs progressed Japan and the massacres in the colonies civilised them.
From your previous comment,
“That’s what Capitalism will do yes, but that isn’t what Socialists argue for is it? Insofar as Capitalism does rescue them from the idiocy of rural life, it will as Marx pointed out perform an historically progressive function, but it will do it in a thoroughly brutal and reactionary manner.”
”This is having your cake and eating it.”
”No its, not its telling the truth, something you clearly have a problem with.”
So you laud something for civilising then immediately point out the barbarity of it, this is having your cake, smearing it over Saffron Burrows and licking it up. Why don’t you just stick to lauding it and say this came with inevitable violent consequences.
I think lauding something and pointing out it’s barbarity in the same sentence is the best example of apologising you could find.
More from you,
“Must I? Would you like to give us a reason why I must, why that has anything to do with any of the statements above about a struggle for socialism? Last time I looked George Bush wasn’t a socialist!!!!!”
Nor were the British who “liberated” India but you have no problem pointing out their historic achievements, even exaggerating them. Future Marxists like you will see George Bush as a great liberator of the Middle East from clerical fascism.
The fact you opposed the invasion of Iraq shows how confused your position is, you want to laud capitalism for its civilising mission but then want to find fault when it actually gets involved in the process of doing it.
Again from you,
“Firstly, because my statements were about struggling for socialism, and last time I looked Israel was not a socialist state, and in any case you don’t liberate people by killing them”
Britain was not a socialist state when “liberating” India; this is not the pre condition you set, so your argument here is thoroughly confused, no schizophrenic. Britain killed many in India when “liberating” them from the idiocy of rural life, that’s why Marx mentioned the barbarism. The “civilising” mission of capitalism has been an orgy of killing. You must be reading the Janet and John book of imperialism.
So to sum up, you argue for capitalism’s civilising mission as you yourself testify but when the harsh reality of what this entails comes to fruition you oppose it.
Some inspiration for the workers you are.
”I don’t have the ability to blacken your comments.”
ReplyDeleteJust use the html tags. For instance use “” at the beginning and “” at the end of a section you want in bold, and do the same for italics but using I instead of b.
Anyway you said,
“Lenin says bluntly that where an organisation is acting as the agent of some foreign government then such organisations cannot be supported.”
”This assumes Hamas are acting as an agent for Iran, I think this can be disputed. They would certainly argue that they are the “legitimate” defenders of the Palestinian people. If a socialist country were to fund socialist movements in foreign countries, would we say they are an agent for this country, so we must oppose them?”
As I said, I don’t think this is a crucial element, but to deal with your point. There is lots of evidence, and not just from bourgeois sources that Hamas DOES act as a proxy for Iran. That doesn’t preclude it being a Palestinian defence force against Israeli attacks. The two things actually go together. As for “socialist” governments, it would obviously depend. The USSR used to fund such movements in various countries, but because the programme of the USSR was one of National Socialism, all of its actions were determined in the final analysis by what was in the interets of building “Socialism in One Country”. That is why its actions in a number of other countries were reactionary geared not to the interests of the workers and masses of that country, but to the interests of the USSR. The Communist Parties in those other countries became nothing more than Border Guards for the USSR rather than revolutionaries for their own class. That was the case in Spain in the 1930’s. It was the case in most Allied countries in WWII after the USSR became one of those Allies. So yes, under those conditions we would oppose them, and warn workers against trusting them.
”you said,”
“Finally, last time I checked the economy in Gaza such as it is, is already a Capitalist economy not a feudal economy so there is not even any question of any imperialist intervention even having the revolutionising effect of transforming productive relations.”
”Fair point. But surely if Hamas were victorious you would see this as a step back and in need of liberation, would you not? Wouldn’t this be part of Lenin’s need to combat pan-Islamism.
It wouldn’t be a step back to a feudal economy would it? It would be a step back in terms of the political regime, but Marxists are not subjectivists, we do not determine our attitude to a state by its political regime, but by its class character, and that is determined by who is the ruling class, what are the economic and social relations, what is the mode of production. It would be necessary for Marxists not to be looking to carrying through a bourgeois revolution to overthrow pre-capitalist productive relations, but to be carrying through a socialist revolution. They would oppose themselves to the political regime on that basis, fighting even for basic bourgeois democratic freedoms where they were lacking, but doing so by proletarian means in the way Trotsky advocated in the Action Programme for France in the mid 1930’s against the threat of Fascism. That is they would build Factory Committees, Peasant Committees, Workers Militia and so on to defend the interests of the workers against the fascists, and would put forward a programme not just for basic bourgeois democratic freedoms such as a Constituent Assembly, freedom of speech, and so on, but would integrate that programme with a programme of socialist demands.
“In so far as HAMAS conducts a military campaign within Palestine to defend Palestinians again Israeli incursions I support Hamas, purely on a MILITARY basis”
”Even though this restricts the Palestinians to fight in the camps to which they have been squeezed by the “civilisers”, this I accept does set you apart from Phillips.”
Well I’m glad you accept that at least. But, your statement suggests a concept in which the struggle is not just to win for the Palestinians a struggle against oppression, but an acceptance of the goals of Hamas for the overthrow of the State of Israel and he establishment of a Palestinian State on its territory. That is a reactionary goal, because it necessarily means encouraging a division of the working class setting Palestinian against Jewish workers. The fundamental task of Marxists is rather to deal with the question of the oppression of Palestinians, and to do so in a way that furthers the interests of the working class. Dividing two working classes by encouraging conflict between them can never do that. Moreover, the majority of Palestinians themselves do not support such a perspective. In poll after poll, large majorities of Palestinians have said they support a Two State solution. It is only Hamas, and the western Jew haters who keep pressing for the destruction of Israel.
“I describe them for what they are, and that is not based on some ignorant assessment, or simply taking at face value the reports of the bourgeois media, but the result of listening to the words of Palestinians, of workers, women, LGBT people and so on.”
“This is an organisation that carried out a Civil War against its fellow Palestinians in order to secure unchallenged political power for itself, which executed Fatah militants by throwing them off the top of buildings”
”Fair enough but it’s hardly a considered opinion.”
Yes, it is a considered opinion, its based on an analysis of the facts.
”At least ask why Hamas came to have such power and why Fatah lost the support of the population.”
Its irrelevant, I’m not advocating support for Fatah as opposed to Hamas, I’m arguing for the development of a socialist, working class alternative to both! We know why Fatah lost power. Because it is a bureaucratic, bourgeois-nationalist organisation that was thoroughly corrupt and self-serving. It could provide no solutions for the Palestinian workers. That’s precisely my point. Its necessary to build a working class alternative to both Hamas and Fatah, an alternative that will give a socialist solution to the Palestinian workers. Your support for Hamas and the clerical-fascists is the complete opposite of that, the complete opposite of what a socialist should be doing, and arguing for!
”At least admit that abuses were committed by both sides in what was a civil war.
At least ask why this civil war did not take place until Fatah lost power.”
Of course they were, I’m not arguing for support for Fatah. Why is it that you can only present things as an either or, especially when that either or means telling workers they can only choose to support this reactionary bourgeois force, or this other reactionary bourgeois force. Why can’t you see that the job of a socialist is to advise workers to say a plague on both their houses, and instead argue for a workers alternative to them? Its actually your politics in that regard which is analogous to that of Phillips and Co. you only want workers to have a choice between bourgeois alternatives.
”Would Marx and Engels really have described this situation in such a one sided way, I don’ think so.”
They certainly wouldn’t have been advising workers to back Hamas, that’s for sure. The point is not were Fatah as bad as Hamas, that is not a question socialists should be particularly concerned about. The question is what does the actions of Hamas, and its relation to the working class, and society in general tell us about ITS politics. And the reality is that its actions tell us that this is a clerical-fascist organisation that is hostile not only to the working class, socialists and the Labour Movement, but that it even hostile to some of the basic ideas of bourgeois democracy without which working class struggle is made near to impossible, for example, freedom of assembly,, movement and speech, a Constituent Assembly and so on.
”You are back to your Melanie Phillips position here.”
No as I’ve just shown its your refusal to give workers choices other than reactionary bourgeois choices that puts you in that camp.
”The Burden article was to highlight how you can present facts in certain ways to promote a certain view.”
Absolutely, which is why I have never just presented facts, but have gone on from those facts to present an analysis, and program of action. Nowhere, at no time have you yet given even the hint of proof that the program I have outlined for resolving the problems of the Palestinians, and of the workers in the Middle East has anything remotely similar in it to anything Phillips and co have said at any time. You just keep lying about that without any shred of evidence.
”The fact you and Phillips describe Hamas in a very similar way and in a similar context, tells me that this is not just some ”telling the truth” coincidence.”
Once again the lying, Stalinist amalgam. I’ve heard a number of paedophiles describe Israel in the way you have, so that makes you a paedophile does it? Its no coincidence that you and these paedophiles describe Israel that way, its not just a “telling the truth coincidence” is it? I’ve heard Nazis describe Jews the way you do. That’s no coincidence either is it? You’re a Nazi, you told us before of your sympathy for the BNP, and its potential for leading strikes. So, that makes you now a paedophile, a Nazi, what other vile lie could we tell about you by linking you to some obscene group by comparing the way you describe Israel and Jews to the way they do? No doubt no end. But, then I’m a Marxist and have no desire to sink down into the gutter where you and your kind reside.
“I am a socialist a Marxist, I oppose Capitalism, I am in favour of proletarian revolution. If Capitalism is established in some part of the world that has pre-capitalist production relations then like Lenin I will not oppose it in the name of retaining those previous productive relations, because in so far as it replaces them it acts progressively, and it creates the only force capable of bringing about socialism – the modern working class.”
”In your terms isn’t it acting “progressively” by taking on clerical fascists and Lenin’s pan-Islamism. Isn’t that the logic of your argument, even if you can’t bring yourself to face it?”
Its certainly progressive for the working class, for socialists to be doing that, which is why Lenin advocated it. I’m sorry you have abandoned socialism, if you ever embraced it, which I doubt, and instead are content for workers to be oppressed by reactionary capitalist regimes, or even pre-capitalist regimes.
“My role as a Marxist is not to defend what is archaic and reactionary, but to argue for what is revolutionary and progressive,”
”So why are you not supporting the west in its war against Clerical fascism?”
For the same reason Marxists didn’t support imperialist democracies against fascist imperialism in Germany!!!! For goodness sake this is less than the ABC of Marxism, it’s the Marxism you should have embraced in the womb. Oh that’s right your not a Marxist or a socialist. Again, you line yourself up with Phillips and the other reactionaries who only want workers to be able to choose between tow capitalist evils. These are not statements of facts you agree with Phillips on, but more importantly points of political strategy and principle. Both of you reject the idea of working class independence of working class struggle, and want to simply line the workers up to be slaughtered behind one group of bourgeois reactionaries or another. She chooses the imperialist reactionaries, you choose the clerical-fascist reactionaries, but you both share the same politics.
“Were there any socialist states in existence then the task would be to try to enable where possible people in such states to move straight away to a post-capitalist society without having to go through the stage of Capitalism. But there aren’t and so we can’t do that.”
”No shit Sherlock. This surely means in the absence of socialism you must make do with supporting capitalism in its civilising mission, as this is an inevitable process of capitalism.”
No it doesn’t, and have you have no reason to make that statement, because you have already quoted earlier my statement which contradicts you. I’ll repeat that quote to prove it,
“I am a socialist a Marxist, I oppose Capitalism, I am in favour of proletarian revolution. If Capitalism is established in some part of the world that has pre-capitalist production relations then like Lenin I will not oppose it in the name of retaining those previous productive relations, because in so far as it replaces them it acts progressively, and it creates the only force capable of bringing about socialism – the modern working class.”
“My role as a Marxist is not to defend what is archaic and reactionary, but to argue for what is revolutionary and progressive,”
I went on to say,
”so in such a development I will argue at all times for the interests of the working class, for its rapid organisation into Trade Unions, Co-operatives and a Workers Party, precisely in order to move as rapidly as possible from Capitalism to Socialism.”
So there was no reason once again for you to lie about my position or to make any assumptions about it was there?
”Where did you read about this grooming issue and why was it presented it in a way to damn that community. This is how the Sun and Mail present the “facts”, no meaningful context whatsoever.”
In the long-standing anti-fascist magazine “Searchlight”, and it was based not on some bourgeois reporting, but on the experiences of the local anti-fascist group in Bradford, who felt that the situation was such that it could not be simply dismissed or swept under the carpet. Of course, the SWP members who simply parachuted into the area weren’t bothered about that, they were only interested in trying to pick up some more SWP members.
”When the fascists were presenting the “facts” about the Jews in the run up to the Holocaust, would your position have been, “That Hitler guy does have a point”.”
No, but if local anti-fascists had well documented evidence of activities by Jews, which were reactionary, and which facilitated the Nazis being able to win over people as a result I would not have been in favour of simply sweeping those facts under the carpet. I would have been concerned to deal with that situation so that the Nazis were not able to benefit from it.
”I do see and criticise the right wing press when they are being anti worker etc, I am consistent in this respect. Your point here is meaningless.”
”No you don’t, and your comment here was typical”
”How the hell do you know I don’t? You use complete guess work to try and knock a totally valid argument. These are the tactics of mystic Meg.”
They are the tactics you have used throughout your comments here. I thought I’d see how you liked it being used back on you. The difference is that in none of your comments here have you adopted that approach, and your comment which only referred to Muslims WAS typical of your approach. Nowhere in anything you have said have you shown any interest in furthering the interests of the working class, of elaborating any kind of working class programme. Instead you stand on the ground of Melanie Phillips who also has no concern for the working class, and only wants to allow workers to choose between reactionary bourgeois alternatives.
”This assumes morals; beliefs are absolute and not relative. But modern humans will have different views on this. A billionaire will have a different position to that of a beggar, these things can be relative.”
”Complete bullshit. You do not have to apply any moral standard to the fact that human history has been one of progress based on improvement of the productive relations. Indeed, that is a fundamental tenet of Marxism. And the statement that beliefs are absolute not relative is deeply anti-Marxist, as well as palpably untrue.”
”I said these things CAN be relative if you look again. Your example of Lightning bolts is a ridiculous analogy in this case. Anyway what does any of this have to do with the proposition that different people can form different opinions depending on their position in society; this is why we have political parties, isn’t it?”
Come on really, your statement begins “; beliefs are absolute and not relative.” So which is it, the statement you have here or your statement that they can be relative??????
“When you implicitly gave your support to the British state refusing the right of free speech and movement to Wilders, and when subsequently you defended that position by saying that there was no free speech under Capitalism anyway.”
”Oh I implicitly gave support did I? Which really means you have no evidence.”
A hell of a lot more evidence than you have given to substantiate anything you have ever said!!!!! And the evidence is there for all to see. You said, “You must have been saddened that Geert Wilders was not allowed to enlighten us on the dangers of clerical fascism.” That latest attempt at a smear could only be taken as meaning that you whilst you thought I should be saddened that a reactionary was prevented from coming into the country, you on the other hand thought it was a good thing. If not, then perhaps you could enlighten us.
I will put it to you to answer.
You must have been saddened that Geert Wilders was not allowed into Britain. Is that your position or is it not?
“Absolutely, we should be arguing for people to be liberated from what Marx called the idiocy of rural life. Why would any modern human being want to acquiesce in such barbarism?????”
”Oh, but hold on a minute, where in this statement actually is that word CAPITALISM you say I stated - ”(your words) for capitalism to liberate these people”.
”Well, what do you know I actually didn’t use those words did I, its just that you were lying yet again. I think you ought to get some treatment for it, because now you are lying with alacrity in such an obvious fashion that even you must be embarrassed by it.”
”Are you living in some parallel world where world socialism has sprung up from capitalism, if not then what the fuck could that mean other than going through capitalism. This isn’t lying; it’s the logical conclusion from what you are saying. The fact that you can’t see this makes me feel it is you who should be embarrassed.
No, its not. Saying, in the absence of socialism, the likelihood of some countries being developed, as a result of Capitalism, in one form or another, is high, is not at all the same thing as arguing FOR Capitalism to go and invade those countries, turn them into Colonies and so on, is it? Nowhere have I, Marx, Lenin or any other Marxist argued in favour of Imperialism or Colonialism as a means of bringing about such development. What we all do do, is to recognise that such things are likely, in the absence of socialism, and that our task is not to oppose such things, in the name of some reactionary defence of pre-capitalist society, but is rather to OPPOSE, the reactionary means by which such change is brought about, to COUNTERPOSE the interests of workers and peasants to those of the Capitalists and Landlords within that process of development, and thereby to utilise the progressive elements of such development in order to bring about its demise, and the creation of socialism. Again this is basic Marxism.
“No its not. When Marx set out how British Imperialism had acted progressively by getting rid of the village production in India, got rid of the caste system,”
”Got rid of the caste system, see your rose tinted view of imperialism shines through yet again!!!!”
The caste system rests on a mode of production in which control of the means of production is the deciding factor, and is manifested through the State ownership of the means of production, and the control of the State by a hereditary bureaucracy or dynasty. That is replicated throughout society down to the individual village and commune in such societies. By destroying the economic roots of such a society, by destroying the control of the means of production on the basis of such dynastic rule, the basis of the caste system is removed, and is replaced with class relations. The caste system remains in India, but is not the deciding or characteristic form of ownership of the means of production or exploitation. In India as elsewhere the struggle is now not a caste struggle, which can be none other than a dead end, but is a class struggle. Again this is basic Marxism.
”Poor old Marx, with friends like you, who needs enemies!”
Rather than making comments like this I’d suggest you read his works.
“When Lenin wrote, “The development of Capitalism in Russia”, which sets out the progressive role that Capitalism – including all those huge amounts of foreign imperialist Capital invested in Russia – was playing he wasn’t being an apologist for Capitalism or Imperialism, he was stating a fact. In bringing about such development Capitalism was freeing millions of Russian peasants from the idiocy of rural life, raising their wages, increasing their cultural level etc. Most importantly, it was creating the force which 30 years later would overthrow that very Capitalism, an event which would not have happened without it!!!”
”Is that the event that made Marx look like an apostle of totalitarianism?”
That sounds like an attempt to avoid answering the point at issue. Its not a matter of diverting on to a discussion of the nature of the Russian Revolution, but a matter that without that development there would have been no Russian proletariat, and so no possibility of socialism.
”Anyway, yes this capital did progress Russia, just like the atom bombs progressed Japan and the massacres in the colonies civilised them.”
Normally, I have considerable tolerance for socialists here and elsewhere who have differing views from my own. I’m happy to discuss in a calm and rational manner, but its obvious that such an approach is not possible with you. Not only are you an inveterate liar as all your previous posts have demonstrated, not only do you repeatedly resort to the Stalinist tactic of the amalgam in order to smear me without any slight piece of evidence to back up your lies, but I’m sorry to have to put it like this – YOU ARE A REACTIONARY MORON.
Have you not read anything of the history of Russia? So we can see what your politics are. You would have preferred the Russian peasants to remain as serfs tied to the Tsarist Landlords, you would have been happy for Russia to be mired in medieavalism with people like Rasputin running around raping and murdering and spreading all kinds of crap into the minds of the masses, not to mention the official church spreading even more crap in their minds, you would have been happy with the rule of the Tsar to continue, with the regular whipping of soldiers and peasants who were treated as being sub-human. All of that would to you have been preferable to the toxic nuclear waste land, in which peasants began to be able to escape such dire conditions in the countryside to work in large modern factories and earn wages that their previous lifestyle could not have comprehended, to enjoy at least a modicum of civilisation in the growing towns and cities as opposed to the drudgery of their lives as beasts of burden in the countryside under the yoke of an oppressive Landlord class.
Yep, you truly are a rotten reactionary, you truly are a moron.
”So you laud something for civilising then immediately point out the barbarity of it, this is having your cake, smearing it over Saffron Burrows and licking it up. Why don’t you just stick to lauding it and say this came with inevitable violent consequences.
I think lauding something and pointing out it’s barbarity in the same sentence is the best example of apologising you could find.”
The whole basis of dialectics is that everything is contradictory that it contains within itself both progressive and reactionary sides. If you want to put it as, “Why don’t you just stick to lauding it and say this came with inevitable violent consequences.” I’m happy with that formulation. That is an accurate description of how mankind has developed and progressed. Had there been no slave society there would have been no civilisation, without civilisation, no science no art, no development of the productive forces. Without science, art, and the development of the productive forces eventually no Capitalism, and with no Capitalism, no working class. With no science, art, culture, development of the productive forces, and working class there would be no possibility of Socialism, and no future for mankind. Instead, we’d be where you’d prefer us to be half starving, living in animal skins, even more ignorant than yoa rea today, barely separated from the animals, and with no future.
“Must I? Would you like to give us a reason why I must, why that has anything to do with any of the statements above about a struggle for socialism? Last time I looked George Bush wasn’t a socialist!!!!!”
Nor were the British who “liberated” India but you have no problem pointing out their historic achievements, even exaggerating them. Future Marxists like you will see George Bush as a great liberator of the Middle East from clerical fascism.
But you have yet to show where I argued that Britain SHOULD have invaded India, or anywhere else for that matter. It’s a completely different matter to argue that Britain did something and the consequences were historically progressive, and saying Britain SHOULD do this. Why? Because, I’m a socialist, and my task is to argue for socialism not Capitalism. I’m not going to advise the Capitalists what they SHOULD do. And in any case knowing in advance that alongside those progressive consequences of such action goes inevitably the reactionary means by which those progressive results are achieved, I have no intention whatsoever of calling for those reactionary means to be used, especially as I shall be on the side of those OPPOSING those reactionary means!
On the Middle East, you again confuse political superstructures with the economic and social i.e. the class base of societies. A progressive transformation is only possible if that class base of the society is achieved, that is if the society is thereby enabled to transform the way it produces on to a historically higher level. All of the Middle East is already Capitalist, so the only progressive transformation that could be accomplished would be a transformation to socialist relations of production. The last time I looked George Bush had no such intention, so his actions could not be described as progressive now or in the future by any Marxist.
”The fact you opposed the invasion of Iraq shows how confused your position is, you want to laud capitalism for its civilising mission but then want to find fault when it actually gets involved in the process of doing it.”
But, as I’ve just said, Iraq already WAS a Capitalist society so no such mission was possible for the US or anyone else.
“Firstly, because my statements were about struggling for socialism, and last time I looked Israel was not a socialist state, and in any case you don’t liberate people by killing them”
”Britain was not a socialist state when “liberating” India; this is not the pre condition you set, so your argument here is thoroughly confused, no schizophrenic.”
No its you that is a moron and doesn’t understand Marxist politics. Palestine is Capitalist, so is Israel. No transformation that Israel could bring about in Palestine could be progressive because they were both at the same stage of development i.e. both were Capitalist. Britain was Capitalist India was not it was pre-capitalist. By transforming its economic and social relations and introducing Capitalism that transformation was PROGRESSIVE. But, Marxists would not argue for Capitalism to engage upon such actions, precisely because it inevitably entailed a reactionary means of bringing that transformation about. But, an Indian Marxist would not say, no stop we don’t want Capitalism, we want to remain tied to an arhaic mode of production, we want to remain prisoners of a caste system, they would say Capitalism offers us a way out of our current situation, it offers us the potential of higher living standards, of access to education and culture, we should welcome that opportunity, and we should form Trade Unions to ensure that we are able to take it, we should form Co-operative so that we can develop the means of production ourselves rather than be exploited by Capitalists, and we should create our own Workers Party to fight for our political rights, including fighting to remove the British occupation, which denies those political rights to us.
”Britain killed many in India when “liberating” them from the idiocy of rural life, that’s why Marx mentioned the barbarism. The “civilising” mission of capitalism has been an orgy of killing. You must be reading the Janet and John book of imperialism.”
Where have I denied the barbarism, where have I argued in favour of Imperialism or Colonialism undertaking such actions? I haven’t, and once again you lie when you suggest I have. A lie, which is made all the worse when I have repeatedly explained and declared that I have made no such call, when I have shown to you that I have opposed such actions by Imperialism today, for example in Iraq. Yet, the fact, remains that Marx declared that Capitalism in revolutionising the method of production had been a tremendously progressive force, declared that despite all the barbarism in transforming the mode of production in India and elsewhere that it too had been progressive. That didn’t in any shape or form commit him or me to arguing for Colonialism.
”So to sum up, you argue for capitalism’s civilising mission as you yourself testify but when the harsh reality of what this entails comes to fruition you oppose it.
Oppose the civilising mission of Capital, no not at all. Marx coined the phrase to describe the fact that Capitalism is forced to continually expand the range and number of Use Values sold to workers, and thereby to continually raise their standard of living and culture – hence the civilising mission. It would be stupid of any Marxist, indeed any socialist to oppose such an improvement in the standard of living of workers. Indeed, as Marx said that Civilising Mission, raising up the standard of the workers education and culture, their general well-being, was a precondition for them creating socialism.
Nor insofar as Capitalism carries out such a function in transforming pre-capitalist societies do Marxists have any desire to prevent such a favourable development. The only have an interest in opposing any reactionary means of bringing about such a development, and of fighting for the interests of workers within that process, the sooner to be able to move beyond it towards socialism.
Now your level of insults really has gone beyond the pale.
ReplyDeleteMy moronic questioning has made me better understand your position concerning current events.
I will narrow this argument to those areas that I am still unsure about your position or that I need to defend myself.
Now you said,
“But, your statement suggests a concept in which the struggle is not just to win for the Palestinians a struggle against oppression, but an acceptance of the goals of Hamas for the overthrow of the State of Israel and he establishment of a Palestinian State on its territory.”
I am glad you said suggest because that is not what I meant, I meant to say that it seems ludicrous to me to criticise people firing on other people who have taken their land and oppress them daily. And restrict support to that limited level, the Palestinians and not just Hamas have always fought this battle outside where it lives.
You said,
“I’m not advocating support for Fatah as opposed to Hamas,”
Well my moronic questioning cleared that up, because that is how it came across.
From you,
“And the reality is that its actions tell us that this is a clerical-fascist organisation that is hostile not only to the working class, socialists and the Labour Movement, but that it even hostile to some of the basic ideas of bourgeois democracy without which working class struggle is made near to impossible, for example, freedom of assembly,, movement and speech, a Constituent Assembly and so on.”
Fair enough but Israel also imposes these restrictions on the Palestinians and they are a bourgeois “democracy” are they not?
“I’ve heard Nazis describe Jews the way you do.”
Ok give me examples of how I have described Jews in this way? As for the paedophile remark, that is stupid. The relevant point would be is the paedophile right wing or left wing. It’s the fact that Phillips is right wing that matters, not that she is a woman or is bi sexual or whatever, this really is a very silly thing to say.(I am sure paedophiles hold many differing views).
It was previously argued,
So why are you not supporting the west in its war against Clerical fascism?”
”For the same reason Marxists didn’t support imperialist democracies against fascist imperialism in Germany!!!! For goodness sake this is less than the ABC of Marxism, it’s the Marxism you should have embraced in the womb. Oh that’s right your not a Marxist or a socialist. Again, you line yourself up with Phillips and the other reactionaries who only want workers to be able to choose between tow capitalist evils.”
I am asking YOU why you support the west; I haven’t said I do this. Now you have explained and I understand but for Christ sake, stop taking one of my questions about you and extending it to mean my position must be the question I am asking.
Again it was argued,
“so in such a development I will argue at all times for the interests of the working class, for its rapid organisation into Trade Unions, Co-operatives and a Workers Party, precisely in order to move as rapidly as possible from Capitalism to Socialism.”
”So there was no reason once again for you to lie about my position or to make any assumptions about it was there?”
Ok I have grasped that where capitalism comes into conflict with itself you take a “neutral position” but not everywhere in the world is capitalist, so if a non capitalist community came into conflict with a capitalist one then surely you must support the civilising capitalist, no matter what tactics they employ?
You said,
“I will put it to you to answer.”
”You must have been saddened that Geert Wilders was not allowed into Britain. Is that your position or is it not?”
No I was not saddened but how this can mean I support the ban I don’t know.
I said,
“Anyway, yes this capital did progress Russia, just like the atom bombs progressed Japan and the massacres in the colonies civilised them.”
I made this point to highlight the fact that civilising hasn’t all been about foreign investment. I thought the example you gave was one of the less violent methods. But you extend this to mean that I wish Russia had stayed a peasant country.
From your previous comment,
I said,
“Why don’t you just stick to lauding it and say this came with inevitable violent consequences.”
you first said,
"I’m happy with that formulation.
That is an accurate description of how mankind has developed and progressed. Had there been no slave society there would have been no civilisation, without civilisation, no science no art, no development of the productive forces. Without science, art, and the development of the productive forces eventually no Capitalism, and with no Capitalism, no working class. With no science, art, culture, development of the productive forces, and working class there would be no possibility of Socialism, and no future for mankind. Instead, we’d be where you’d prefer us to be half starving, living in animal skins, even more ignorant than yoa rea today, barely separated from the animals, and with no future."
Then you said,
“But you have yet to show where I argued that Britain SHOULD have invaded India, or anywhere else for that matter. It’s a completely different matter to argue that Britain did something and the consequences were historically progressive, and saying Britain SHOULD do this. Why? Because, I’m a socialist, and my task is to argue for socialism not Capitalism. I’m not going to advise the Capitalists what they SHOULD do.”
Haven’t you made that argument in the first quote, didn’t Britain by invading India save it from a barbaric lifestyle. Again if capitalism came into conflict with a tribe in the jungle wouldn’t you think people who supported the tribesmen were reactionary? And wouldn’t you be prevented from criticising the capitalist if they massacred those tribesmen because you would not advise capitalism what they should do?
“But, Marxists would not argue for Capitalism to engage upon such actions, precisely because it inevitably entailed a reactionary means of bringing that transformation about.”
But you previously said that you would NOT advise capitalism what to do; now you saying you would want them to do it in a certain way. Maybe it’s because I’m a moron, but this seems contradictory.
“Where have I denied the barbarism, where have I argued in favour of Imperialism or Colonialism undertaking such actions?”
But you said that you would not advise capitalism how it undertook its civilising mission. I would actually argue that this mission inevitably involves violence anyway. My logic is that you imply support. Maybe my logic is wrong but it is not a deliberate lie.
“Yet, the fact, remains that Marx declared that Capitalism in revolutionising the method of production had been a tremendously progressive force, declared that despite all the barbarism in transforming the mode of production in India and elsewhere that it too had been progressive. That didn’t in any shape or form commit him or me to arguing for Colonialism”
I actually think it does commit you, this is my opinion, I am in no way trying to lie, I genuinely believe it does.
Finally, re the Trotsky “telling the truth” debate,
I think you underplay the anti Muslim sentiment that is out there among the working class, I see a need to combat this.
Your idea of truth telling seems to assume workers will take these truths and process them in a rational way and come up with some kind of balanced position, I believe this is incorrect, these truths will be filtered by the general prejudices that exist to come up with a position that feeds this prejudice. Your idea seems to assume the Pol Pot idea that we are all a blank page just waiting to be written on.
The immediate problem, I believe, is how we change these prejudicial attitudes and not feed this prejudice.
”Now your level of insults really has gone beyond the pale.
ReplyDeleteMy moronic questioning has made me better understand your position concerning current events.”
Okay, look I apologise for losing my temper, but from Day One, you have taken a very hostile attitude in your posts. You have accused me of being an apologist for Imperialism, for Zionism, of having the same politics as vile right-wingers, you have accused me of having positions, which any casual reading of my blogs here – let alone elsewhere – would show not only that I do not hold, but have actually argued forcefully against, and so on. I have absolutely no problem with people taking issue with what I actually say, and doing so in a robust manner, provided they do so in a comradely manner, and that they actually attack what I have said, not what they want to attribute to me as saying, and that in that spirit they actually provide some reason or argument for doing so, not just denunciatory statements.
I have absolutely no problem with people NOT understanding things. Indeed, my position is precisely that the Left is sectarian in its relation to workers because it demands that they here and now conform to its preconceived ideas about how workers should be, and denounces or stands aside from them when they don’t. My position is precisely that of Marx that it is our task to take workers as we find them, work with them, and thereby raise their level. But, it has seemed to me that on the one hand you have wanted to claim – look its not my fault if I don’t understand – and on the other to present yourself as being the repository of Marxist correctness putting me right. You can’t have it both ways. It seems to me that on several occasions its not that you don’t understand, but that you have refused to understand.
Some months ago, I was guilty of exactly the same thing. I took comments by one comrade, and extrapolated from them to accuse them of something else. But, when they then assured me that that was not their position, I immediately apologised. Unfortunately, the person seemed to just want to use it to perpetuate the argument and said that I should have read all their posts to know what their position was. That was ridiculous because it was not their blog, and the posts ran into hundreds. That’s not the case here. My views can be easily seen by viewing all my blogs or searching on particular topics.
One of the reasons I lost my temper is that for the last couple of weeks alongside replying to you I have been replying to very long diatribes by a BNP supporter on another comrades blog. I have to say that your comments, and method of arguing were indistinguishable from his. You both start from what I can only describe as a bigoted view, and frame all discussion around that view shutting out anything that challenges it. That is not the Marxist method, or even a basic scientific method.
Having said, all that from having cursorily looked at your latest post I was glad that it did seem to have a more conciliatory tone, and did appear to have more reasoned positions. I will, therefore, respond to it accordingly.
I will narrow this argument to those areas that I am still unsure about your position or that I need to defend myself.
”Now you said,
“But, your statement suggests a concept in which the struggle is not just to win for the Palestinians a struggle against oppression, but an acceptance of the goals of Hamas for the overthrow of the State of Israel and he establishment of a Palestinian State on its territory.”
”I am glad you said suggest because that is not what I meant, I meant to say that it seems ludicrous to me to criticise people firing on other people who have taken their land and oppress them daily. And restrict support to that limited level, the Palestinians and not just Hamas have always fought this battle outside where it lives.”
I’m glad that you were glad, because this reflects what I was saying above about the way you frame arguments. I was not accusing you of holding a position, because what you actually said didn’t actually say that, and was open to interpretation. That is why I used the term “suggests”.
I think that what is wrong with your argument here is that you say that “its ludicrous to criticise people firing on other people who have taken their land and oppress them daily.” But, the majority of Israelis have not themselves taken the Palestinians land, and it is not the Israelis who are being fired on who oppress the Palestinians daily, but the Israeli State. You conflate the ordinary Israeli workers – and the majority are workers – with the Israeli State. It is the very opposite of a Marxist perspective, which recognises that societies are divided into classes, and it is these class divisions which are the main focus of Marxists concerns. By simply obliterating that class distinction and just labelling everyone as Jew, or Israeli your position ceases being Marxist and becomes simply Nationalist. It is Nationalists who see conflicts in terms of this Nation against that Nation. That was precisely, the betrayal that the socialists of the Second International committed. The job of Marxists is not to set worker against worker on the basis of nation against nation, but to demonstrate the common interests of all workers against all bosses. That is what “Workers of the World Unite” means. Of course, Marxists do not simply bury their head in the sand and refuse to recognise that workers are divided on such lines – that is after all why the bosses were able to get them to kill each other in such large numbers in two World Wars – but our job is not to acquiesce in that Nationalism, but to offer workers a solution to their problems – including National oppression - based not on Nationalism, but on Internationalism, based not on making common cause with their own national bourgeoisie, and its agents, but on making common cause with the workers of the oppressing nation.
If you daily fire rockets at those workers, send homicide bombers to kill them and their families, you cut right across the potential for making such common cause.
”You said,
“I’m not advocating support for Fatah as opposed to Hamas,”
”Well my moronic questioning cleared that up, because that is how it came across.”
But, that is a good example of what I was talking about. It only came across to you in that way, because you started from a preconceived idea of what my position was, and then distorted what I actually said, in your head, to conform to that preconceived notion. There was nothing in what I said about the actions of Hamas that could give reasonable cause for you to believe that I was supporting Fatah. In fact, I did not even mention Fatah. Unfortunately, as I have said to you before, you have this strange notion of politics which has infected certain sections of the left in recent years that amounts to “My enemy’s enemy is my friend”. So, you see imperialism as your enemy, and therefore see as your friend anyone who is the enemy of imperialism e.g. Hamas, Iran etc. Similarly, I attack Hamas, and you immediately translate into the idea that I must, therefore, be a friend of Hamas enemies – Fatah, imperialism and s on. Not only is this approach unMarxist, but it is simply illogical. If I’m watching a football match between Man Utd and Chelsea, the fact that I say, I hate Man Utd, does not at all imply, therefore, that I am supporting Chelsea. In fact, its quite clear that I could hate Chelsea even more than Man U. In reality I couldn’t give a toss about any or either.
That is my point. In such confrontations Marxists basically start from the position “I have no dog in this fight”. The only dog we have is the working class, and its fight is against all those others. So, for future reference in the event of me criticising one of two groups of bourgeois or reactionaries, do not take that as me supporting the other, because I don’t, I support in each instance the working class and its interests.
“And the reality is that its actions tell us that this is a clerical-fascist organisation that is hostile not only to the working class, socialists and the Labour Movement, but that it even hostile to some of the basic ideas of bourgeois democracy without which working class struggle is made near to impossible, for example, freedom of assembly,, movement and speech, a Constituent Assembly and so on.”
”Fair enough but Israel also imposes these restrictions on the Palestinians and they are a bourgeois “democracy” are they not?”
Do you see you have just done the same thing again? I criticise Hamas, and immediately now you take that as me supporting Israel!!!! Of course, the Israeli State, is oppressive, it’s a bourgeois state. It oppresses not just Palestinians, but Jewish and Arab workers in Israel. That is what capitalist states are there to do. I am just as opposed to the Israeli State as I am to Hamas. The fact that that state is masked in the cloak of bourgeois democracy does not change its class nature as Trotsky set out – actually in response to the Palestinian Trotskyists who wanted to argue for support for the bourgeois democracies as against Fascist Germany in WWII. As against an oppressive sub-imperialist, Israeli, capitalist state, Marxists support the oppressed Palestinian people despite the leadership of Hamas or Fatah. But, that support for those oppressed people does not in any way imply or require political support for Hamas, or Fatah or any other non-socialist leadership or organisation.
“I’ve heard Nazis describe Jews the way you do.”
”Ok give me examples of how I have described Jews in this way? As for the paedophile remark, that is stupid. The relevant point would be is the paedophile right wing or left wing. It’s the fact that Phillips is right wing that matters, not that she is a woman or is bi sexual or whatever, this really is a very silly thing to say.(I am sure paedophiles hold many differing views).”
That’s precisely my point, and the reason I just used back on you the very same method that you have applied to me. You do not and have not asked yourself throughout can his position be the same as that of Phillips because he stands on the left and she stands on the right. Instead, you have simply said you both make the same statement of facts, both describe Hamas in the same terms, therefore you are the same!
”It was previously argued,
’So why are you not supporting the west in its war against Clerical fascism?’”
”For the same reason Marxists didn’t support imperialist democracies against fascist imperialism in Germany!!!! For goodness sake this is less than the ABC of Marxism, it’s the Marxism you should have embraced in the womb. Oh that’s right your not a Marxist or a socialist. Again, you line yourself up with Phillips and the other reactionaries who only want workers to be able to choose between two capitalist evils.”
”I am asking YOU why you support the west; I haven’t said I do this. Now you have explained and I understand but for Christ sake, stop taking one of my questions about you and extending it to mean my position must be the question I am asking.”
No the question was loaded. It was a have you stopped beating your wide question. You were saying that logically I should support the West as against clerical-fascism. IN fact, above you say I AM supporting the West, and that has been the thrust of your pro-imperialism assertion throughout. But, again can you not see a pattern here? This is again you only seeing an alternative between my enemy, and my enemies enemy. Clerical-fascism is my enemy you correctly say, so therefore, you must logically support the enemy of your enemy!!! But, no I must not support the enemy of my enemy, precisely because they too are my enemy. It is a non sequitur, that is the conclusion reached does not flow logically from the premise. My enemy is both clerical-fascism, and imperialism and its agents, my only friend is the international working class, and in every battle, every conflict my action is based on that fact, and my tactics and strategy flow from it. But, can you not see that it is precisely your method of proceeding not on that basis, but on the basis that the only choice is between the two contending reactionary forces, you DO put yourself in the camp of bourgeois like Phillips, because that is precisely the logic they follow, that is precisely the choice they want the working class to have, because it necessarily denies the working class an independent stance, necessarily ties them to one or other reactionary, bourgeois force?
“so in such a development I will argue at all times for the interests of the working class, for its rapid organisation into Trade Unions, Co-operatives and a Workers Party, precisely in order to move as rapidly as possible from Capitalism to Socialism.”
”So there was no reason once again for you to lie about my position or to make any assumptions about it was there?”
”Ok I have grasped that where capitalism comes into conflict with itself you take a “neutral position” but not everywhere in the world is capitalist, so if a non capitalist community came into conflict with a capitalist one then surely you must support the civilising capitalist, no matter what tactics they employ?”
No. Let me give an analogy. You work in a coal mine. The work is dirty and dangerous. Men die from dust, and frequent accidents. The Capitalist comes along and says, I intend to invest in a Long Wall Cutter – that is an automatic machine that basically cuts out large swathes of rock across the coal face, and sends it back along an attached conveyor belt. The machine will save the lives of thousands of miners. That of course, is not the reason the Capitalist wants to introduce it. He wants to introduce it because it will save him money by various means, and will thereby increase his profits. Now do you as a Marxist or even a decent Trade Unionist say, a) “Yes, by all means introduce the machine, it is progressive because it will save the lives of many miners, and the fact that a few hundred will lose their jobs is just the inevitable price to pay”, b) say “Absolutely, not we’d rather thousands of miners die every year from dust and accidents than lose a few hundred jobs”, or c) say, “Yes, introduce the machine it is progressive, it will save the lives of many miners, BUT, we will oppose any redundancies as a result of its introduction, we will demand that the hours be cut, or workers be found other jobs”. I think any Marxist or decent Trade Unionist knows the answer is c. That is the attitude that was taken in relation to Technology Agreements for example. That is also the answer to your question. To the extent that Capitalism seeks to modernise an economy – albeit for its own profit maximising reasons – Marxists would say, fine we favour that. If some reactionary feudal force sought to oppose that modernisation – as for example the Landlords did in Britain, and in Russia – then Marxists would side with the Capitalists against the Landlords. To the extent that the Capitalists sought to exploit the workers and peasants the Marxists would side irreconcilably with the workers and peasants against the Capitalists.
But, there is more here. If we go back to the machinery issue, Marxists would say to the workers, “Look we can oppose the Capitalist trying to use this machine to save Labour Power. We can use basic Trade Union struggle to insist on our rights as against those of the Capitalist. We may win, but ultimately, the Capitalist will win, because he has the greater power. Only if we take over the machines and the factories and run them ourselves can WE win. And that is precisely what Marxists say to the workers in the situation you give. It is good that the Capitalist is introducing this new way of producing, but we have to fight for our rights as against his in that process, and if we want ultimately to win that fight we have to take over the economy for ourselves.
“I will put it to you to answer.”
”You must have been saddened that Geert Wilders was not allowed into Britain. Is that your position or is it not?”
”No I was not saddened but how this can mean I support the ban I don’t know.”
Because if you are not sad that a Capitalist State can get away with removing the basic bourgeois democratic right of freedom of movement and of speech, it must mean that you approved of its actions. If you opposed its actions you would be sad that it carried them out. The fact that it is Wilders who was the subject of those actions is irrelevant, the bourgeois state did away with a basic freedom that all workers rely on. That is bad, and any socialist should be sad that they got away with it.
”I said,
’Anyway, yes this capital did progress Russia, just like the atom bombs progressed Japan and the massacres in the colonies civilised them.’
I made this point to highlight the fact that civilising hasn’t all been about foreign investment. I thought the example you gave was one of the less violent methods. But you extend this to mean that I wish Russia had stayed a peasant country.”
No you made a direct comparison of how Capital had developed Russia with the dropping of atom bombs on Japan. That is ridiculous. The investment of Capital in Russia was a highly progressive event, which helped to transform Russia, from being a medieval, feudal economy. The dropping of atomic bombs on Japan, was not just a thoroughly reactionary event, but a thoroughly barbaric act!
”I said,
’Why don’t you just stick to lauding it and say this came with inevitable violent consequences.’
you first said,”
"I’m happy with that formulation.
That is an accurate description of how mankind has developed and progressed. Had there been no slave society there would have been no civilisation, without civilisation, no science no art, no development of the productive forces. Without science, art, and the development of the productive forces eventually no Capitalism, and with no Capitalism, no working class. With no science, art, culture, development of the productive forces, and working class there would be no possibility of Socialism, and no future for mankind. Instead, we’d be where you’d prefer us to be half starving, living in animal skins, even more ignorant than you are today, barely separated from the animals, and with no future."
”Then you said,
“But you have yet to show where I argued that Britain SHOULD have invaded India, or anywhere else for that matter. It’s a completely different matter to argue that Britain did something and the consequences were historically progressive, and saying Britain SHOULD do this. Why? Because, I’m a socialist, and my task is to argue for socialism not Capitalism. I’m not going to advise the Capitalists what they SHOULD do.”
”Haven’t you made that argument in the first quote, didn’t Britain by invading India save it from a barbaric lifestyle. Again if capitalism came into conflict with a tribe in the jungle wouldn’t you think people who supported the tribesmen were reactionary? And wouldn’t you be prevented from criticising the capitalist if they massacred those tribesmen because you would not advise capitalism what they should do?”
No, I have not made that argument in the first quote. When the first slave societies arose they were historically progressive for the reasons I have outlined. But on what side would a revolutionary have stood at the time those societies arose that of the slave holder or the slave? They would have stood on the side of the slave, because precisely at the moment that those societies arose they created a new force that became revolutionary the slave not the slave holder. The establishment of Capitalism was progressive compared with feudalism, but at the moment it comes into existence it also brings into existence the working class, and for the same reason the revolutionary stands on the side of that new revolutionary class. Where Capitalism comes into contact with a group of tribesmen in the jungle, then if those tribesmen themselves oppose being turned into wage workers then I will be on the side of the tribesmen, because although I favour them being liberated from their primitiveness, as a socialist I am not going to support a reactionary means of bringing that about. However, if the tribesmen are attracted to the idea of living in decent houses, of being removed from constant threat of starvation and so on, but the tribal leaders seek to prevent them – because for example the tribal leaders obtain some benefits from their position, which will be lost when they no longer have tribesmen, then I will be on the side of the Capitalists and the tribesmen and against the tribal chiefs.
Moreover, if the process is rather like that in India where a powerful Capitalism uses its force to bring about such a change then once that change has happened I will be opposed to those who seek to revert to a previous form of society. No sensible person let alone Marxist once Capitalism had been established in India would have supported various reactionary forces who wanted to take society back to the days of the village commune, and all of the reactionary baggage that went with it. Similarly, in 1940 when the USSR invaded Poland, Trotsky opposed the invasion because it was reactionary. It strengthened the position of the Stalinist bureaucracy and the idea that Socialism could be introduced by such militaristic and bureaucratic methods, and diminished the idea that socialism could only introduced by the working class itself. Yet, despite that once that invasion had cleared out the old landlord and capitalist classes, and begun to transform property relations, Trotsky argued against the idea that there should be support for those forces aiming to reintroduce capitalist property relations. They now represented the past, and the task was to support the workers against both them and the Stalinist bureaucracy, and if need be to support the Stalinists as against the old exploiting classes.
And the fact that it is not my job to advise the capitalists on how best to proceed does not at all relieve me of the task of supporting the working class and other proletarian classes against any reactionary measures by that capitalist class. Marxists advise the workers and peasants not the Capitalists.
“But, Marxists would not argue for Capitalism to engage upon such actions, precisely because it inevitably entailed a reactionary means of bringing that transformation about.”
”But you previously said that you would NOT advise capitalism what to do; now you saying you would want them to do it in a certain way. Maybe it’s because I’m a moron, but this seems contradictory.”
As I said above, Marxists advise the workers and peasants not the bosses. In so far as Capitalists act progressively Marxists will not oppose what is progressive, in so far as they act in a reactionary manner Marxists will mobilise the workers and peasants against those actions.
“Where have I denied the barbarism, where have I argued in favour of Imperialism or Colonialism undertaking such actions?”
”But you said that you would not advise capitalism how it undertook its civilising mission. I would actually argue that this mission inevitably involves violence anyway. My logic is that you imply support. Maybe my logic is wrong but it is not a deliberate lie.”
Yes, your logic is wrong. I will not advise the Capitalist to introduce some new machinery. If they do and it is beneficial to the workers I won’t oppose it. If the Capitalist attempts to then throw workers out of their jobs, I will oppose that. It does not involve me in advising the Capitalist either way, it only involves me in consistently defending the interests of the workers both in the introduction of a beneficial machine, and in opposing the loss of jobs, which for the Capitalist is the necessary concomitant of introducing it.
“Yet, the fact, remains that Marx declared that Capitalism in revolutionising the method of production had been a tremendously progressive force, declared that despite all the barbarism in transforming the mode of production in India and elsewhere that it too had been progressive. That didn’t in any shape or form commit him or me to arguing for Colonialism”
”I actually think it does commit you, this is my opinion, I am in no way trying to lie, I genuinely believe it does.
For all the reasons given above, it does not.
”Finally, re the Trotsky “telling the truth” debate,
I think you underplay the anti Muslim sentiment that is out there among the working class, I see a need to combat this.”
Believe me I do not. I talk to ordinary workers every day, and the degree of racism quite honestly frightens me. Indeed, I have been in trouble this last week for clogging up the e-mail boxes of members of my local anti-fascist group in a flurry of attacks by me on people who REALLY WERE propounding within the group pro-imperialist and nationalistic ideas. But, you do not win over workers infected with that racism, by countering the lies of the bourgeois media with lies of your own. In fact, you do the very opposite, you give them absolutely no reason to believe you about anything. The fact is that in Bradford everyone knew the grooming was going on, knew their was a problem. That was not something the media whipped up – though they no doubt played it up rather than down – but something many ordinary white and non-white working class people knew was happening. For Marxists or anti-fascists to have denied that would just have mad them appear dishonest, and would rightly have lost them the trust of local workers. That is why they decided it had to be confronted. They were right.
”Your idea of truth telling seems to assume workers will take these truths and process them in a rational way and come up with some kind of balanced position, I believe this is incorrect, these truths will be filtered by the general prejudices that exist to come up with a position that feeds this prejudice. Your idea seems to assume the Pol Pot idea that we are all a blank page just waiting to be written on.
The immediate problem, I believe, is how we change these prejudicial attitudes and not feed this prejudice.”
No, of course I accept that workers come with a whole load of reactionary baggage, and that its not simply a matter of presenting the truth to workers and allowing them to process it to come to a logical conclusion. Were that the case socialism would have come about 150 years ago. But, by the same token I do not take from that the rather elitist view that you seem to be propounding of saying that workers cannot handle the truth, and so it has to be in some way hidden from them. I think that is a very reactionary and elitist idea, it’s the kind of approach that Stalinism tends to take, it is innately bureaucratic, seeing the role of workers as nothing more than cannon fodder to be manipulated. Nobody suggests that winning workers away from those reactionary ideas is easy, any more than winning them to the idea of socialism is easy, but you cannot do it by lying to them. Its necessary to tell the truth and thereby win their confidence, precisely because by doing so they can learn over time that what you say is true in the big things as well as the small.
Ok apology accepted.I guess we have both fuelled the cretinous level to which this debate sank.
ReplyDeleteAgain your last post cleared up certain doubts in my mind and I will again narrow things to areas of uncertainty.
You said,
“One of the reasons I lost my temper is that for the last couple of weeks alongside replying to you I have been replying to very long diatribes by a BNP supporter on another comrade’s blog. I have to say that your comments and method of arguing were indistinguishable from his. You both start from what I can only describe as a bigoted view”
I started my correspondence with you on the idea you believed Gaza was not occupied, hardly a bigoted starting position, I still maintain you were wrong about that. The fact you believe this made me suspicious of your politics right from the start. (Maybe unfairly).
To give you a better understanding of my position,
I just don’t think there is a lot I can do about Iran or Hamas, other than protest when our country/their oppressors attack them. I am all for creating internationalist organisations based on socialist principles but I think in the end it’s up to the Iranians to change their society, we practically cannot do it. Instead we should concentrate our efforts, mainly, on changing our own deeply flawed society. The Palestinian issue to me seems a different situation and a very complex one. I just don’t damn oppressed people if they don’t rigidly follow a Marxist tactical line and maybe Marx didn’t have enough to say on the concept of nationlaism. You can try and separate the Israeli workers or any worker from the state but the problem is the workers do bind themselves to states, that’s a problem we need to solve if we are ever to have socialism. I don’t think there are any easy answers.
From you,
“If you daily fire rockets at those workers, send homicide bombers to kill them and their families, you cut right across the potential for making such common cause.”
Ok and you won’t do it by dropping bombs on people and subjecting them to daily humiliation. You also have to recognise that workers on both sides conspire in this tragedy, this thing cuts across class lines. Indeed the whole ideology of the state of Israel cannot be viewed on purely class terms. I think not to recognise this would amount to Marxist fundamentalism, something I am sure, he would have had disdain for.
Having read many of your articles I didn’t see the same level of criticism for Fatah that you reserve for Hamas, this goes for much of your “section” of the left. ( having probed you more I now see your position but it did take probing, whereas your views on Hamas are crstal clear).
This kind of bias from a bourgeois writer would make me think this had something to do with bourgeois sensibilities.
If you watch a game between Man utd and Chelsea and you spend the game slagging off Man utd but not Chelsea, yes I would infer some bias towards Chelsea.
From your previous comments,
“And the reality is that its actions tell us that this is a clerical-fascist organisation that is hostile not only to the working class, socialists and the Labour Movement, but that it even hostile to some of the basic ideas of bourgeois democracy without which working class struggle is made near to impossible, for example, freedom of assembly,, movement and speech, a Constituent Assembly and so on.”
”Fair enough but Israel also imposes these restrictions on the Palestinians and they are a bourgeois “democracy” are they not?”
”Do you see you have just done the same thing again? I criticise Hamas, and immediately now you take that as me supporting Israel!!!”
Hang on a minute, look at your comment again. You say “, but that it even hostile to some of the basic ideas of bourgeois democracy without which working class struggle is made near to impossible, for example, freedom of assembly,, movement and speech, a Constituent Assembly and so on”.
I was saying Israel is a Bourgeois “democracy” but they still restrict the Palestinians in ways that are “basic ideas of Bourgeois democracy” in your view. It’s the old Bourgeois showing their true colours again, as Marx pointed out in their colonial activities.
Here you patronisingly set up a straw man to critique a point I was not making.
You said,
“The establishment of Capitalism was progressive compared with feudalism, but at the moment it comes into existence it also brings into existence the working class, and for the same reason the revolutionary stands on the side of that new revolutionary class.”
Isn’t this really saying we support the overthrow of the old society and by extension any massacres that might take place, (As we are powerless to have any control over this) and then once this “dirty” work is finished, we then support the new class that is created.
More from you,
“As I said above, Marxists advise the workers and peasants not the bosses. In so far as Capitalists act progressively Marxists will not oppose what is progressive, in so far as they act in a reactionary manner Marxists will mobilise the workers and peasants against those actions.”
So Marxists will sometimes advise workers to support the bosses but only when Marxists have deemed their actions “progressive”. Another question to consider is does this method actually work. Can this method be applied to real events in a way that workers can relate to? It sounds like a fairly passive role to me.
You said,
“I will put it to you to answer.”
”You must have been saddened that Geert Wilders was not allowed into Britain. Is that your position or is it not?”
But I said,
“You must have been saddened that Geert Wilders was not allowed to enlighten us on the dangers of clerical fascism.”
This is a Stalinist reworking of the facts, I was not saddened I couldn’t hear his views.
Re your coal mining analogy,
Now of course new technology to improve productiveness is generally a good thing, but on the other hand it does in reality put machines above men and men end up accepting this and their fate to it. They think along bourgeois lines and anyone trying to swim against this tide is seen as reactionary. This could explain the reason why the capitalists always get away with option A in your example.
I don’t think it is elitist to point out people don't process "facts" and come up with a rational position and I don’t exclude myself from falling into this trap, it’s a very easy thing to do. And it infects all classes. I was trying to make the point that “telling the workers the truth” is a more complicated proposition than you seemed to be inferring.
In fact this seems to be another example of having your cake and eating it, you agree that workers come with reactionary baggage but say it’s an elitist view.
I think the grooming issue needs to be explained in context and not just a one dimensional criticism, i.e. pointing out the “facts” as being the whole truth. I was watching the film the Long Good Friday the other day and there is a scene in it where a bomb has been found in a casino and the Godfather like character asks if any suspicious looking people were in the casino and the casino manager responded that their had only been Arabs. How times have changed, the word Bomb and Arab go together today like fish and chips.
At least in the minds of those
that swallow the establishment line.
”I started my correspondence with you on the idea you believed Gaza was not occupied, hardly a bigoted starting position, I still maintain you were wrong about that. The fact you believe this made me suspicious of your politics right from the start. (Maybe unfairly).
ReplyDeleteThe point is that if you disagreed with that position you should have made an argument against THAT, not made unjustified assumptions about my position in general from it, and launched into a tirade of abuse calling me pro-imperialist and so on. That was neither rational nor comradely.
”I just don’t think there is a lot I can do about Iran or Hamas, other than protest when our country/their oppressors attack them. I am all for creating internationalist organisations based on socialist principles but I think in the end it’s up to the Iranians to change their society, we practically cannot do it.”
Its not our job to change Iranian society that is true, and yes we should oppose attempts by imperialism to attack Iran or to use things such as sanctions. But, a) that does not require us to give political support to the Iranian rulers b) does not entail us remaining quiet about the deeply reactionary nature of the regime c) but does entail us giving support to Iranian workers in fighting both those rulers and the threat from imperialism. As individuals you are right its not possible to do much, but that is true of everything. That’s why we don’t rely on the acts of individuals, but on collective action. It is possible to work through a Trade Union organisation, through the LP and other Labour Movement organisations to give both moral and practical support to Iranian workers, and we should.
”Instead we should concentrate our efforts, mainly, on changing our own deeply flawed society.”
Its not an either or situation.
”The Palestinian issue to me seems a different situation and a very complex one. I just don’t damn oppressed people if they don’t rigidly follow a Marxist tactical line and maybe Marx didn’t have enough to say on the concept of nationalism.”
Actually, he said quite a lot, and what he didn’t say subsequent Marxists did. Its one area in which I find myself pretty much in agreement with what Lenin and Trotsky said. And neither I nor they HACE said that you damn people for not being Marxists. But, that is different from giving support to classes or organisations within such oppressed peoples who are reactionary, and who are the enemies of the workers. Our task is to support as far as we can those workers organisations that can provide a progressive alternative to such forces, and to assist where we can the political development of those workers organisations.
”You can try and separate the Israeli workers or any worker from the state but the problem is the workers do bind themselves to states, that’s a problem we need to solve if we are ever to have socialism. I don’t think there are any easy answers.”
No one suggested there were, but we do know what those answers are. The problem is that by and large over the last 50 years or so the left hasn’t followed them, but has itself got tangled up in a bourgeois and petit-bourgeois nationalist outlook. Marxists do not propound the idea of new class states, even where they defend the RIGHT of a people to demand such. Under such conditions they seek to achieve the greatest unity of the workers of the various nationalities living within the given existing state on the basis of a struggle for basic democratic rights for the oppressed nationalities as well as for the combined interests of workers as against the bosses. They demand that oppressed peoples be free to propagandise for their right to a separate state, and where it is the wish to separate and create such a state to do so without the violent suppression of such by the oppressing state. Where that state does use such means the Marxists defend the oppressed nationalities against it, and try to mobilise the combined forces of the workers of all nationalities within that State to oppose it. At all times the main concern of the Marxists is to maintain and try to forge the unity of the workers not the bourgeois democratic demand for self-determination.
“If you daily fire rockets at those workers, send homicide bombers to kill them and their families, you cut right across the potential for making such common cause.”
”Ok and you won’t do it by dropping bombs on people and subjecting them to daily humiliation.”
True, but it is the Israeli State NOT Israeli workers that is dropping those bombs. Many Israeli workers its true defend the actions of that State, precisely because they see it as a defence against those rocket attacks. If there were no rocket attacks the actions of the Israeli State would be exposed for what they are. I was recebntly watching the TV programme “Motown’s Burning” about the 1960’s riots in Detroit. One of the contributor’s speaking of the Vietnam War said something along the lines of, “We were being asked to go to fight a War on the other side of the world against people who had done us no harm, by people who daily were keeping us down. If there were Viet Cong tanks coming down main street that would be different.”
Here’s the point. In the 1960’s tens of thousands of US citizens marched, demonstrated, struck against the War. The US State used its full panoply of resources against them. They didn’t stop the war, you can only stop a bourgeois state going to war by overthrowing it, it was the Vietnamese who kicked the US out, but do you think that the anti-war movement would have had any success if the Viet Cong HAD been launching attacks on US cities, if they had been blowing up those self-same US workers who went out on to the streets to protest? I think the answer is abundantly clear.
”You also have to recognise that workers on both sides conspire in this tragedy, this thing cuts across class lines. Indeed the whole ideology of the state of Israel cannot be viewed on purely class terms. I think not to recognise this would amount to Marxist fundamentalism, something I am sure, he would have had disdain for.”
The point is that Marxists DO see it in class terms, however, the Israeli State sees it, and ultimately that state sees it in class terms too. I guarantee you that if Palestinian and Jewish workers were to unite, and were to threaten the establishment of a socialist state, the Israeli State and Capitalists would overnight make common cause with the Palestinian and Arab bourgeoisie against the workers. You do not cut across the nationalism, which infects the Labour Movement by yourself advocating nationalism. I’ve been having precisely that argument in my local anti-fascist group this last week or so with people who wanted to oppose the BNP’s use of WWII images, and wanted to do so on the basis of arguing that the BNP were not patriotic, wanted to keep those WWII images of British Imperialism for themselves.
”Having read many of your articles I didn’t see the same level of criticism for Fatah that you reserve for Hamas, this goes for much of your “section” of the left. ( having probed you more I now see your position but it did take probing, whereas your views on Hamas are crstal clear).”
That’s because Fatah are not running Gaza, and because although Fatah are a bourgeois nationalist organisation they do not represent the same kind of immediate threat to Palestinian workers or basic bourgeois democratic freedoms for the Palestinians that Hamas do. Its rather like the BNP and the Tories. I make no apology for reserving the bulk of my criticism of the BNP, because it is a fascist organisation that here today not only threatens workers, but threatens those basic freedoms on which workers rely. The Tories do not. That doesn’t mean that I support the Tories, or that I don’t point out that at some point in the future when the chips were down they would be prepared to scrap those freedoms just as much as the BNP.
”This kind of bias from a bourgeois writer would make me think this had something to do with bourgeois sensibilities.”
But, in a sense it does as I said above. Its necessary to distinguish between those forces who here and now stand for the removal of all those bourgeois freedoms on which the workers rely, and those that do not. Otherwise, you end up with the kind of Third Period nonsense that the Stalinists were guilty of during the early 1930’s that led to Hitler coming to power, the calling of everyone some kind of fascist.
“And the reality is that its actions tell us that this is a clerical-fascist organisation that is hostile not only to the working class, socialists and the Labour Movement, but that it even hostile to some of the basic ideas of bourgeois democracy without which working class struggle is made near to impossible, for example, freedom of assembly,, movement and speech, a Constituent Assembly and so on.”
”Fair enough but Israel also imposes these restrictions on the Palestinians and they are a bourgeois “democracy” are they not?”
”Do you see you have just done the same thing again? I criticise Hamas, and immediately now you take that as me supporting Israel!!!”
”Hang on a minute, look at your comment again. You say “, but that it even hostile to some of the basic ideas of bourgeois democracy without which working class struggle is made near to impossible, for example, freedom of assembly,, movement and speech, a Constituent Assembly and so on”.
I was saying Israel is a Bourgeois “democracy” but they still restrict the Palestinians in ways that are “basic ideas of Bourgeois democracy” in your view. It’s the old Bourgeois showing their true colours again, as Marx pointed out in their colonial activities.”
Yes, they do, but its only relevant as an argument if someone is arguing in support of Israel as opposed to Hamas, but I’m not. Its not a question here of how we define Israel, but of how we define Hamas, because I am not arguing for support to Israel, but you are arguing for support of Hamas! Once against you are deriving your politics not on the basis of an examination of the politics of the contending parties, but on the basis of lesser evilism, or of my enemy’s enemy is my friend.
”Here you patronisingly set up a straw man to critique a point I was not making.
You said,
“The establishment of Capitalism was progressive compared with feudalism, but at the moment it comes into existence it also brings into existence the working class, and for the same reason the revolutionary stands on the side of that new revolutionary class.”
”Isn’t this really saying we support the overthrow of the old society and by extension any massacres that might take place, (As we are powerless to have any control over this) and then once this “dirty” work is finished, we then support the new class that is created.”
I don’t see what is patronising about it, and nor is it a straw man, because it WAS replying to the point you made. When the Capitalists were fighting for the establishment of Capitalism, of basic bourgeois freedoms, such as free movement and free speech, when as part of that process they were engaged in massacres and Civil War against the feudalists who wanted to prevent such a development on whose side would the revolutionary be? Answer, on the side of the bourgeoisie. They were the revolutionary class, they represented progress. That’s why at that time Marx and Engels supported them not just in words but in deeds. In fact, in the revolutions of 1848, Marx’s critique of the German bourgeoisie was that it was not ruthless enough against the old feudal regime – because he was to realise that it now had its eye on the rising working class. But, in 1789, when the French bourgeoisie and petit-bourgeoisie was lopping off the heads of the aristos and its supporters on a daily basis Marx makes no bones about whose side he was on. No one is suggesting that we wipe our hands of such a necessary cleaning out, because as Marxists we recognise that the old ruling class will cling to power by such means unless it is met with an equal if not superior amount of violence.
But, how is that in any way the same as arguing in favour of such violence against the masses???? Revolutionary violence against the old rulers is progressive, it is liberating. Violence to enslave people is not. The consequence of that action, if it replaces an old mode of production such as in India, might itself be progressive, but that doesn’t change the reactionary nature of the action itself! As I said, the Stalinist invasion of Poland in 1940 was reactionary. The consequence, the rooting out of the old exploiting classes, the transformation of productive relations was progressive. The fact of the latter can’t change the nature of the former.
“As I said above, Marxists advise the workers and peasants not the bosses. In so far as Capitalists act progressively Marxists will not oppose what is progressive, in so far as they act in a reactionary manner Marxists will mobilise the workers and peasants against those actions.”
”So Marxists will sometimes advise workers to support the bosses but only when Marxists have deemed their actions “progressive”.”
I didn’t use the word “support” I only said “do not oppose”. But, under some circumstances workers could be advised to support the bosses. When bourgeois organised the demonstration in St. Peters Fields in Manchester in the early 19th century against the old aristocracy, workers supported the bourgeoisie, and were correct to do so. The old aristocracy cut down workers and bourgeoisie alike in what became known as the Peterloo Massacre. When the bourgeoisie called for greater suffrage through the 1832 Second Reform Act, the workers correctly supported it as further weakening the landlord class, and helped paved the way for the Chartists to demand Universal Suffrage. When the bourgeoisie opposed the Corn Laws, which kept up the price of bread which was a staple of the workers diet – the workers correctly supported them – as did Marx, even though he pointed out that a) the Capitalists wanted it in order to reduce the Value of Labour Power, and b) neither Protection nor Free Trade was the solution to the workers problems.
So yes, if Marxists deem actions by the bourgeoisie progressive there is no reason why they would oppose them, and there are conditions under which they would actually support them. Isn’t that eminently sensible????
”Another question to consider is does this method actually work. Can this method be applied to real events in a way that workers can relate to? It sounds like a fairly passive role to me.”
There was nothing passive about the above examples. Take another example, the EU. It is in the interests of Capital to establish a European State. Such a development is also in the interests of European workers, because it will facilitate their greater unity, it will undermine nationalism, it will facilitate the movement of workers, it will hasten the development of international workers organisations and so on. The bosses obviously won’t do it for those reasons. They will seek to establish a European State that furthers their interests. But, that’s no reason for workers to oppose what will actually be a progressive development, a development that objectively is in their interests. But, workers have no reason to passively accept what the bosses want. They would say, “We want a socialist United States of Europe, short of that we want any new state to be established on the basis of the fullest democratic discussion, we want in every country and across countries workers assemblies to discuss the Constitution, and basis of such a state, we want the convocation of Constituent Assemblies which will discuss and formulate such a Constitution rather than it being simply drawn up by the representatives of the bosses”. And so on.
”But I said,
“You must have been saddened that Geert Wilders was not allowed to enlighten us on the dangers of clerical fascism.”
This is a Stalinist reworking of the facts,”
No its not it amounts to the same thing, the key word here is “allowed”. I’m not bothered whether you were “not saddened I couldn’t hear his views”, I am bothered that you were not saddened that you were not “allowed” to hear his views, because that means that you are not saddened by the bourgeois state removing the right of free speech, and of free movement. Those are rights, which socialists and democrats over centuries have fought for and died for. That a socialist can declare that they are not saddened when the Capitalist State gets away with taking them away I find truly shocking.
”Now of course new technology to improve productiveness is generally a good thing, but on the other hand it does in reality put machines above men and men end up accepting this and their fate to it.”
No Capitalist production does that. It is the failure to insist on the rights of workers in such situations that leads to the situation you describe, not the introduction of the machines and technology.
”They think along bourgeois lines and anyone trying to swim against this tide is seen as reactionary. This could explain the reason why the capitalists always get away with option A in your example.”
But, they don’t do they. If that were true we’d still be working 18 hours a day 7 days a week as we were 150 years ago!
”I don’t think it is elitist to point out people don't process "facts" and come up with a rational position and I don’t exclude myself from falling into this trap, it’s a very easy thing to do.”
That isn’t what I described as elitist. What I described as elitist was the conclusion that you drew from this, which was that workers couldn’t handle the truth, that it was only possible to deal with the lies of the bourgeois media by denying the truth.
”And it infects all classes. I was trying to make the point that “telling the workers the truth” is a more complicated proposition than you seemed to be inferring.
In fact this seems to be another example of having your cake and eating it, you agree that workers come with reactionary baggage but say it’s an elitist view.”
No as I said, what is elitist is deciding they can’t be told the truth, deciding that they have to be lied to for their own good, that the truth has to be denied and manipulated, because as you put it it’s a complicated proposition to actually overcome that reactionary baggage to actually spend time, actively discussing with the workers and winning them away from those ideas. That is precisely the sectarianism that marks the Left in its approach to the workers.
”I think the grooming issue needs to be explained in context and not just a one dimensional criticism, i.e. pointing out the “facts” as being the whole truth. I was watching the film the Long Good Friday the other day and there is a scene in it where a bomb has been found in a casino and the Godfather like character asks if any suspicious looking people were in the casino and the casino manager responded that their had only been Arabs. How times have changed, the word Bomb and Arab go together today like fish and chips.
At least in the minds of those
that swallow the establishment line.”
But, all you are doing here is yet again denying the truth. No one in the anti-fascist movement in Bradford was simply presenting a one-dimensional criticism. How on Earth can you make such a statement about people who for years HAD been fighting racism, HAD been fighting the lies put out by the media and the racists????? Its not a one-dimensional criticism that the SWP objected to, but any criticism at all. They and you do the same thing with Hamas and other reactionary organisations and movements they have tied their wagon too.
Boffy,
ReplyDeleteAgain you have made your position clearer to me and I will again narrow my comments to areas of uncertainty/dispute.
You said re Gaza being occupied,
“The point is that if you disagreed with that position you should have made an argument against THAT”
I did make an argument against it, without wishing to repeat the argument all over again, I said Israel decided what came in, what went out. Controlled the sea, air space and had economic control as well. So your point is unfounded and not comradely.
In this case my version of the truth is the exact opposite of yours. Should you reveal this truth to the workers, I would have to advise them that you were lying.
“if the Viet Cong HAD been launching attacks on US cities, if they had been blowing up those self-same US workers who went out on to the streets to protest? I think the answer is abundantly clear.”
Two entirely different situations, both historically and practically. There were no workers for the Viet Cong to attack; they were on the other side of the world, waving their American flags and joyously celebrating the slaughter of “commies”. (Except the ones protesting of course, though they seemed to be students in the majority and are probably now running major corporations).
However the two things are so different I will not get involved in such a pointless analogy.
“The point is that Marxists DO see it in class terms, however, the Israeli State sees it, and ultimately that state sees it in class terms too.”
I think you make a fair point here; maybe the problem is the only ones not seeing it in class terms are the workers.
I am uncomfortable with your descriptions of Hamas, now you mustn’t take this as support for Hamas (Which you always do and accuse me of making the same assumptions with your arguments). I think the label clerical fascist is used in the same way as the term terrorist. I think it is a propagandist label. It ignores the Hegelian dictum that the “real is the rational”, it doesn’t ask why it is real and therefore why it is rational. I find some of your arguments to be meaningless insults rather than a proper critique; this is what I have trouble with and why I have compared your method to people like Melanie Phillips.
I need to repeat this previous argument again because your previous comment makes no sense and crucially misplaces the point about setting up straw men,
“And the reality is that its actions tell us that this is a clerical-fascist organisation that is hostile not only to the working class, socialists and the Labour Movement, but that it even hostile to some of the basic ideas of bourgeois democracy without which working class struggle is made near to impossible, for example, freedom of assembly,, movement and speech, a Constituent Assembly and so on.”
”Fair enough but Israel also imposes these restrictions on the Palestinians and they are a bourgeois “democracy” are they not?”
”Do you see you have just done the same thing again? I criticise Hamas, and immediately now you take that as me supporting Israel!!!”
You say freedom of assembly, movement etc are bourgeois ideas but Israel restricts these for the Palestinians, so Bourgeois ideas go out of the window and are therefore not ideas but more tools to be used as and when convenient. My argument had nothing to do with you supporting Israel.
The above is what I said was you “patronisingly set up a straw man to critique a point I was not making.”
I am glad you acknowledge implicit support for extreme violence in capitalist civilising, but you have to recognise that it isn’t just Aristos having their heads lopped off; it can also mean “barbaric” natives being enslaved and slaughtered.
You said, “Revolutionary violence against the old rulers is progressive, it is liberating.Violence to enslave people is not.”
But doesn’t this assume all capitalist civilising has been pure of motive and bereft of reactionary violence?
You went on to say,
“The consequence of that action, if it replaces an old mode of production such as in India, might itself be progressive, but that doesn’t change the reactionary nature of the action itself!”
You could just as well reversed this and said, “Ok so the brits massacred millions of people in its civilising mission and was reactionary but it doesn’t change the fact that it in the end it was progressive” The fact of the latter can’t change the nature of the former.
You said,
“So yes, if Marxists deem actions by the bourgeoisie progressive there is no reason why they would oppose them, and there are conditions under which they would actually support them. Isn’t that eminently sensible????”
Absolutely.
Imagine for a second that the workers don’t bring about a united socialist Europe and instead are led by the bourgeois to the bourgeoisies chosen solution. (Far fetched, I know). Do you have a plan B, would you think a bourgeois united Europe is better than what we have now?
I think this goes to the heart of our debate, if you think clerical fascism is such a problem and if we assume Marxists can’t solve the problem, what is your plan B?
You make a good point that history has not just been about bosses screwing workers and workers laying on their backs and taking it. I, therefore, need to refine my argument.
Assuming we are talking about an advanced capitalist country like our own, the recent past has been a very passive time in worker struggles. They have been lying on their backs and taking it, at least that’s how it seems to me. The advances you talk about seem to have been won in a time when there were many manual workers but now things have changed. How will it change back?
Finally on the truth issue,
If elitism is the problem, why tell the workers anything, let them make up their own minds. How come you have the answers? What makes you so special?
Anyway, I have already said with the Gaza occupied issue your idea of the truth and mine are very different. Hence the problem with telling workers the truth.
You said,
“No one in the anti-fascist movement in Bradford was simply presenting a one-dimensional criticism. How on Earth can you make such a statement about people”
Fair point. I have not read their report and if you can direct me to it I will read it and make comments. I really was looking at the Bourgeois press reaction to the issue. I would hope that searchlight have asked the question why secret cameras are filming the Muslim community and not others at this particular point in history and I hope they point out that sticking a camera in any community would reveal some pretty ugly opinions. If this context is not highlighted I would have to have some sympathy with the SWP position.
”You said re Gaza being occupied,
ReplyDelete“The point is that if you disagreed with that position you should have made an argument against THAT”
”I did make an argument against it, without wishing to repeat the argument all over again, I said Israel decided what came in, what went out. Controlled the sea, air space and had economic control as well. So your point is unfounded and not comradely.”
On the contrary, my point was that you should have made an argument about that RATHER THAN jumped to a conclusion about what my position was in general, and launched into accusations of pro-imperialism etc. that were unfounded. It was that which I was calling uncomradely not your argument about the blockade of Gaza.
”In this case my version of the truth is the exact opposite of yours. Should you reveal this truth to the workers, I would have to advise them that you were lying.”
Except, of course, I was not lying. A blockade is not Occupation. In fact, as I pointed out if you were Occupying, why would you need to blockade? Iran is facing sanctions, but it is not Occupied is it? It is necessary in politics to make distinctions, and unfortunately, you frequently do not, and it leads you to error. Marxists oppose the blockade of Gaza call for it to be lifted and so on. But, describing it as an Occupation when it is not, is not what Marxists should do. It is not telling the truth.
“if the Viet Cong HAD been launching attacks on US cities, if they had been blowing up those self-same US workers who went out on to the streets to protest? I think the answer is abundantly clear.”
”Two entirely different situations, both historically and practically. There were no workers for the Viet Cong to attack; they were on the other side of the world, waving their American flags and joyously celebrating the slaughter of “commies”. (Except the ones protesting of course, though they seemed to be students in the majority and are probably now running major corporations).
However the two things are so different I will not get involved in such a pointless analogy.”
I take it you weren’t around at the time or you would know how silly that charge is. It makes no difference that the US is half way round the world – the PLO carried out terrorist attacks all over the place. Al Qaeda weren’t stopped from killing US workers in New York either. You seem to want to avoid a direct comparison. But, if you don’t like that one, one closer to home is even more direct, the killing of British workers by the PIRA, certainly did nothing for the cause of British socialists trying to win over British workers to the cause of Irish freedom.
“The point is that Marxists DO see it in class terms, however, the Israeli State sees it, and ultimately that state sees it in class terms too.”
I think you make a fair point here; maybe the problem is the only ones not seeing it in class terms are the workers.
You are right that workers do not often see things in class terms. That is the problem with class consciousness. But, unless Marxists can overcome that then socialism is impossible. But, it is only be raising demands, only by Marxists attempting to build class organisations – internationalist organisations – that that problem can be overcome. Marxists could not simply throw their hands up in 1914, and say, “Sorry the workers don’t see things in class terms, so we may as well just support our own nation.” Yet, effectively that is the position you adopt in saying Israeli workers cannot be won to support the basic democratic rights of Palestinians. And in fact, even on that the facts are against you. The vast majority of Israelis DO favour a separate Palestinian State. Now I would say that the reason for that is largely to do with a large amount of self-interest, of liberal-pacifism that basically says, give them a state so they will stop shooting at us. Nevertheless, it is a fact, and it shows that Marxists could use such a sentiment to build support for basic democratic rights for Palestinians, IF the Palestinians would stop those like Hamas, who cut across that potential for their own ends, and who undermine those in Israel who could be won over to such a perspective.
”I am uncomfortable with your descriptions of Hamas, now you mustn’t take this as support for Hamas (Which you always do and accuse me of making the same assumptions with your arguments). I think the label clerical fascist is used in the same way as the term terrorist. I think it is a propagandist label. It ignores the Hegelian dictum that the “real is the rational”, it doesn’t ask why it is real and therefore why it is rational. I find some of your arguments to be meaningless insults rather than a proper critique; this is what I have trouble with and why I have compared your method to people like Melanie Phillips.”
But, then you would have to do what I asked you to do a couple of posts ago, but which you have still failed to do. If you disagree that Hamas is a clerical-fascist organisation, you would need to say WHY! You would have to say what in my analysis you feel to be wrong in my description of them. More importantly, you would have to tell us what YOUR characterisation of them is. Not just freedom fighters or such like, but a proper Marxist class characterisation. So far, you have given no reason for me to abandon that description. I fail to see how you can describe an organisation that is based on a fundamentalist religious belief, that is totalitarian, that seeks to atomise and destroy the Labour Movement, that opposes basic bourgeois democratic freedoms for women, gays etc. as anything other than clerical-fascist. The fact, that this organisation has arisen due to specific historical conditions, cannot change that basic characterisation of it, anymore than the specific and in many ways similar historical conditions which led to the rise of the Nazis could change for a Marxist what IT was, or our attitude to it.
I think the Hegelian term the “real is the rational” is open to severe abuse. It suggests that what exists, exists because it has to exist. That is no part of Marxism. It is typical Hegelian Idealism, the unfolding of the Ideal. It basically removes human beings from the historical stage reducing them to mere ciphers playing out a pre-ordained opera. The “Real is rational” from the perspective of hindsight, from the perspective that we can say, this happened because of these conditions, it was a rational outcome given specific conditions, but it can never excuse what is, or leave us to simply accept what is, on the basis that things can not be different. As Marx put it, the Philosophers have described the world, the point is to change it. Your approach here leaves us doing nothing but being innocent bystanders. And the fact that certain terms are used by our class enemies as propaganda cannot thereby lead us to fail to describe things accurately ourselves. That would mean boycotting our own analysis, and our own politics. The Tsarists no doubt used the term “Terrorist” in that way, it didn’t stop Lenin from using it even to describe his own Brother.
”You say freedom of assembly, movement etc are bourgeois ideas but Israel restricts these for the Palestinians, so Bourgeois ideas go out of the window and are therefore not ideas but more tools to be used as and when convenient. My argument had nothing to do with you supporting Israel.”
But, they are bourgeois ideas, they are basic to bourgeois rule, they are the watchwords under which the bourgeoisie undertook its revolution against the aristocracy, which denied all of those basic freedoms, and more besides. Yes, of course, the bourgeoisie removes those rights when it needs to to defend its own power, or in order as an expansionist or colonialist power to exercise its control externally. The point is that every time it does so it undermines its own rule, exposes the actual nature of bourgeois rule as a class dictatorship. In doing so it opens up the possibility of Marxists intervening precisely on that score to expose it. But, it is silly to simply equate bourgeois democracy to fascist or authoritarian rule. The former has to be ended for the latter to exist. Marxists are not indifferent to that. That is why they oppose the ending of those freedoms by the bourgeois state.
”I am glad you acknowledge implicit support for extreme violence in capitalist civilising, but you have to recognise that it isn’t just Aristos having their heads lopped off; it can also mean “barbaric” natives being enslaved and slaughtered.”
Or not as the case may be. I see little evidence that the Chinese Capitalists investing in Congo are doing that. They seem to be managing to help develop the local peasants into workers without such means. Of course, they aren’t doing so for altruistic reasons, but for profit maximising reasons. And in fact, that is largely the point. One of the main differences between imperialism and colonialism is that imperialism is really interested in exploiting cheap foreign labour. You can’t do that if you kill them all. And if you institute some kind of authoritarian state over them, they tend to work badly, to commit sabotage, to go in for revolts and so on. The costs for imperialism are very high. That’s one reason why imperialism concentrated much of its foreign investment in other imperialist economies not into those kind of high cost areas. Its why imperialism favours bourgeois democracy, in which the workers are attracted into Capitalist industry by higher living standards, and where they are socialised and controlled through bourgeois ideology not through military force.
As far as I can see, the huge investment of imperialist Capital into Taiwan, Korea, Singapore, Malaysia, Vietnam, Brazil, Argentina, and a score of other countries has not in any way required the kind of enslavement and slaughtering you speak of. In brazil, much of the development which affects native tribesmen in the rain forest is done by native farmers and capitalists. Setting asid the environmental issues, that development is progressive, and no Marxist can defend the barbarous conditions under which those tribesmen live. That doesn’t mean that Marxists defend any violent means of forcing those tribesmen to leave their traditional lands any more than Marxists would have supported the clearing of the Highlands, or the eviction of English peasants through the Enclosure Acts.
”You said, “Revolutionary violence against the old rulers is progressive, it is liberating.Violence to enslave people is not.”
”But doesn’t this assume all capitalist civilising has been pure of motive and bereft of reactionary violence?”
Not at all. There has been plenty of both kinds of violence. Marxists distinguish between the two, just as they distinguish between the violence of the oppressed and the violence of the oppressor. There is nothing pure of motive even when they bourgeoisie used violence progressively. It acted in its own self-interest. But, the working class will do the same when it uses violence against the bourgeoisie.
You could just as well reversed this and said, “Ok so the brits massacred millions of people in its civilising mission and was reactionary but it doesn’t change the fact that it in the end it was progressive” The fact of the latter can’t change the nature of the former.”
I agree. That is perfectly correct. Your point is?
”Imagine for a second that the workers don’t bring about a united socialist Europe and instead are led by the bourgeois to the bourgeoisies chosen solution. (Far fetched, I know). Do you have a plan B, would you think a bourgeois united Europe is better than what we have now?”
Yes, I believe that a United States of Europe would be progressive compared to the division of peoples into nation states. But, I will not argue for that, because instead I will argue for a Socialist United States of Europe.
”I think this goes to the heart of our debate, if you think clerical fascism is such a problem and if we assume Marxists can’t solve the problem, what is your plan B?”
I never said Marxists can’t solve he problem, and I don’t assume that. Were Marxists not so weak it would be easier, but that is no excuse for not arguing the correct politics. In fact, its only by doing so that can both that problem of weakness,a nd the provision of a solution be achieved.
”Assuming we are talking about an advanced capitalist country like our own, the recent past has been a very passive time in worker struggles. They have been lying on their backs and taking it, at least that’s how it seems to me. The advances you talk about seem to have been won in a time when there were many manual workers but now things have changed. How will it change back?
I don’t believe this has anything to do with whether workers are manual workers or non-manual workers. In fact, in the 1970’s I worked at a large pottery factory. I was a white collar worker, and a member of ASTMS. We were only just unionising the white collar workers, whereas the manual workers were one of the first groups of workers ever to be unionised. Yet, the manual workers union was extremely backward, even reactionary. Despite the disparity of memberships, it was the white collar workers that tended to push things forward.
I have gone into a lot of detail in various blogs to explain the reasons for the low level of workers struggles over the last 30 years as being a function of the Kondratiev Long Wave Cycle. A look back in history – and this is a point made by Hobsbawm in his “Industry and Empire” – shows that the periods of workers upsurge coincide almost perfectly with the periods of Long Wave boom, and vice versa. The really revolutionary times are the conjuncture between the end of the boom, and the start of the downturn. 1917 was such a time, the late 60’s and early 70’s were such a time. But, if the moment is not seized, then reaction sets in, the economic conditions move against the workers, it becomes more difficult to undertake struggle, demoralisation sets in. We saw that in the 1920’s and 30’s. We saw it again in the 1980’s.
But, we have entered a new upswing from around 1999. It takes time for the effects of that to become apparent, employment is a lagging indicator, it takes time for workers to regain confidence, to select new leaders, to develop and swing behind new ideas and so on. And in Britain and other developed economies the conditions under which they got through the downturn – which have made the upswing muted, and led to the current credit crisis – mean that the effect is less marked compared to those areas where new working classes are being formed, where rapid economic growth is creating all of those conditions which led to previous revolutions. That is why we see the most encouraging developments in those areas, in China and other parts of Asia, and to some extent in Latin America. We should not have a Eurocentric view and believe that we are the centre of the working class universe. As Gil Scott Heron might have said, “The revolution probably will not be televised”, though I think it almost certainly will.
”If elitism is the problem, why tell the workers anything, let them make up their own minds. How come you have the answers? What makes you so special?”
But, its not about me. Its about what workers could see for themselves. The task of Marxists was not to lie about that truth, but to explain it, to provide answers to it.
”Anyway, I have already said with the Gaza occupied issue your idea of the truth and mine are very different. Hence the problem with telling workers the truth.”
Maybe so, but I’ll stick with the truth that there was no Occupation, but there was and is a blockade. If you are trying to win workers to opposition to the blockade the way NOT to do it is to call on them to oppose a non-existent Occupation!!!!
”Fair point. I have not read their report and if you can direct me to it I will read it and make comments. I really was looking at the Bourgeois press reaction to the issue. I would hope that searchlight have asked the question why secret cameras are filming the Muslim community and not others at this particular point in history and I hope they point out that sticking a camera in any community would reveal some pretty ugly opinions. If this context is not highlighted I would have to have some sympathy with the SWP position.”
Its nothing to do with cameras, and everything to do with people’s everyday experiences. I’ll try to find the Searchlight article, but its some time ago now.
The following gives an account of some of the facts. I will look out the further facts relating to the shameful role played by the SWP.
ReplyDeletefighting fascism
On Gaza being occupied, you did use this argument to suggest that this was some sort of great gesture by Israel, which wasn’t reciprocated by the Palestinians, and to a simple person like me, this seemed to show sympathy with Israel’s Gaza onslaught and not the blood soaked Palestinians. Anyway, we will have to disagree on the definition of occupied.
ReplyDeleteHave also read details of the latest EU report on the Israeli government settlement expansion, Housing demolition and discriminatory housing policy (in favour of Jewish workers and against Muslim ones) in East Jerusalem. Now unless the Jewish workers refuse to live in these areas in solidarity with their fellow Muslim workers then this will have serious implications for the “peace process” and will probably end up with Muslims firing useless rockets at these Jewish workers at some time in the future. (Something you will eventually damn them for). The Israeli’s will then respond to these “terrorists” and “clerical fascists” with the full arsenal of their militarised state. (And the “workers” in the west will fully support its actions because the Palestinians haven’t behaved like the Viet Cong and you will support their logic).
But don’t let the reality in anyway interfere with your solutions.
Anyway just a few points before moving on to the “Grooming issue”,
You said,
“But, if you don’t like that one, one closer to home is even more direct, the killing of British workers by the PIRA, certainly did nothing for the cause of British socialists trying to win over British workers to the cause of Irish freedom.”
This is an even worse analogy than the previous one because we are now comparing two situations where similar tactics were used and cannot, therefore, contrast the tactics as with the Viet Cong. The fact that this is a more similar situation to the Vietnam one could give us a clue why the tactics were similar in the case of the IRA and the Palestinians and were so different with the Viet Cong. I think you’ve made my point for me.
In fact the tone of your argument suggests that oppressed people should just lie back and take all the shit that comes at them just to please western sensibilities and you say I’m Eurocentric!
You said,
“I think the Hegelian term the “real is the rational” is open to severe abuse. It suggests that what exists, exists because it has to exist.”
Well if you are a right Hegelian then, yes, you would reach this conclusion.
I think this is a very revolutionary concept and I think Marx recognised that fact also.
It means that everything has a reason, it demands that everything must be questioned/critiqued and not simply written off with mysticism or superficial labels and above all it means that everything will change its form (when it becomes irrational) and this change will be more than cosmetic. It demands the question why. It is the reason socialists look at crime and explain it by looking at society and why they don’t use terms like evil.
In fact it’s not just a concept it is an explanation of reality. Far from putting human beings as innocent bystanders, it puts them at the centre of things; it means real change will lead to a new society and new rationalities and real changes.
Applied to Gaza, the fact that Hamas have recently been elected at the expense of Fatah would tell me that it is Fatah that is becoming irrational and Hamas that is becoming rational. If you can’t provide a reasonable explanation as to why this is the case, then I would call that the poverty of Boffy.
I said then you said,
“You could just as well reversed this and said, “Ok so the brits massacred millions of people in its civilising mission and was reactionary but it doesn’t change the fact that it in the end it was progressive” The fact of the latter can’t change the nature of the former.”
”I agree. That is perfectly correct. Your point is?”
The point is that this way seems to justify mass murder, whereas reversed, it seems to be more critical. I think the fact that you presented it in the reversed form was no accident.
On the Kondratiev Long Wave Cycle and its influence on worker struggle, well I’m afraid ‘A’ level economics was the height of my education in that field, so I am not in a position to comment. My personal experience tells me manual workers are generally more militant than non manual workers. Though of course I’m sure this could change. I suspect Marx’s analysis was of an Industrial proletariat and not the kind of classes we see in our country today.
Now for the grooming issue,
Firstly, I think you would have to have been on the ground to come to a conclusive position on this. You would have to know the context in which arguments were made and how Searchlight and the SWP reacted to certain positions.
Anyway, with that in mind here are some of my observations.
I can understand why such an issue would be of interest/concern to people. I can’t, however, understand why it is a big election issue, other than coming under the general heading of crime. I can only imagine racist motives.
The sexualisation of young girls in our society is rampant, and this has nothing to do with Muslims. Did searchlight extend this to a wider debate about capitalism and sexuality? Was the role of advertising and the media discussed; was the role of the parents debated etc etc? Was this an honest debate?
Searchlight said,
“The facts are that the police have investigated 65 cases of grooming in Keighley and that the BNP has been able to make much of the fact that 10 Asian men are currently in prison as a result. This is not racist myth, but stubborn fact.”
It is a racist myth if you believe them being Asian had anything to do with it.
What about western white people visiting Thailand each year to have sec with young girls, have searchlight investigated this and brought it to the attention of the good people of Keighley? Was the general decadence of our own society debated?
This idea of telling workers the truth seems to be about pandering to their prejudices and telling them what they want to hear in order to beat fascists. Fair enough, some may say, but don’t tell me it’s telling workers the truth.
More from Searchlight,
“To us, it is clear that, to beat the BNP, anti-fascists need to have a coherent answer for each "issue," whatever it may be.”
This means following the BNP agenda and the small faction that support them, they are active, you are reactive. You concentrate all efforts trying to beat what is a very small power and play to their agenda. It places the BNP in a position well above what they are in reality.
With these tactics you may win the odd battle but you will surely lose the war.
”On Gaza being occupied, you did use this argument to suggest that this was some sort of great gesture by Israel, which wasn’t reciprocated by the Palestinians, and to a simple person like me, this seemed to show sympathy with Israel’s Gaza onslaught and not the blood soaked Palestinians. Anyway, we will have to disagree on the definition of occupied.”
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, you seem to have slipped back into your old habit of making wild, unsubstantiated – and totally incorrect – allegations. Can you show me where I made this comment or even suggestion about the withdrawal from Gaza being a grand gesture by Israel????? I can tell you, you won’t find it. I can tell you what I actually did say had you read even some of the blogs to which you have commented upon. What I actually said was that Israel’s withdrawal from Gaza was part of a cynical deal done with the US, under which Israel withdrew from Gaza and was allowed by the US to continue its Occupation, and settlement of the West Bank. Rather different from the position you would have me arguing isn’t it???? What I also said was that as part of that strategy, the withdrawal from Gaza meant that there were no longer any settlers in Gaza who could be used as hostages in the event of Israeli action, and that, therefore, it also freed up the hands of the Israeli State to launch more ruthless strikes against Gaza than it might otherwise have been able to have done. Again hardly the picture of my position on either Israel or Gaza that you want to portray me as holding!!!!! And given that I used words like slaughter to describe Israel’s actions in Gaza on top of all that I can only wonder when you say that my position showed “sympathy with Israel’s Gaza onslaught and not the blood soaked Palestinians”, “and to a simple person like me”, I can only ask how simple that has to be to so perversely understood my position.
”Have also read details of the latest EU report on the Israeli government settlement expansion, Housing demolition and discriminatory housing policy (in favour of Jewish workers and against Muslim ones) in East Jerusalem. Now unless the Jewish workers refuse to live in these areas in solidarity with their fellow Muslim workers then this will have serious implications for the “peace process” and will probably end up with Muslims firing useless rockets at these Jewish workers at some time in the future. (Something you will eventually damn them for). The Israeli’s will then respond to these “terrorists” and “clerical fascists” with the full arsenal of their militarised state. (And the “workers” in the west will fully support its actions because the Palestinians haven’t behaved like the Viet Cong and you will support their logic).”
Why on Earth would Jewish workers NOT want to live side by side with Palestinian and Arab workers – again rather like the BNP you use the word Muslim as though all Arabs and Palestinians were Muslim. The whoile basis of proletarian policy is that workers should NOT be segregated into ghettoes, into warring communal divides. They should oppose any discriminatory policy of the Israeli State that is against those Palestinian and Arab workers in Jerusalem, but the basis of that opposition should be a fight of workers across the communal divide for decent housing for all. That after all is the answer that socialists give in response to the BNP in this country in response to its calls for British homes for British workers. It certainly is NOT for immigrant workers to alienate themselves from the rest of the British working class by setting itself against it, launching violent attacks on it, and thereby giving the BNP all the ammunition it requires. And yes, if Palestinians fired rockets at Israeli workers I would condemn such attacks as being the wrong tactic to use, though I would explain why they had resorted to such a tactic. But, just because I can understand the conditions that lead workers or others to engage with a particular tactic does not excuse me as a Marxist from condemning it when it is against the overall interests of the working class. If the leaders of a strike are using tactics which are likely to result in a defeat then a Marxist’s job is to say so. Your position reminds me of that of groups like the Alliance for Workers Liberty. Rather than looking to defending the interests of the working class as a whole, you take up a moral crusade on behalf of some particular group, and tie yourself to it – and in this case to the most reactionary elements within that group – whether or not doing so works against the interests of the working class. Your politics is not that of socialism, but of bourgeois nationalism. Where the job of a Marxist is to provide leadership you take up an Economistic position right at the tail of the Movement. It’s the politics which in 1914, would have led you directly into the camp of the social chauvinists who lined the workers up behind the bosses for mass slaughter.
”But don’t let the reality in anyway interfere with your solutions.”
Of course a Marxist should not let reality get in the way of advocating the correct solution. To do otherwise is to be an Opportunist. A Marxist does not ignore reality, but adjusts their tactics to respond to it. But adjusting your tactics is not the same as abandoning your principles or strategy which is what you advocate in so far as you have any principles or strategy. The whole point of Marxism is as I have told you before not to accept reality, but to change it. Your passivity is what flows directly from your Economism and Opportunism. You would be useless in a revolutionary position because you have already positioned yourself right at the back of the working class behind its most reactionary elements, and when the class begins to move quickly you would be left behind out of sight.
”But, if you don’t like that one, one closer to home is even more direct, the killing of British workers by the PIRA, certainly did nothing for the cause of British socialists trying to win over British workers to the cause of Irish freedom.”
”This is an even worse analogy than the previous one because we are now comparing two situations where similar tactics were used and cannot, therefore, contrast the tactics as with the Viet Cong. The fact that this is a more similar situation to the Vietnam one could give us a clue why the tactics were similar in the case of the IRA and the Palestinians and were so different with the Viet Cong. I think you’ve made my point for me.”
What point? The point is that in the case of the Vietnam War a huge anti-war movement was built. In the case of Ireland and Palestine no such movement has been built. I wouldn’t claim that the reason is entirely due to that cause, but it is clearly the case as anyone who tried to talk to ordinary British workers at the time, and risked getting beaten up for doing so, would attest, that one reason that British workers were not won over to such a movement in large numbers was precisely because of the terrorist tactics employed by the PIRA, which were seen as threatening ordinary British workers e.g. the Birmingham pub bombings.
”In fact the tone of your argument suggests that oppressed people should just lie back and take all the shit that comes at them just to please western sensibilities and you say I’m Eurocentric!”
No, the tone of my argument is that oppressed peoples have to be given leadership and solutions to their problems that have some chance of success, and which at the same time advance the cause of the working class. The solutions you put forward do neither. Your solutions require largely unarmed or poorly armed peoples to confront heavily armed states. That in itself is a thoroughly foolhardy tactic to adopt, and one that is easily suggested when you aren’t the one risking your life. Your solution throws workers into the arms of their own reactionary bourgeoisie rather than the proletarian internationalist policy advocated by Lenin of building international workers solidarity in opposition to the bourgeoisie, including and especially your own. Your solution requires socialists to tail the most backward and reactionary sections of the class, and even the bourgeoisie and its agents, and to passively adapt to the reactionary demands under which it conducts its struggle. Your position instead of building international workers solidarity requires worker to fight worker not for any higher socialist goal, but for reactionary nationalist goals. As I said it is the reactionary bourgeois agenda of people like the Alliance for Workers Liberty who put forward such positions for Kosovo, Tibet and so on. It is abandonment of Marxist duty.
“I think the Hegelian term the “real is the rational” is open to severe abuse. It suggests that what exists, exists because it has to exist.”
”Well if you are a right Hegelian then, yes, you would reach this conclusion.
I think this is a very revolutionary concept and I think Marx recognised that fact also.
It means that everything has a reason, it demands that everything must be questioned/critiqued and not simply written off with mysticism or superficial labels and above all it means that everything will change its form (when it becomes irrational) and this change will be more than cosmetic.
Its not a matter of being a right or a left Hegelian. The term is open to abuse, and in fact your use of it demonstrates that abuse. In fact, if we look at what you go on to say we can see that you abuse it in the way that Bernstein did. You use it to see history in teleological terms, which is something which Marx firmly rejected. Of course, everything has a reason, and I explained what that means. It means that after the event we can say that this happened because…. It was a rational outcome. But, that gives us no right to say that everything that WILL happen will happen because some mystical force of rationality says it MUST happen. That is precisely what Right or Idealist Hegelianism says – reality is merely the unfolding of the idea. It is you that is advocating this mysticism when you abandon the duty to put forward a programme, a set of solutions, but instead tail the existing movement, as though it must mysteriously gravitate to the correct solution. That was after all what you said about the BNP somehow mysteriously becoming progressive as a result of leading strikes and so on. The most blatant statement of that Idealist version of Hegelianism, of your Economism and Bernsteinian revisionism is given in that last sentence ” above all it means that everything will change its form (when it becomes irrational) and this change will be more than cosmetic.” That is classic Bernstein, classic mechanical materialism. If what you say here is true then we can all just sit at home and have a nice time and wait for this mystical process you describe here to reveal itself. All we have to do is to wait for the existing reality to become irrational, and then it will mystically be transformed!!!!!! But, that is precisely what Marx, Engels, Lenin, Trotsky, Luxemburg and every thinking Marxist rejected. History is not some mystical process such as you describe here whereby Reason simply unfolds. History is made by REAL, living human beings, and unless they act, and act in particular ways, then reality can be as irrational as you like it will not change, or else will change not in a progressive way, but in a thoroughly reactionary way. As Marx puts it in the Manifesto, history does not proceed forwards in a straight line it can also result as it did with the slaves “in the ruination of the contending classes”. Its for that reason that Marx was so concerned about the need to fuse the ideas of Marxism with the working class movement.
”It demands the question why. It is the reason socialists look at crime and explain it by looking at society and why they don’t use terms like evil.”
Yes, they do provide an explanation, but it doesn’t mean that Marxists side with the criminals does it? In fact, given that criminals often form that layer of lumpenproletarians described by Marx, those elements that tended to make up the street-fighting forces of the Nazis and other fascist gangs, Marxists are extremely cautious about such sections of society. Now we don’t describe it as evil, because we are not moralists, but that doesn’t lead us to condone it, especially where the main victims are the real working class, the elements on whose mobilisation the hope of socialism resides.
”In fact it’s not just a concept it is an explanation of reality. Far from putting human beings as innocent bystanders, it puts them at the centre of things;”
Not in the elaboration of it you have given here it doesn’t. In the elaboration you have given here it is some kind of automatic historical process by which the Idea is revealed, the working out of Reason in the material world. In the conception of it you have given here, real human beings are reduced to mere ciphers of the historical process rather than its driving force.
”it means real change will lead to a new society and new rationalities and real changes.”
Precisely the argument that Bernstein gave in his elaboration of exactly the same ideas you present here.
”Applied to Gaza, the fact that Hamas have recently been elected at the expense of Fatah would tell me that it is Fatah that is becoming irrational and Hamas that is becoming rational. If you can’t provide a reasonable explanation as to why this is the case, then I would call that the poverty of Boffy.”
Yes, you can make that case as I said after the event. You can as I said say there is a rational explanation as to why this set of events happened as opposed to some other set of events. The question a Marxist, though is more interested in is – “Is this the set of events that we would have desired to have seen. Does the process we have seen take the cause of the working class forwards or backwards.”
Now for you, as a non-Marxist that question does not arise. As a Bernsteinian your view of history is rather like that of Nostradamus it is already pre-ordained, we can only watch it unfold as bystanders. The question a Marxist would be interested in is not can we explain why Hamas arose, but what lessons can we learn to prevent its further rise, how can we rather promote a revolutionary socialist leadership of the Palestinian people that will provide it with the kind of progressive programme and solutions to its problems that will take it forward rather than backwards.
If we use your method then we would say that well if we look at history we saw the Stalinism arise in Russia for wholly rational reasons, we say Fascism arise first in Italy and then in germany for wholly rational reasons, we saw it arise in Spain and Portugal and other European States, we saw Bonapartist and militarist regimes arise in many parts of the world we have seen clerical-fascism arise in Iran and other parts of the Middle-East and so on. All for rational reasons as you say. We would then have to conclude from your method that Marx and all the others were wrong. What is rational according to you is not the replacement of Capitalism with socialism, but the rise of some form of fascist regime. Thanks, but I’ll stick with Marx, and recognise the need to understand the historical process to change the future, rather than hold some mechanistic and determinist view of a future we can’t change.
”“You could just as well reversed this and said, “Ok so the brits massacred millions of people in its civilising mission and was reactionary but it doesn’t change the fact that it in the end it was progressive” The fact of the latter can’t change the nature of the former.”
”I agree. That is perfectly correct. Your point is?”
”The point is that this way seems to justify mass murder, whereas reversed, it seems to be more critical. I think the fact that you presented it in the reversed form was no accident.”
In that case I would have objected to your reversal of it rather than said I agreed with it, wouldn’t I??????? The statement is wholly reversible, and does not justify mass murder either way!!!! How on Earth can you claim that it does????? Means and ends are two different things. I am quite capable of saying that something is a desirable end without thereby justifying the means used to achieve that end.
”On the Kondratiev Long Wave Cycle and its influence on worker struggle, well I’m afraid ‘A’ level economics was the height of my education in that field, so I am not in a position to comment. My personal experience tells me manual workers are generally more militant than non manual workers. Though of course I’m sure this could change. I suspect Marx’s analysis was of an Industrial proletariat and not the kind of classes we see in our country today.”
I think a look at the number of strike days lost in recent years would demonstrate the contrary. Looked at in terms of union leaderships – though for reasons I’ve gone into elsewhere I wouldn’t pale too much emphasis on this measure – it is the white collar unions such as the Civil Service Unions that have so called revolutionary leaderships. As for Marx, he certainly did analyse manual workers because that was the majority composition of the class at the time, but he also said that the natural workings of Capitalism would lead to the establishment of a large group of white collar workers. In fact, he thought this group could become the largest group in society – and again he’s been proved right. He does not seem to have viewed this as in any way contradicting the basis of his theory or undermining the potential for socialism. In fact, given his view of socialist transformation, given what he says about the basic requirement of the “Civilising Mission” of Capitalism in raising up workers living standards, increasing their leisure-time and their access to education and culture, as being necessary for workers to acquire the tools and techniques by which to construct socialism, I suspect that he would view such a development very positively.
”Firstly, I think you would have to have been on the ground to come to a conclusive position on this. You would have to know the context in which arguments were made and how Searchlight and the SWP reacted to certain positions.”
This is not a question of Searchlight versus the SWP! Again you have sunk back into your usual dichotomous method seeing everything as some kind of contest that has to be fought out between just two camps. You are right you had to be on the ground. That is the point. The local anti-fascists WERE on the ground. They knew precisely what was going on, they knew they had to deal with the issue. The point is the SWP were NOT on the ground. They did what they often do in such situations. They parachuted people into the area from the UAF. They then decided to oppose dealing with the issue for the reasons I have outlined before. The local anti-fascists rejected this and were supported by Searchlight, precisely because those anti-fascists WERE the people on the ground.
”I can understand why such an issue would be of interest/concern to people. I can’t, however, understand why it is a big election issue, other than coming under the general heading of crime. I can only imagine racist motives.”
WHAT?????? You see where your tailing of reactionary politics leads you. Young girls in fairly large numbers were being groomed. It was a concern for local people who had legitimate concern for their daughters. And you want to say nothing about it!!!!! Amazing. That is similar to the reaction you had a while ago about the reactionary politics of the clerical-fascists in Iran and in Gaza, and your response that oh its just a western concern for women and gays. No its not a western concern for women and gays it’s a socialist, and even just bourgeois democratic concern for gays, women basic human rights and civil liberties to which you seem to have absolutely no regard.
”The sexualisation of young girls in our society is rampant, and this has nothing to do with Muslims.”
This is not just sexualisation this is grooming for God’s sake. And in this particular instance it WAS Muslims who were responsible. You can’t expect local people to be fobbed off by your ludicrous suggestion that “Oh its societies fault not the fault of Muslims, because the truth is always concrete as Lenin used to say, and here the truth was it was not society grooming their daughters but a group of Muslim men!!! And it appears you want to simply ignore it!!!!
”Did searchlight extend this to a wider debate about capitalism and sexuality? Was the role of advertising and the media discussed; was the role of the parents debated etc etc? Was this an honest debate?”
This is sophistry of the worst possible kind. What you are asking here is that the actual concrete case be ignored, be covered up in a welter of pseudo-sociological mumbo jumbo. What the people needed here was not some lecture from you about the evils of Capitalism and so on, but a solution to their problem, not some problem with society but this PARTICULAR problem. What you are trying to do again is to present your normal dichotomous view of the world. Look don’t blame these blame them.
”Searchlight said,
“The facts are that the police have investigated 65 cases of grooming in Keighley and that the BNP has been able to make much of the fact that 10 Asian men are currently in prison as a result. This is not racist myth, but stubborn fact.”
"It is a racist myth if you believe them being Asian had anything to do with it.”
The point that Searchlight was making here was that it was not a racist myth that the grooming was being done by Asian men. Your point is irrelevant.
”What about western white people visiting Thailand each year to have sec with young girls, have searchlight investigated this and brought it to the attention of the good people of Keighley?”
Honestly, how ridiculous can you get? Is this what you would have done then? And what reception do you think you would have received from the working class people of Keighley who’s daughters were affected by this? But, what then is the concomitant of this? You think that paedophilia in Thailand is not something that socialists should be concerned with. Or is it okay, to criticise things done by white working class people, but not by Muslims????
”Was the general decadence of our own society debated?”
Really who gives a fuck???? If your house is burning down you do not want someone to come round and engage with you in a philosophical discussion about the role of fire in human development. You want them to help you put out the fire!!!
”This idea of telling workers the truth seems to be about pandering to their prejudices and telling them what they want to hear in order to beat fascists. Fair enough, some may say, but don’t tell me it’s telling workers the truth.”
Really? How is it pandering to prejudices when you manage to get some of those who were affected by that grooming to actually stand up to the BNP, to stand as candidates against them?????? It seems to me that the only person pandering to prejudices here is you. Time and again you reject defence not just of basic socialist principles, but even of basic bourgeois democratic freedoms in order to pander to the prejudices and reactionary ideas of Islam, and again in this post you have again talked only about Muslims e.g. in describing the Arabs living in Israel solely as Muslims as though the two words were interchangeable. I am beginning to think that the reason you don’t give your real name is because in fact you are not a socialist at all, but a representative of some organisation of political-Islam.
”More from Searchlight,
“To us, it is clear that, to beat the BNP, anti-fascists need to have a coherent answer for each "issue," whatever it may be.”
”This means following the BNP agenda and the small faction that support them, they are active, you are reactive. You concentrate all efforts trying to beat what is a very small power and play to their agenda. It places the BNP in a position well above what they are in reality.
With these tactics you may win the odd battle but you will surely lose the war.”
Do you see, you’ve done it again. That simple dichotomous model that you always work with. You are with us or against us, as George Bush put it, seems to be your motto. I criticise Hamas so I must either be an Imperialist or else a supporter of Fatah. I refer to an article in Searchlight that criticised the terrible role played by the SWP in Bradford, so I must be a supporter of Searchlight. No, I’m not, I simply used the information there as evidence of what actually happened. But, your statement that their argument that its necessary to have coherent answers for each issue, means following the BNP agenda is nonsense. Of course, its necessary to be able to refute the arguments put forward by the BNP, but that doesn’t restrict you to only that does it.
My personal view is that the politics both of the UAF and of the anti-fascist movement in general including Searchlight is totally inadequate. Its necessary not just to combat the ideas of the BNP, but to offer workers a coherent, and immediately practical alternatives to the problems they are facing. That could be done to a greater extent by a Working class based anti-fascist movement, even one that encompassed a range of political views. But, it can’t be done by the cross class alliances that constitute the anti-fascist movement, precisely because that cross class makeup precludes any political agreement on those solutions. In reality there is only one political force that can provide a solution, and that is the LP. In my opinion the job of socialists is to work through that medium to begin providing those practical solutions at a grass roots elvel, to workers in their communities and workplaces. I have no problem with the idea of a cross class alliance as a means of opposing the BNP provided the basis of that opposition is clearly understood in advance. I reject the idea that such alliances constitute a Popular Front, because a Popular Front is an administrative or Governmental body, which these organisations clearly are not. But, that means that they can only be restricted to acting to say confront the fascists when they attack minority communities, to mobilise counter-demonstrations to them etc. But, that is about all. For socialists the political response to the BNP must come through the Workers Party.
Boffy,
ReplyDeleteBefore I begin I would like to point out that I often use the word Muslim as shorthand but I recognise the diversity. I do this to try and cut down on the amount of space used.
You said,
“Unfortunately, you seem to have slipped back into your old habit of making wild, unsubstantiated – and totally incorrect – allegations. Can you show me where I made this comment or even suggestion about the withdrawal from Gaza being a grand gesture by Israel?????”….
“And given that I used words like slaughter to describe Israel’s actions in Gaza on top of all that I can only wonder when you say that my position showed “sympathy with Israel’s Gaza onslaught””
I could not read it any other way, Israel had withdrawn from Gaza and yet the Palestinians were still firing rockets, to me this implied some sympathy with Israel’s actions. Now I accept that your position is not generally supportive of the Israeli state but this line of argument began by your accusation that I started from a bigoted position and did not have evidence to back it up.
As for your use of the word slaughter, we have already established that words like slaughter are to you moralistic terms, and that slaughter can lead to progressive outcomes.
You said,
“Why on Earth would Jewish workers NOT want to live side by side with Palestinian and Arab workers “
Good question. Maybe new Prime Minister Mr Netanyahu has the answer.
You said,
“The whoile basis of proletarian policy is that workers should NOT be segregated into ghettoes, into warring communal divides. They should oppose any discriminatory policy of the Israeli State that is against those Palestinian and Arab workers in Jerusalem, but the basis of that opposition should be a fight of workers across the communal divide for decent housing for all. That after all is the answer that socialists give in response to the BNP in this country in response to its calls for British homes for British workers. It certainly is NOT for immigrant workers to alienate themselves from the rest of the British working class by setting itself against it, launching violent attacks on it, and thereby giving the BNP all the ammunition it requires.”
To equate the situation in Palestine to that of immigrants in this country is absurd. It ignores the different historical circumstances, their day to day living experience etc etc etc. Can you give examples of where immigrants are involved in a campaign of attacks against British workers and helped the BNP?
This isn’t the analysis of Marx but of a Marxist fundamentalist.
More from you,
“Your passivity is what flows directly from your Economism and Opportunism. You would be useless in a revolutionary position because you have already positioned yourself right at the back of the working class behind its most reactionary elements”
You want to go from utter oppression, subjugation of a people straight to socialism; I believe the conditions make it impossible for this to occur. The reality is that both sides are more apart than ever and your solution seems more ridiculous. You have positioned yourself in a fantasy world.
It was previously argued,
”This is an even worse analogy than the previous one because we are now comparing two situations where similar tactics were used and cannot, therefore, contrast the tactics as with the Viet Cong. The fact that this is a more similar situation to the Vietnam one could give us a clue why the tactics were similar in the case of the IRA and the Palestinians and were so different with the Viet Cong. I think you’ve made my point for me.”
”What point? The point is that in the case of the Vietnam War a huge anti-war movement was built. In the case of Ireland and Palestine no such movement has been built.”
The point is that the Irish and Palestinians were both subjected to year on year oppression by a neighbouring Oppressor and had the opportunity to widen their struggle, whereas the Viet Cong had no such opportunity and could only fight the opposing army they were at war with. The situations are completely different, hence the differing tactics.
Also, no mass movement for the Palestinians, there you go again with your Eurocentric mindset.
You said,
“No, the tone of my argument is that oppressed peoples have to be given leadership and solutions to their problems that have some chance of success, and which at the same time advance the cause of the working class. The solutions you put forward do neither. Your solutions require largely unarmed or poorly armed peoples to confront heavily armed states.”
Good job Castro or Guevara didn’t listen to your sophistry or we would still have the Batista dictatorship!
You further said,
“Your solution throws workers into the arms of their own reactionary bourgeoisie rather than the proletarian internationalist policy advocated by Lenin of building international workers solidarity in opposition to the bourgeoisie, including and especially your own.”
I broadly agree that socialism needs an internationalist outlook.
I think you have to see situations like the Israel/Palestine one as very exceptional and slavishly following Lenin’s logic in all circumstances, in my view, is not appropriate.
You said,
“The most blatant statement of that Idealist version of Hegelianism, of your Economism and Bernsteinian revisionism is given in that last sentence ” above all it means that everything will change its form (when it becomes irrational) and this change will be more than cosmetic.” That is classic Bernstein, classic mechanical materialism. If what you say here is true then we can all just sit at home and have a nice time and wait for this mystical process you describe here to reveal itself.”
You are reading this as a right Hegelian and coming up with those conclusions. The fact that something becomes irrational means it will start to feel increased antagonism from people, not all of whom will have progressive agendas. It is the job of progressive people to point out the progressive alternatives but this doesn’t mean that alternative will always be successful.
But change will come from the realities on the ground, this will motivate people to take action and these realities have Human sources.
You further said,
“Yes, they do provide an explanation, but it doesn’t mean that Marxists side with the criminals does it?”
Obviously not. But we do have sympathy and understanding with these people and don’t come up with right wing solutions like capital punishment or the birch or whatever, even though this may alienate the workers and play into the hands of the BNP.
Unless you disagree?
You said,
“The question a Marxist would be interested in is not can we explain why Hamas arose, but what lessons can we learn to prevent its further rise, how can we rather promote a revolutionary socialist leadership of the Palestinian people that will provide it with the kind of progressive programme and solutions to its problems that will take it forward rather than backwards.”
Surely to learn these lessons we have to question why Hamas have arisen. If we ignore this question as you seem to be suggesting we will come to incorrect solutions. A revolutionary socialist Palestinian will need to explain how the Palestinians will get decent housing, how it will have fair access to economic resources, e.g. water and how it will not be treated like a second class citizen. I would suggest the whole concept of Zionism needs to be challenged in order for that to happen.
You said,
“If we use your method then we would say that well if we look at history we saw the Stalinism arise in Russia for wholly rational reasons, we say Fascism arise first in Italy and then in germany for wholly rational reasons, we saw it arise in Spain and Portugal and other European States, we saw Bonapartist and militarist regimes arise in many parts of the world we have seen clerical-fascism arise in Iran and other parts of the Middle-East and so on. All for rational reasons as you say. We would then have to conclude from your method that Marx and all the others were wrong. What is rational according to you is not the replacement of Capitalism with socialism, but the rise of some form of fascist regime. Thanks, but I’ll stick with Marx, and recognise the need to understand the historical process to change the future, rather than hold some mechanistic and determinist view of a future we can’t change.”
Thus far, yes, the reality has been that capitalism has not led to socialism and I will not bury my head in the sand and pretend otherwise. As I have said, when something becomes irrational, then yes there are different possibilities that arise as it’s replacement and this is where the fight takes place. All those examples of Fascism have eventually fallen and proved more irrational than what they replaced. As capitalism becomes more and more irrational I will argue that socialism is the only rational alternative.
You said,
“As for Marx, he certainly did analyse manual workers because that was the majority composition of the class at the time, but he also said that the natural workings of Capitalism would lead to the establishment of a large group of white collar workers. In fact, he thought this group could become the largest group in society – and again he’s been proved right. He does not seem to have viewed this as in any way contradicting the basis of his theory or undermining the potential for socialism.”
Yes I wouldn’t argue with this but Marx didn’t experience this class make up and therefore couldn’t have a view on it’s implications for socialism, that is left to the socialists of today.
Now onto the grooming issue,
You said,
“This is not a question of Searchlight versus the SWP! Again you have sunk back into your usual dichotomous method seeing everything as some kind of contest that has to be fought out between just two camps.”
This is how YOU set it up. You claimed the SWP had sunk to anti semitisim in its criticisms of Searchlight.
Now I don’t know the exact details of this grooming issue, I don’t know what the men did or how they were allowed to do it. Was this grooming issue in anyway connected to their ethnicity or religion? Is this common among Asian men?
I recognise that parents are rightly concerned for the welfare of their children and that people who commit crimes can’t be let off because hey society stinks. And yes people have a right to question how these crimes came to be committed and what solutions need to be adopted.
You argued,
“This is not just sexualisation this is grooming for God’s sake. And in this particular instance it WAS Muslims who were responsible. You can’t expect local people to be fobbed off by your ludicrous suggestion that “Oh its societies fault not the fault of Muslims,”….
“This is sophistry of the worst possible kind. What you are asking here is that the actual concrete case be ignored, be covered up in a welter of pseudo-sociological mumbo jumbo.”
But elections are about more than just local issues and all issues should not be debated within these narrow confines.
How fighting elections in this way would get us nearer to socialism god only knows.
This is not sophistry but recognition of the idea of elections.
You said,
“The point that Searchlight was making here was that it was not a racist myth that the grooming was being done by Asian men. Your point is irrelevant.”
So every crime needs to come labelled with the ethnicity of the perpetrator does it, this is relevant to workers is it. This seems more Mien Kampf than Capital.
“You think that paedophilia in Thailand is not something that socialists should be concerned with. Or is it okay, to criticise things done by white working class people, but not by Muslims????”
No, I just think you need to widen the debates, especially when fighting elections. I wouldn’t put it in terms of whites do this and Muslims do the other. I think your sudden racial obsession is a diversion from your usual Marxist fundamentalism.
Now I am uneasy about issues being couched in racial/religious terms and how this can lead to some very disturbing consequences. History if full of precedents for this, the anti Catholic stories of the 17th century (the popish plot etc) and the anti Jewish propaganda in the 20th century, the hysteria whipped up may have included some “truths” or “facts” but I think history shows we have to stand firmly against it.
It was previously argued,
“To us, it is clear that, to beat the BNP, anti-fascists need to have a coherent answer for each "issue," whatever it may be.”
”This means following the BNP agenda and the small faction that support them, they are active, you are reactive. You concentrate all efforts trying to beat what is a very small power and play to their agenda. It places the BNP in a position well above what they are in reality.”
”With these tactics you may win the odd battle but you will surely lose the war.”
”Do you see, you’ve done it again. That simple dichotomous model that you always work with. You are with us or against us, as George Bush put it, seems to be your motto.”
The BNP are never on the back foot are they, they never have to deal with issues brought up by socialists do they. Why is this? Why do the BNP’s half truths, ignorant claims have to be countered? Why are some people absorbing their crap as truths? This is a very important question to consider, because it may mean that these people are not ready to hear your solutions, no matter how brilliantly you articulate them. The prejudice they have may override this.
The question then becomes, how is this prejudice to be defeated?
“Unfortunately, you seem to have slipped back into your old habit of making wild, unsubstantiated – and totally incorrect – allegations. Can you show me where I made this comment or even suggestion about the withdrawal from Gaza being a grand gesture by Israel?????”….
ReplyDelete“And given that I used words like slaughter to describe Israel’s actions in Gaza on top of all that I can only wonder when you say that my position showed “sympathy with Israel’s Gaza onslaught””
”I could not read it any other way, Israel had withdrawn from Gaza and yet the Palestinians were still firing rockets, to me this implied some sympathy with Israel’s actions. Now I accept that your position is not generally supportive of the Israeli state but this line of argument began by your accusation that I started from a bigoted position and did not have evidence to back it up.”
But, its clear from your response here and from your later sophistry that your position DOES begin from a bigoted position, and that it DOES NOT proceed on the basis of evidence, but proceeds by a) attributing statements and positions to me that I have not made, and do not hold, b) then attacking me for those positions, rather than attacking what I have actually said, and c) completely distorting what I have said in order to then try to cover yourself when that has been exposed. Your whole method reminds me not of the way a Marxist proceeds i.e. starting from known facts, and constructing a logical argument, but is rather more that of the religious zealot who holds their beliefs as a matter of faith, and defends them accordingly. Let me show why.
You say, you could read my position in no other way than me saying that Israel had made a “Grand Gesture” in leaving Gaza, and that from this I could be seen in no other way than supporting Israel’s invasion of Gaza in response to the fact that Hamas continued to fire rockets despite this Grand Gesture.
Well. Firstly, your position might be tenable if you could actually show where I had made a statement saying that Israel had made such a “Grand Gesture”. But, as I have already pointed out to you, not only did I not make such a statement, but, in fact, I DID make a statement completely OPPOSITE to that!!! I said,
”Two years ago Israel removed itself from Gaza, both its troops and its settlers. Its reasons for doing so may have been cynical, but its reasons for leaving do not change the fact that it did leave. It left as part of a tacit agreement with Bush that it would effectively have a free hand to continue its more important settlement of the West Bank, a settlement which means that the West Bank could never be a viable independent state, that it could exist as little more than a series of Bantustans. It left knowing that absent Israeli settlers in Gaza it could be freer to respond to attacks coming from Gaza without concern for those settlers being held hostage. It did so in order to give a facile nod in the direction of a sham peace process that was supposed to lead towards a Two States solution, but which no-one other than those who wanted to believe this fiction could have been taken in by.”
See: Lessons Of Gaza
Now I challenge anyone to read that honestly and conclude that it is saying what you claim I have said. I challenge anyone to honestly say that this can be read as me saying that “Israel had made a Grand Gesture”, which justified its attack on Gaza in response to Hamas continuing to fire rockets!!!! Yet, you did read it, because you posted many comments in relation to that post!
Not only does this give the lie to your claim that I proclaimed Israel’s withdrawal from Gaza as some “Grand Gesture”, but the various comments in their about “sham peace”, about it enabling Israel “to respond to attacks coming from Gaza without concern for those settlers being held hostage”, about it being a tacit agreement with Bush, about it being cynical and so on also give the lie to your assertion that from this basis I was siding with that attack on Gaza when it came!!!! But, in other comments I have gone even further in making statements that could not by the honest reader be interpreted as saying or meaning what you claim I have said.
Let me quote some of them:
” Every Marxist must have sympathy with the Palestinians. Our sympathy is always with the oppressed not the oppressor, even where the oppressed - partly as a result of that oppression - appoint reactionary leaders of their struggle.”
” All Marxists should oppose the current attacks by Israel on Gaza,”
(ibid)
” At least Sean Matgamna has, perhaps, answered the question he posed several months ago when he asked “If Israel attacked Iran, on what basis would we condemn it?” Most Marxists knew the answer to that question at the time. Its good to see that Sean is catching up. The problem is that the AWL’s politics, like most of the left, remains at the level not of proletarian internationalism, but of moral indignation.
Yes, Israel’s actions are obscene. The fact that Israel has been using white phosphorous gives the lie to one apologist for Israel who posted to the AWL website that Israel was trying to minimise civilian casualties!!!”
” Moral outrage at such obscenity is understandable and necessary on one level, but for a Marxist it is far from being enough. We are not pacifists. We do not object to war on moral grounds, but on class grounds, we try to show to workers why it is inevitable so long as class society continues.”
”Elsewhere in his piece Sean says that Israel is currently out to destroy Hamas. That is unlikely, the Israeli State needs Hamas. So long as Hamas exists it enables Israel to keep the Palestinians divided between Hamas and Fatah. It will want to significantly weaken Hamas in Gaza to strengthen Fatah and so facilitate further division.”
“The question is does the Israeli State actually want peace? The people who devised the neo-con revolution in the US, for example, advocated the creation of a feeling of external threat in order to justify a strong state. Not only does the current situation in the Middle East of perpetual conflict strengthen the position of the US, but it justifies its relationship with Israel as a strong client in the region acting as a conduit for US interests. It also means that “normal” politics in Israel and most of the region are suspended swamped by a concern over security.”
“It (the Israeli State) clearly thinks it “should” do what it is doing. We might think it “should” stop, but such thoughts are impotent unless we have some means by which of forcing Israel to do what we want it to do. For now we don’t.”
“On the one hand Israel will not allow any such State to be a real state. It will react to any attacks against it in the way it has just done in Gaza.”
“Not even the democratic elections that resulted in a Hamas government were accepted by Israel or its imperialist backers. So long as Israel continued to act in the way it has, by incursions, blockades, and so on the position of organisations such as Hamas would be strengthened. They would argue, not unreasonably, that the state they had was not a real state, that they did not have real independence and so on.”
See: The War in Gaza
So I ask again, how could anyone read those statements honestly, and conclude that they were supportive of an Israeli attack on Gaza???? Yet, you did read them.
“As for your use of the word slaughter, we have already established that words like slaughter are to you moralistic terms, and that slaughter can lead to progressive outcomes.”
But, we have just had a long discussion during which I have demonstrated to you that just because a Marxist can conceive of an end being progressive it does not mean that that Marxist will, therefore, support some reactionary means of achieving that end. I have now on repeated occasions shown you that whilst Marxists may side with some progressive historical force in so far as it is in opposition to some more reactionary force, that in no way requires the Marxist to simply acquiesce in the politics of that force, or to abstain from criticism of it. Yet, you still use as your excuse such an interpretation!!!
“Why on Earth would Jewish workers NOT want to live side by side with Palestinian and Arab workers”
“Good question. Maybe new Prime Minister Mr Netanyahu has the answer.”
And, probably not, but once again you show your propensity to look at things in Nationalistic terms rather than class terms. I raise a question in relation to Jewish and Palestinian workers, and you respond with a flippant remark about the representative of the bourgeoisie, the enemy of both Jewish and Palestinian workers!!!!
“The whole basis of proletarian policy is that workers should NOT be segregated into ghettoes, into warring communal divides. They should oppose any discriminatory policy of the Israeli State that is against those Palestinian and Arab workers in Jerusalem, but the basis of that opposition should be a fight of workers across the communal divide for decent housing for all. That after all is the answer that socialists give in response to the BNP in this country in response to its calls for British homes for British workers. It certainly is NOT for immigrant workers to alienate themselves from the rest of the British working class by setting itself against it, launching violent attacks on it, and thereby giving the BNP all the ammunition it requires.”
”To equate the situation in Palestine to that of immigrants in this country is absurd. It ignores the different historical circumstances, their day to day living experience etc etc etc. Can you give examples of where immigrants are involved in a campaign of attacks against British workers and helped the BNP?
This isn’t the analysis of Marx but of a Marxist fundamentalist.”
I wasn’t suggesting that immigrants WERE engaged in such activity. I WAS pointing out that that is the logical extension of the argument you make in defence of such attacks by Hamas on Jewish workers!!! I was NOT suggesting that the conditions of immigrants in Britain WERE the same as those under which the Palestinians suffer, but there are parallels. The point I was making was that the discrimination and oppression that immigrants suffer in Britain cannot be resolved by the kind of communalism which some on the left such as the SWP advocate, certainly not by the kind of multiculturalism and national cultural autonomy that the Blairites advocate with their reactionary support of “Faith” schools and so on, but can only be resolved as Lenin pointed out by building working class unity across those communal divisions. That is the whole point of the Communist International’s position on the National Question, and it applies as much to the rights of National and Cultural Minorities in Britain as it does to those in Israel/Palestine, as it does in Kosovo, or Ossetia/Georgia/Russia or in Tibet and elsewhere.
“Your passivity is what flows directly from your Economism and Opportunism. You would be useless in a revolutionary position because you have already positioned yourself right at the back of the working class behind its most reactionary elements”
“You want to go from utter oppression, subjugation of a people straight to socialism; I believe the conditions make it impossible for this to occur. The reality is that both sides are more apart than ever and your solution seems more ridiculous. You have positioned yourself in a fantasy world.”
No, I believe that a Marxists task is to point out that that oppression cannot be dealt with progressively outside a proletarian struggle. All historical evidence demonstrates that attempts to do otherwise simply result in the working class exchanging one form of oppression for another sometimes worse form of oppression. The Iranian Revolution is one example, the removal of Saddam Hussein by imperialism is another. Workers should not place their faith in these alien class forces as providing them with a solution. They should rely only on themselves and a proletarian struggle. But, more than that. I am not surprised that you come to the conclusion that you do, because your methodology and politics throughout have seemed to me to be that of Stalinist National Socialism rather than Proletarian International Socialism. Therein lies the difference, because I stand on the ground of Marx, Lenin and Trotsky and the idea of the Permanent Revolution, the concept that in the modern world the tasks of even the bourgeois revolution – in this case the resolution of questions of national minority rights – can only progressively, and consistently be resolved by the working class, and can only be resolved within the framework of proletarian struggle, which will inevitably flow over into a conflict between workers and bosses. Your position, on the contrary, is the oft disastrously failed theory of Stalin, that of the Stages Theory of history.
”What point? The point is that in the case of the Vietnam War a huge anti-war movement was built. In the case of Ireland and Palestine no such movement has been built.”
“The point is that the Irish and Palestinians were both subjected to year on year oppression by a neighbouring Oppressor and had the opportunity to widen their struggle, whereas the Viet Cong had no such opportunity and could only fight the opposing army they were at war with. The situations are completely different, hence the differing tactics.”
Of course, the Viet Cong had opportunity to widen their struggle. They had the North Vietnamese state for one thing, which could have organised attacks on the US, and on its client regimes in the region. They didn’t and a large ant-war movement could be built precisely because all of those US citizens, many of whom had their own reason to oppose the US State, were able to say, “Why should we send soldiers to fight people who are doing us no harm?” There were plenty of people in Britain, and even in the North of Ireland who could recognise in the Civil Rights Movement something which appealed to basic bourgeois democratic freedoms, the idea that the Catholic Minority should not have been discriminated against in elections, housing, education and Jobs, but who were lost once it became a matter of the IRA launching attacks on ordinary British workers. There are plenty of people over the years in Israel who have supported the peace movement, and who recognise the right of Palestinians to basic democratic rights, but their voice is naturally drowned out under conditions in which many ordinary Israeli workers see themselves under daily attack. I would suggest to you that the actions last week of the Irish Labour Movement in uniting both Catholic and Protestant workers in opposition to a return to sectarian violence offer a much better, much more progressive solution than does your solutions which divides workers on the basis of encouraging such sectarianism.
“Also, no mass movement for the Palestinians, there you go again with your Eurocentric mindset.”
I meant that there was no mass movement for the Palestinians in Israel compared to the anti-war movement in the US against the Vietnam War, but in reality there is no mass movement in support of the Palestinians even in the wider context that you have interpreted it. The Arab Street, will often complain about the plight of the Palestinians, but the truth is that none of them are part of any kind of movement that can offer a solution to the Palestinians problems. Often they are simply used and manipulated by their own reactionary Arab nationalist governments. And in a number of instances such as in Lebanon, and in Jordan it has been Arabs who have attacked Palestinians who were seen as bringing them a load of trouble they didn’t need. In fact, its that background that is one of the biggest arguments in favour of the need for a region wide solution to the problem, why there is a crying need to build a meaningful Middle Eastern Labour Movement.
“No, the tone of my argument is that oppressed peoples have to be given leadership and solutions to their problems that have some chance of success, and which at the same time advance the cause of the working class. The solutions you put forward do neither. Your solutions require largely unarmed or poorly armed peoples to confront heavily armed states.”
“Good job Castro or Guevara didn’t listen to your sophistry or we would still have the Batista dictatorship!”
Except that Castro and Guevara were not people leading a few unarmed or poorly armed people against a heavily armed state!!!! The Batista regime was corrupt, and decaying. It had, if it ever had it, lost the support of the majority of the people, and Castro was able to mobilise superior force against it. That is precisely the point I was making!!!! In fact, if you take the actual examples of the strategy you advocate – that of Guevarism in South America – it has been disastrous. It has led thousands of people who could have been good militant revolutionaries down a terroristic blind alley, it has divided Labour Movements, it has legitimised right-wing governments’ anti-civil liberties actions and had no positive effects. I wouldn’t give my backing to them, but in comparison the developments in Venezuela, Brazil, Chile and other similar states have provided much greater benefits to workers. And if we go back to Cuba, we can again see the folly of your politics – the replacement of oppression for the workers and peasants by Batista with the oppression of the National Socialist politics of Castro and co.
“Your solution throws workers into the arms of their own reactionary bourgeoisie rather than the proletarian internationalist policy advocated by Lenin of building international workers solidarity in opposition to the bourgeoisie, including and especially your own.”
”I broadly agree that socialism needs an internationalist outlook.
I think you have to see situations like the Israel/Palestine one as very exceptional and slavishly following Lenin’s logic in all circumstances, in my view, is not appropriate.”
What do you mean that you “broadly agree”??? Socialism is internationalist or it is nothing. Unless it bases itself precisely on internationalism then socialism is what it says – National Socialism. And National Socialism is no real socialism at all, it is the enemy of the working class. If you want to argue that Israel/Palestine is very exceptional then you have to say why. Why is it different from the many, many instances of National Minorities trapped in just the same way within the old Tsarist Empire, or the many old Monarchies of Central Europe during the 19th and early 20th centuries? All of them hugely oppressed and discriminated against, suffering pogroms similar to those the Palestinians face, in fact to some extent worse because in those cases it was Russian chauvinists not just the Russian State who launched those pogroms. Yet, we saw in the 19th century Marx and Engels arguing clearly against the kind of politics you advocate, arguing against the establishment of new class states or for support for reactionary nationalist movements. And in the 20th century we saw the Marxists in precisely those situations arguing for the position I have outlined, for the building of single Labour Movement organisations across the National and Communal divide, for those Labour Movements to address the needs of the minorities as a central part of their programme to progress the interests of workers as a whole. I agree that we should not simply quote Lenin as an alternative to thinking about the precise problem that we are considering, but nor should we ignore the lessons of the past, certainly we should not simply abandon basic principles about forming cross class alliances on the basis of nationalist or communalist politics. But, that is precisely what you do.
“The most blatant statement of that Idealist version of Hegelianism, of your Economism and Bernsteinian revisionism is given in that last sentence ” above all it means that everything will change its form (when it becomes irrational) and this change will be more than cosmetic.” That is classic Bernstein, classic mechanical materialism. If what you say here is true then we can all just sit at home and have a nice time and wait for this mystical process you describe here to reveal itself.”
You are reading this as a right Hegelian and coming up with those conclusions. The fact that something becomes irrational means it will start to feel increased antagonism from people, not all of whom will have progressive agendas. It is the job of progressive people to point out the progressive alternatives but this doesn’t mean that alternative will always be successful.
But change will come from the realities on the ground, this will motivate people to take action and these realities have Human sources.”
I am not reading it as any kind of Hegelian. I am reading it as a Marxist, and what you said previously and have added to here is not Marxism, is not materialism, but is Bernsteinian revisionism and determinism. What you leave out here, is precisely what Bernstein and the other determinist interpreters of Marx leave out, one of the “realities on the ground” is precisely those “human sources”. Of course, the progressive alternative will not always be successful, but that is no reason for Marxists to abandon the task of advocating it, of organising for it to the best of their ability, of struggling for it, because in doing so their actions are precisely the means by which those material realities are changed. The problem is that you have forsaken that task. Instead you see things in a religious fatalistic manner. What is, is what had to be in your politics. For a Marxist, however, the mantra is what will be will depend upon our ability to shape it! You go from your religious view to an acceptance that because Hamas have become the leadership of the Palestinians that reflects some underlying reality, and so its necessary to simply tail along behind that reality, behind that historical process. You do not seem to question whether that “appearance” could itself be out of compliance with the “reality”. Does Hamas REALLY reflect the future interests of the Palestinians, or is that just a mirage? It is precisely because a Marxist does not proceed from such a fatalistic view does not confuse appearance with reality that a Marxist could never arrive at such a conclusion. The Marxist by uncovering the laws of history is able to uncover what the real interests of the Palestinians are, and thereby what is required for those interests to be achieved. They can never be achieved via a reactionary organisation such as Hamas!!!
“Yes, they do provide an explanation, but it doesn’t mean that Marxists side with the criminals does it?”
”Obviously not. But we do have sympathy and understanding with these people and don’t come up with right wing solutions like capital punishment or the birch or whatever, even though this may alienate the workers and play into the hands of the BNP.
Unless you disagree?”
No we wouldn’t advocate those things, but we would advocate action to prevent the criminal from inflicting crime or injury upon workers. We would advocate that workers set up their own local defence squads and forms of policing their estates etc. to defeat the criminals without placing any faith in the bourgeois state to achieve those ends. And the means employed by workers to suppress such criminal behaviour could themselves by quite ruthless where needed to be so.
“The question a Marxist would be interested in is not can we explain why Hamas arose, but what lessons can we learn to prevent its further rise, how can we rather promote a revolutionary socialist leadership of the Palestinian people that will provide it with the kind of progressive programme and solutions to its problems that will take it forward rather than backwards.”
“Surely to learn these lessons we have to question why Hamas have arisen. If we ignore this question as you seem to be suggesting we will come to incorrect solutions. A revolutionary socialist Palestinian will need to explain how the Palestinians will get decent housing, how it will have fair access to economic resources, e.g. water and how it will not be treated like a second class citizen. I would suggest the whole concept of Zionism needs to be challenged in order for that to happen.”
I wasn’t suggesting that you could ignore how Hamas had arisen, and my previous statements I thought made that clear. The point is that a Marxist is not interested in why Hamas arose, purely for some academic reason, but only in order to understand how its further development could be prevented, how a socialist leadership could be developed in its place. In relation to your further points, surely the question that arises is not how PALESTINIANS, will get “decent housing, how it will have fair access to economic resources, e.g. water and how it will not be treated like a second class citizen”, but how workers in general in that region will achieve those things. And the reality is that a solution to those questions can ONLY be progressively and consistently found on the basis of a united proletarian struggle on the basis of both democratic and socialist demands. Yes, opposition to Zionism will be an important aspect of such a programme, but by far not the only one. Just as significant is opposition to Arab Nationalism, to Pan-Islamism and other reactionary ideas. Central must be the idea of building working class unity, and of building a Middle Eastern Labour Movement that is able to fight for working class interests and demands, rather than being simply cannon fodder for assorted reactionary Nationalist bourgeois forces.
“If we use your method then we would say that well if we look at history we saw the Stalinism arise in Russia for wholly rational reasons, we say Fascism arise first in Italy and then in Germany for wholly rational reasons, we saw it arise in Spain and Portugal and other European States, we saw Bonapartist and militarist regimes arise in many parts of the world we have seen clerical-fascism arise in Iran and other parts of the Middle-East and so on. All for rational reasons as you say. We would then have to conclude from your method that Marx and all the others were wrong. What is rational according to you is not the replacement of Capitalism with socialism, but the rise of some form of fascist regime. Thanks, but I’ll stick with Marx, and recognise the need to understand the historical process to change the future, rather than hold some mechanistic and determinist view of a future we can’t change.”
“Thus far, yes, the reality has been that capitalism has not led to socialism and I will not bury my head in the sand and pretend otherwise. As I have said, when something becomes irrational, then yes there are different possibilities that arise as it’s replacement and this is where the fight takes place. All those examples of Fascism have eventually fallen and proved more irrational than what they replaced. As capitalism becomes more and more irrational I will argue that socialism is the only rational alternative.”
This is crude determinism of the worst kind. Socialism has been the only rational solution for at least a century. The reason that National Socialism failed in all of those instances, why it “proved more irrational than what they replaced” is precisely because it is not a rational solution. Its possible to explain its rise by rational means to say “fascism arose BECAUSE of x, y, z” just as it is possible to say that “Hamas arose by x,y,z”, but that does not mean that it was a rational solution any more than that can be said for Hamas. That is precisely the point I was making about your use and misuse of the Hegelian concept of “the real is rational”. What is rational only becomes real if real human beings act in order to make it so. You do not do that by simply tailing the historic process acting as the cheerleader for those forces that are thrown up into leadership as you with Hamas for instance. You do that by uncovering the historical laws, and developing a programme that the revolutionary agent – the working class – can mobilise around, and take that historic process forward. And that requires the very opposite of the politics you advocate. It requires setting the working class against ALL of its enemies including those such as Hamas that you want to tail behind. It requires building a working class movement that relies only on itself, and advances those demands and causes which further its interests, not those of some alien class.
“As for Marx, he certainly did analyse manual workers because that was the majority composition of the class at the time, but he also said that the natural workings of Capitalism would lead to the establishment of a large group of white collar workers. In fact, he thought this group could become the largest group in society – and again he’s been proved right. He does not seem to have viewed this as in any way contradicting the basis of his theory or undermining the potential for socialism.”
“Yes I wouldn’t argue with this but Marx didn’t experience this class make up and therefore couldn’t have a view on it’s implications for socialism, that is left to the socialists of today.”
I agree, but I can see nothing in the conditions of white collar workers, which differentiate them from manual workers. In fact, as I said, to an extent the very things that Marx referred to in his view of the “Civilising Mission” of Capitalism, which typify the white collar worker compared to the manual worker – high education level, greater access to leisure and culture etc. – are particularly those things, which Marx outlined as being necessary for the full development of working class consciousness, of recognising its specific interests as a class in opposition to those of the bosses.
“This is not a question of Searchlight versus the SWP! Again you have sunk back into your usual dichotomous method seeing everything as some kind of contest that has to be fought out between just two camps.”
“This is how YOU set it up. You claimed the SWP had sunk to anti semitisim in its criticisms of Searchlight.”
But, the fact that I criticised the SWP for the fact that it had sunk into anti-Semitism in its attack on Searchlight did not at all commit me to supporting Searchlight did it???? That is precisely the point I am making. You do this time and again. If there are two parties to a dispute, and I criticise one of them, you automatically assume that that means me giving support to the other. In the 1950’s I would have criticised the McCarthyite witch hunt in the US. It would in no way have meant I would have supported the Stalinists, or even that I would have stopped my criticism of them!!!!
“Now I don’t know the exact details of this grooming issue, I don’t know what the men did or how they were allowed to do it. Was this grooming issue in anyway connected to their ethnicity or religion? Is this common among Asian men?”
I don’t think this is relevant, and is in danger of itself moving on to racist ground. The BNP, of course, DO claim that such grooming is being done by Muslims as part of some conspiracy, is part of the fact that Islam has no regard for people outside its faith. I think that many Muslims would challenge such assumptions, but I am not enough of an expert in the actual circumstances to be able to say whether there were any bases for making such statements. I would, personally, be in favour of challenging such assumptions, because I think they are similar to the kinds of stories put forward by anti-Semites about Jews drinking Christian blood. The point is that socialists should NOT avoid dealing with such situations where they arise just because those involved are members of a Minority Community! They should not try to deny or hide such facts simply on the basis that discussion of them MIGHT give material to the BNP, or more correctly in the case of Keighley might alienate some of those in the community who the SWP sought to recruit.
“I recognise that parents are rightly concerned for the welfare of their children and that people who commit crimes can’t be let off because hey society stinks. And yes people have a right to question how these crimes came to be committed and what solutions need to be adopted.”
The point is that the SWP opposed discussion of this not because “hey society stinks”, but because they thought that a) discussion might play into the hands of the BNP and b) because they sought to recruit from the Muslim Community through their Respect front organisation such discussion would alienate potential recruits. Just as you have done throughout this discussion they subordinated all aspects of their socialist politics to the interests of opposing all criticism of Islam, and of individual reactionary acts by Muslims. It is a combination of the worst kind of Opportunism and the worst kind of sectarianism.
“This is not just sexualisation this is grooming for God’s sake. And in this particular instance it WAS Muslims who were responsible. You can’t expect local people to be fobbed off by your ludicrous suggestion that “Oh its societies fault not the fault of Muslims,”….
“This is sophistry of the worst possible kind. What you are asking here is that the actual concrete case be ignored, be covered up in a welter of pseudo-sociological mumbo jumbo.”
“But elections are about more than just local issues and all issues should not be debated within these narrow confines.”
These were Local Elections, and so the focus WAS on local issues. But, the question of the election is really irrelevant. The point was not just to deal with this issue, because it was necessary to deny the BNP any opportunity to capitalise upon it, but that this was an issue, about which socialists SHOULD in any case have been concerned, for the simple reason that we are concerned about ALL oppression. Again, it is symptomatic of your responses and writing throughout that in every instance you have subordinated all other forms of oppression to your concern solely for the oppression of Muslims. You have shown scant regard for the oppression of women or gays by Muslims for instance, writing it off in the case of that oppression by Hamas or the Iranian regime as merely the concern of western socialists. Its what makes me suspect that you are not a socialist but an advocate of Political Islam.
“How fighting elections in this way would get us nearer to socialism god only knows.
This is not sophistry but recognition of the idea of elections.”
Marxists do not believe that socialism is possible on the basis of bourgeois democratic elections. But, they don’t fail to recognise the importance of those elections in societies where bourgeois democratic illusions still hold vast sway over the working class. The point is, as stated above the real issue here was not one of electoralism but of socialists dealing with an issue which should have been concern for all socialists, and WAS of concern to the local working class.
“The point that Searchlight was making here was that it was not a racist myth that the grooming was being done by Asian men. Your point is irrelevant.”
“So every crime needs to come labelled with the ethnicity of the perpetrator does it, this is relevant to workers is it. This seems more Mien Kampf than Capital.”
Not at all, but it is ludicrous to oppose discussion of an issue that WAS of concern to local workers, and SHOULD have been of concern to socialists, because it involved the oppression of young women, simply because those that committed the offence were Muslims!!!!
“You think that paedophilia in Thailand is not something that socialists should be concerned with. Or is it okay, to criticise things done by white working class people, but not by Muslims????”
“No, I just think you need to widen the debates, especially when fighting elections. I wouldn’t put it in terms of whites do this and Muslims do the other. I think your sudden racial obsession is a diversion from your usual Marxist fundamentalism.”
But, it was you that wanted to say you can’t blame Muslim men for being involved in grooming because look white Men engage in child sex in Thailand!!!! I don’t call that widening the debate I call it avoiding the debate!!! Its not me that has found a sudden racial obsession its you that framed this in racial terms by trying to provide a basis for avoiding discussion of the actual case. Its you that continually speaks only of the oppression of Muslims, and who ignores the oppression of women, workers, gays and so on, in order to focus solely on that one struggle.
“Now I am uneasy about issues being couched in racial/religious terms and how this can lead to some very disturbing consequences. History if full of precedents for this, the anti Catholic stories of the 17th century (the popish plot etc) and the anti Jewish propaganda in the 20th century, the hysteria whipped up may have included some “truths” or “facts” but I think history shows we have to stand firmly against it.”
But, you don’t do that by avoiding the discussion of uncomfortable facts. For example, what would have been the point in trying to deny that there were many Jewish financiers at the beginning of the 20th Century. Doing so would have simply played into the hands of the fascists who were using such facts to construct the theory of the worldwide Jewish Conspiracy. It was necessary to accept the fact of that, explain why it was so, but to thereby dismantle the conspiracy theory on the basis of the whole truth, of the number of Jews who WERE NOT financiers, of those who were poor, who were oppressed and who for those reasons were highly represented in the socialist movement committed to the overthrow of the rule of those financiers Jewish or otherwise.
( “To us, it is clear that, to beat the BNP, anti-fascists need to have a coherent answer for each "issue," whatever it may be.”
”This means following the BNP agenda and the small faction that support them, they are active, you are reactive. You concentrate all efforts trying to beat what is a very small power and play to their agenda. It places the BNP in a position well above what they are in reality.”
”With these tactics you may win the odd battle but you will surely lose the war.”
”Do you see, you’ve done it again. That simple dichotomous model that you always work with. You are with us or against us, as George Bush put it, seems to be your motto.”)
“The BNP are never on the back foot are they, they never have to deal with issues brought up by socialists do they. Why is this? Why do the BNP’s half truths, ignorant claims have to be countered? Why are some people absorbing their crap as truths? This is a very important question to consider, because it may mean that these people are not ready to hear your solutions, no matter how brilliantly you articulate them. The prejudice they have may override this.
The question then becomes, how is this prejudice to be defeated?”
You have in fact failed to include my statement from the previous post which answered the point you have made here. I wrote,
“My personal view is that the politics both of the UAF and of the anti-fascist movement in general including Searchlight is totally inadequate. Its necessary not just to combat the ideas of the BNP, but to offer workers a coherent, and immediately practical alternatives to the problems they are facing. That could be done to a greater extent by a Working class based anti-fascist movement, even one that encompassed a range of political views. But, it can’t be done by the cross class alliances that constitute the anti-fascist movement, precisely because that cross class makeup precludes any political agreement on those solutions. In reality there is only one political force that can provide a solution, and that is the LP. In my opinion the job of socialists is to work through that medium to begin providing those practical solutions at a grass roots level, to workers in their communities and workplaces.”
I felt that your statement about “The prejudice they have may override this” smacked of a moralistic view. It was almost accepting the idea that some people are “good” and some are “evil” except it was saying some people are just “prejudiced”, beyond hope. The fact is that bourgeois ideas including reactionary ideas such as racism flow from the material conditions in which people find themselves, and how they find ways of dealing with those conditions. The reality is that if you want to change the ideas, you have to change the conditions. I hope in the next week or so to produce my blog about Co-operatives, which will give some further ideas on just how that can be done.
Boffy,
ReplyDeleteYou said,
“But, its clear from your response here and from your later sophistry that your position DOES begin from a bigoted position, and that it DOES NOT proceed on the basis of evidence, but proceeds by a) attributing statements and positions to me that I have not made, and do not hold, b) then attacking me for those positions,”
This is exactly what you do; you always imply false logic to my statements. You take them out of context and twist them to build your argument.
This is how I first corresponded with you,
“You say Gaza is not occupied, when Israel totally controls what goes in and what comes out, has warships off its coast and war planes over its skies and moves its tanks in and out with impunity.”
”And another thing why is it that the only people fighting western Capitalism are arab reactionaries -surely the Spartacus of their day.”
You responded with,
“Cluffy complains that I said that Gaza wasn't occupied. Actually, what I said was that Hamas argument that its reason for killing Israeli civilians with its rockets was Israeli Occupation did not stand up, because Israel had ended its Occupation.”
Now I don’t buy your argument here because I have a different definition of occupied to you and I therefore do not buy the Israeli argument that because of their action the Palestinians should stop their fight. I think they are entirely justified in continuing their struggle, despite what you say.
You want to label this difference in definition as me being a religious zealot relying on faith and you being the inheritor of “true” Marxism.
You said,
“But, we have just had a long discussion during which I have demonstrated to you that just because a Marxist can conceive of an end being progressive it does not mean that that Marxist will, therefore, support some reactionary means of achieving that end. I have now on repeated occasions shown you that whilst Marxists may side with some progressive historical force in so far as it is in opposition to some more reactionary force, that in no way requires the Marxist to simply acquiesce in the politics of that force, or to abstain from criticism of it.”
But you have criticised me for being moralistic and then you use moralistic words like slaughter, you have also lauded the British civilising mission in India. I just make the point that in this light your moral criticisms of Israel seem a little superficial and hollow.
It was previously argued,
“Why on Earth would Jewish workers NOT want to live side by side with Palestinian and Arab workers”
“Good question. Maybe new Prime Minister Mr Netanyahu has the answer.”
”And, probably not, but once again you show your propensity to look at things in Nationalistic terms rather than class terms. I raise a question in relation to Jewish and Palestinian workers, and you respond with a flippant remark about the representative of the bourgeoisie, the enemy of both Jewish and Palestinian workers!!!!”
I am looking at things in class terms; I am wondering why Israeli workers give their support to their “enemies”. You seem to want to put your head in the sand and ignore this class alliance based on race/religion. That was the point of my “flippant” remark.
You said,
“I wasn’t suggesting that immigrants WERE engaged in such activity. I WAS pointing out that that is the logical extension of the argument you make in defence of such attacks by Hamas on Jewish workers!!! I was NOT suggesting that the conditions of immigrants in Britain WERE the same as those under which the Palestinians suffer, but there are parallels.”
I was pointing out that immigrants were not involved in such attacks but the Palestinians were and this has to do with fact that the situations are entirely different. Clearly demonstrating that your analysis here was seriously flawed and has nothing to do with Marx.
You further said,
“The point I was making was that the discrimination and oppression that immigrants suffer in Britain cannot be resolved by the kind of communalism which some on the left such as the SWP advocate, certainly not by the kind of multiculturalism and national cultural autonomy that the Blairites advocate”
What’s your problem with multiculturalism and please try to avoid the same arguments as Melanie Phillips, as I do not want to go down that road again?
You said,
“Of course, the Viet Cong had opportunity to widen their struggle. They had the North Vietnamese state for one thing, which could have organised attacks on the US, and on its client regimes in the region. They didn’t and a large ant-war movement could be built precisely because all of those US citizens, many of whom had their own reason to oppose the US State, were able to say, “Why should we send soldiers to fight people who are doing us no harm?”
If we turn this “logic” around then we could demand of our Bourgeoisie leaders that they stop attacking people because if they did this then those nasty foreigners would say “Why should we send clerical fascists to fight people who are doing us no harm?”.
You went on to say,
“I would suggest to you that the actions last week of the Irish Labour Movement in uniting both Catholic and Protestant workers in opposition to a return to sectarian violence offer a much better, much more progressive solution than does your solutions which divides workers on the basis of encouraging such sectarianism.”
It did take an act of “terrorism” to achieve this and we will see how cosmetic this turns out to be but yes, the trade unions heroically showed the Northern Irish communities the best way to improve their lives because sectarianism has clearly impoverished them both. But it did take some kind of genuine peace process to reach this moment and for the same thing to happen in the Middle East, Israel need to make compromises they seem totally unwilling to make. This peace process involved the Democratic Unionists, who make Hamas look like the Salvation Army.
This would seem to support my “Stalinist stages of history” approach and call into question your Marxist fundamentalist ideas for the Middle East.
You then said,
“I meant that there was no mass movement for the Palestinians in Israel compared to the anti-war movement in the US against the Vietnam War, but in reality there is no mass movement in support of the Palestinians even in the wider context that you have interpreted it. The Arab Street, will often complain about the plight of the Palestinians, but the truth is that none of them are part of any kind of movement that can offer a solution to the Palestinians problems.”
I think the Arab streets have more support for the Palestinians than the Vietnamese had in the US.
You said,
“In fact, if you take the actual examples of the strategy you advocate – that of Guevarism in South America – it has been disastrous.”…..
“I wouldn’t give my backing to them, but in comparison the developments in Venezuela, Brazil, Chile and other similar states have provided much greater benefits to workers. And if we go back to Cuba, we can again see the folly of your politics – the replacement of oppression for the workers and peasants by Batista with the oppression of the National Socialist politics of Castro and co.”
Guevarism has been a great inspiration for the current progressive developments in South America, so it’s not been as disastrous as you make out.
What makes Cuba different to Venezuela, both regimes want to empower the poor through Education and fairer wealth distribution; this is why both regimes have such close ties. They are allies not enemies. In fact Venezuela is very supportive of the “clerical fascists” in Iran and is closer to my position than yours.
You said,
“What do you mean that you “broadly agree”??? Socialism is internationalist or it is nothing. Unless it bases itself precisely on internationalism then socialism is what it says – National Socialism. And National Socialism is no real socialism at all, it is the enemy of the working class. If you want to argue that Israel/Palestine is very exceptional then you have to say why.”
Because Israelis came to move from Europe and North America on mass and occupied land that was occupied by a third party. This was not some economic migration, a natural movement of people, this was an en block movement of people based on a Zionist idea, justified by an ancient religious text and brought to fruition by the Nazi holocaust. I think this makes it an exceptional case. This is what I mean by broadly agree, I was trying to distance myself from your Marxist fundamentalism, though I could have put it better.
You argued,
“Does Hamas REALLY reflect the future interests of the Palestinians, or is that just a mirage?It is precisely because a Marxist does not proceed from such a fatalistic view does not confuse appearance with reality that a Marxist could never arrive at such a conclusion. The Marxist by uncovering the laws of history is able to uncover what the real interests of the Palestinians are, and thereby what is required for those interests to be achieved. They can never be achieved via a reactionary organisation such as Hamas!!!”
I never said Hamas represented the future interests of the Palestinians and no doubt it will become irrational. But under current conditions it is rational; I want to change these conditions precisely because I want to see Hamas become irrational. You can’t do that by your crude labels or even by “uncovering” the “laws” of History but by the unqualified support of the Palestinian struggle, this is the best way to defeat Hamas.
“We would advocate that workers set up their own local defence squads and forms of policing their estates etc. to defeat the criminals without placing any faith in the bourgeois state to achieve those ends. And the means employed by workers to suppress such criminal behaviour could themselves by quite ruthless where needed to be so.”
Yes but we would point out the dangers of vigilantism and so along with defence squads, workers would need their own Law courts and criminal science departments. Unless you feel a return to witch hunting would be a progressive step.
You said,
“This is crude determinism of the worst kind. Socialism has been the only rational solution for at least a century”
Yes but I wasn’t around then, I will argue for Socialism now because I am alive now.
“That is precisely the point I was making about your use and misuse of the Hegelian concept of “the real is rational”. What is rational only becomes real if real human beings act in order to make it so. You do not do that by simply tailing the historic process acting as the cheerleader for those forces that are thrown up into leadership as you with Hamas for instance.”
I never claimed what you accuse me of. I made it clear that when a system becomes irrational then it will face increased antagonism and conflict and real Human beings will decide what replaces it, just as real human beings determined Stalinist Russia, Nazi Germany, Zionist Israel and Hamas. To explain and contrast all these different situations in the context of “the real is the rational” would take too long.
You said,
“In fact, as I said, to an extent the very things that Marx referred to in his view of the “Civilising Mission” of Capitalism, which typify the white collar worker compared to the manual worker – high education level, greater access to leisure and culture etc. – are particularly those things, which Marx outlined as being necessary for the full development of working class consciousness, of recognising its specific interests as a class in opposition to those of the bosses.”
So would Marx have been delighted to see the defeat of the Miners?
Anyway we have to take a critical view of Marx here, the exact opposite has happened in practice, people are more stupefied than ever and class consciousness has never been weaker.
On the grooming issue I think we are both too ignorant of the facts to have a considered argument. I will leave the truth telling to you and I will concentrate on fighting racism.
Also I do not represent political Islam; I am an atheist, I DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD!
“But, its clear from your response here and from your later sophistry that your position DOES begin from a bigoted position, and that it DOES NOT proceed on the basis of evidence, but proceeds by a) attributing statements and positions to me that I have not made, and do not hold, b) then attacking me for those positions,”
ReplyDelete”This is exactly what you do; you always imply false logic to my statements. You take them out of context and twist them to build your argument.”
But, I haven’t accused you of false logic here!!! Anyone can be guilty of that, and it can be discussed rationally. What I object to is not that you do not make a logical argument, but that you begin your argument on the basis of attributing statements and positions to me that I have never made, and do not hold!!!! As I said, when you say you could not conclude anything other than that I had made some statement about Israel making a “Grand Gesture” by its withdrawal from Gaza, I am bound to ask how you can say that when there were so many statements from me that totally contradicted this view, and you have been unable to supply even one that would substantiate your allegation!!!! That is what I object to!
”This is how I first corresponded with you,
“You say Gaza is not occupied, when Israel totally controls what goes in and what comes out, has warships off its coast and war planes over its skies and moves its tanks in and out with impunity.”
”And another thing why is it that the only people fighting western Capitalism are Arab reactionaries -surely the Spartacus of their day.
You responded with,”
“Cluffy complains that I said that Gaza wasn't occupied. Actually, what I said was that Hamas argument that its reason for killing Israeli civilians with its rockets was Israeli Occupation did not stand up, because Israel had ended its Occupation.”
“Now I don’t buy your argument here because I have a different definition of occupied to you and I therefore do not buy the Israeli argument that because of their action the Palestinians should stop their fight. I think they are entirely justified in continuing their struggle, despite what you say.”
But, I have never suggested that the Palestinians should not continue their struggle!! I have simply here made the obvious point that the argument for firing rockets at Israeli civilians made by Hamas did not stand up, because the Occupation had ended. True, there was a blockade of Gaza, and that issue had to be addressed by Marxists, but even that could not be addressed outside the question of continued rocket attacks, of Hamas coup within Gaza and so on. The point is that at this point this was still open for rational discussion. It was the statements you then made subsequent to these opening remarks that left that field and led you on to the terrain of simply issuing unjustified and unsubstantiated statements about my position. For example, you said in your next post,
“I don't see you criticizing Israel as being reactionary, which makes me think you have a soft spot for the Bourgeoisie.”
But, as I said to you at the time an honest appraisal of what I had said even in the post you were responding to could not lead anyone to that conclusion. I had in fact, disproved your assertion in the original blog when I wrote,
“It left as part of a tacit agreement with Bush that it would effectively have a free hand to continue its more important settlement of the West Bank, a settlement which means that the West Bank could never be a viable independent state, that it could exist as little more than a series of Bantustans. It left knowing that absent Israeli settlers in Gaza it could be freer to respond to atatcks coming from Gaza without concern for those settlers being held hostage. It did so in order to give a facile nod in the direction of a sham peace process that waas supposed to leqad towards a Two States solution, but which no-one other than those who wanted to believe this fiction could have have been taken in by.”
and,
“But, that history has other lessons. Having gone to great lengths to advocate democracy to the people of the Middle East, the US, was the first to reject the democratic elections in Palestine that brought Hamas to power.”
and,
“US imperialism supports democracy only provided that democracy produces the results it desires. A basic element of self-determination is that a people should be free to elect the rulers it chooses. The US rejection of the election of Hamas shows that such a basic requirement of self-determination would never be granted to a Palestinian State.”
and,
“Every Marxist must have sympathy with the Palestinians. Our sympathy is always with the oppressed not the oppressor, even where the oppressed - partly as a result of that oppression - appoint reactionary leaders of their struggle.”
and,
“In fact, there situation is really a grossly exaggerated equivalent of the situation that Northern Irish Catholics were in, deprived of equal rights with their Protestant neighbours. The first requirement for addressing the needs of the Northern Irish Catholics was not a demand for a separate state, or even joining with the Southern State, but was to address that immediate problem of inequality and oppression.”
Yet, despite all of those statements setting out why Marxists must support the oppressed Palestinians as against their oppressor – the Israeli State – you still made the statement,
“ “I don't see you criticizing Israel as being reactionary, which makes me think you have a soft spot for the Bourgeoisie.”
That is what I object to the attribution to me of positions, which I clearly do not hold, and which any honest reader of my comments could clearly see I did not and do not hold. Its that, which leads me to say that your position begins not with an honest appraisal of my position and a rational argument against it, but begins from a bigoted view in which nothing other than complete support for the politics and actions of Hamas and the other clerical-fascist organisations will do, and without which you automatically assign to people some necessary support for the opponents of those groups. Its that, which leads me to characterise your politics as those of a religious zealot, because its as though for you these groups are the representatives of God, and any criticism of them is tantamount to criticism of God, is tantamount to heresy.
“But, we have just had a long discussion during which I have demonstrated to you that just because a Marxist can conceive of an end being progressive it does not mean that that Marxist will, therefore, support some reactionary means of achieving that end. I have now on repeated occasions shown you that whilst Marxists may side with some progressive historical force in so far as it is in opposition to some more reactionary force, that in no way requires the Marxist to simply acquiesce in the politics of that force, or to abstain from criticism of it.”
“But you have criticised me for being moralistic and then you use moralistic words like slaughter, you have also lauded the British civilising mission in India. I just make the point that in this light your moral criticisms of Israel seem a little superficial and hollow.”
But, let’s look at the context in which that was made. Firstly, I pointed out to you my use of those terms and many other similar attacks on the actions of Israel in response to your again unsubstantiated claim that I had not criticised Israel!!!! Moralistic or not, you can hardly say that me describing Israel’s actions as slaughter and so on did not constitute criticism!!!! Secondly, you again fail to mention the context in which I had spoken about slaughter, or to give the full quote. What I actually said was,
“Yes, Israel’s actions are obscene. The fact that Israel has been using white phosphorous gives the lie to one apologist for Israel who posted to the AWL website that Israel was trying to minimise civilian casualties!!! But, war is obscene, and brutalised individuals sent to war by their state do commit obscene acts. So long as Capitalism exists there will be war, and there will be such obscenity. As Sean himself states this action has a logic for the Israeli State, just as all wars have logic for the ruling classes that launch them, even if it is an obscene logic. Moral outrage at such obscenity is understandable and necessary on one level, but for a Marxist it is far from being enough. We are not pacifists. We do not object to war on moral grounds, but on class grounds, we try to show to workers why it is inevitable so long as class society continues….
“Our task is not to mirror the pacifists and simply condemn war for its obscenity, but to explain its causes within class society, and thereby to offer a programme that can lead workers to a solution.”
So yes, I was saying precisely that terms such as slaughter, or the other descriptions of Israel’s obscenities – again hardly grounds for describing me as being soft on the bourgeoisie or of not criticising Israel – were moralistic, and “Moral outrage at such obscenity is understandable and necessary on one level”, but those comments were made precisely in the context of CRITICISING the moral politics of the AWL, moral politics which mirror your own. You proceed from those politics, and conclude “something must be done”, and so you give your uncritical support to Hamas. The AWL conclude “something must be done”, and give their support to the notion of a “Two State Solution”, to be brought about by Zionism, Imperialism and the Arab bourgeoisie. Neither of you locate your moral outrage within the context of class struggle, of an understanding of the class nature of the oppression and the acts committed, and therefore, of the need for a CLASS solution to the problem. For both you and the AWL it is your moral politics as opposed to class politics that leads you away from the Marxist method and programme, away from Proletarian Internationalism, and leads you into the camp of the bourgeoisie either wearing its democratic imperialist mask or its clerical-fascist mask.
“Why on Earth would Jewish workers NOT want to live side by side with Palestinian and Arab workers”
“Good question. Maybe new Prime Minister Mr Netanyahu has the answer.”
”And, probably not, but once again you show your propensity to look at things in Nationalistic terms rather than class terms. I raise a question in relation to Jewish and Palestinian workers, and you respond with a flippant remark about the representative of the bourgeoisie, the enemy of both Jewish and Palestinian workers!!!!”
“I am looking at things in class terms; I am wondering why Israeli workers give their support to their “enemies”. You seem to want to put your head in the sand and ignore this class alliance based on race/religion. That was the point of my “flippant” remark.”
No you are not. Your flippant remark was based on your acceptance of the idea that there is some natural national alliance between Jewish workers and the Jewish Capitalist State. On the basis of that view you make no distinction between Jewish workers and that State, which is why you can disregard those workers when you consider Hamas firing rockets at them, why you can disregard their interests when you argue for the creation of some new Palestinian State over their bones. You do not at all wonder why Israeli workers give their support to their “enemies” – which you place in quotes presumably because you do not believe the Israeli ruling class are the enemies of Israeli workers. On the contrary you take such an alliance between workers and bosses as read because your position is not that of a Marxist but that of a Nationalist shown by your statement that could have come as easily from a member of the BNP that the reason for this class alliance is “based on race/religion”!!!! Amazing. You do not question whether that alliance could be the result of the dominance of bourgeois ideas in a Capitalist society, you do not question whether that alliance might have something to do with the surrounding states having conducted several wars against Israel with the intention of wiping it off the map, of Iran threatening to do so again, whether the daily rocket attacks, homicide bombings etc. might actually cause Israeli workers to feel that they too like the Palestinians are in a state of siege, and all those things push them in the direction of the one force they see as their sole protector – the Israeli State! Again, you are quick to demand recognition of the factors that lead to the rise of Hamas, but show no similar regard to understand the motivations of Israeli workers. If you did begin from a class perspective you would show concern for both, and understand that the way to deal with both – the Palestinians support for Hamas, and the Israeli workers support for the Israeli State lead to the need for the same solution, an orientation not to your or the AWL’s nationalistic solutions, but to a proletarian internationalist solution, to the building of links between Israeli and Palestinian and Arab workers, for a programme of democratic and socialist demands to fuse those workers together against their common enemy.
“I wasn’t suggesting that immigrants WERE engaged in such activity. I WAS pointing out that that is the logical extension of the argument you make in defence of such attacks by Hamas on Jewish workers!!! I was NOT suggesting that the conditions of immigrants in Britain WERE the same as those under which the Palestinians suffer, but there are parallels.”
“I was pointing out that immigrants were not involved in such attacks but the Palestinians were and this has to do with fact that the situations are entirely different. Clearly demonstrating that your analysis here was seriously flawed and has nothing to do with Marx.”
And I was pointing out that there are parallels, and that immigrant workers cannot resolve their problems of oppression by separating from let alone attacking British workers just as Palestinian workers cannot resolve their problems of oppression by separating from and attacking Israeli workers. That is precisely the position of Marx, and of Lenin, whereas your position is that of some reactionary nationalist that sees the main division not as class, but as the BNP claim one of “race/religion”, as you stated above. You do not ask what programme is needed to undermine any alliance based on “race/religion”, but take such an alliance as being natural and given, and then simply tag along behind the consequences of it, hence your support for the consistent nationalists of Hamas, who you see as being the “rational” representatives of the Hegelian “reality” expressed in the historic process now unfolding not as a struggle between contending classes, but of contending nations, or “races/religions”. A thoroughly reactionary National Socialist politics.
“The point I was making was that the discrimination and oppression that immigrants suffer in Britain cannot be resolved by the kind of communalism which some on the left such as the SWP advocate, certainly not by the kind of multiculturalism and national cultural autonomy that the Blairites advocate”
“What’s your problem with multiculturalism and please try to avoid the same arguments as Melanie Phillips, as I do not want to go down that road again?”
Multicultarism is a thoroughly reactionary idea. It is nothing more than the current term for what Lenin and the Communist International called “Cultural National Autonomy”, the idea that workers within a given state should be divided one from another on the basis of some supposed innate and inherent cultural differences between them. All cultures are the cultures of the ruling class, and all are reactionary, some more reactionary than others. Marxists have no reason to advocate either the separation of the working class along these cultural lines, or the acceptance of any of these cultures as legitimate, because they are all means of oppressing the working class, of legitimising the ruling class. Marxists are interested not in multi-culturalism, but in the fostering of one single working class culture that represents the needs and aspirations of the working class in opposition to all those ruling class cultures.
Again as far as I am aware Melanie Phillips does not advocate a revolutionary working class culture, nor cite Lenin and the Comintern as the reason for doing so. Of course, given your reactionary bourgeois nationalist view of the working class being divided along lines of “race/religion” I can understand why you would be in favour of such a reactionary idea, but yet again you simply demonstrate how little you know of these debates held within the Communist Movement over the last 100 years, particularly, and ironically perhaps, in relation to the demands of some Jewish socialists for such “multiculturalism”/cultural national autonomy. Yet again you show how little you have in common with Marxism.
“Of course, the Viet Cong had opportunity to widen their struggle. They had the North Vietnamese state for one thing, which could have organised attacks on the US, and on its client regimes in the region. They didn’t and a large ant-war movement could be built precisely because all of those US citizens, many of whom had their own reason to oppose the US State, were able to say, “Why should we send soldiers to fight people who are doing us no harm?”
“If we turn this “logic” around then we could demand of our Bourgeoisie leaders that they stop attacking people because if they did this then those nasty foreigners would say “Why should we send clerical fascists to fight people who are doing us no harm?”.
Funny, I thought that that was precisely what we do do? I thought that that was exactly what the ant-war demonstrations in the US did do during the 1960’s, what the US dockworkers did last year in blacking supplies to US forces in Iraq and so on!!!!! It is in fact, what Israeli socialists do in Israel and elsewhere to oppose the actions of the Israeli State in its actions in Palestine. But, the point is, as Trotsky pointed out, ultimately, the working class cannot dictate the foreign policy of the bourgeois state, or control its military. Only by overthrowing that State and the workers assuming power can that happen, and it is Marxists duty to point out that fact in relation to all of these ant-war movements.
“I would suggest to you that the actions last week of the Irish Labour Movement in uniting both Catholic and Protestant workers in opposition to a return to sectarian violence offer a much better, much more progressive solution than does your solutions which divides workers on the basis of encouraging such sectarianism.”
“It did take an act of “terrorism” to achieve this and we will see how cosmetic this turns out to be but yes, the trade unions heroically showed the Northern Irish communities the best way to improve their lives because sectarianism has clearly impoverished them both. But it did take some kind of genuine peace process to reach this moment and for the same thing to happen in the Middle East, Israel need to make compromises they seem totally unwilling to make. This peace process involved the Democratic Unionists, who make Hamas look like the Salvation Army.
This would seem to support my “Stalinist stages of history” approach and call into question your Marxist fundamentalist ideas for the Middle East.”
The terrorist act most certainly was not designed to bring that about though was it???? It was designed to do the exact opposite to foster sectarian division, just as Hamas rockets aimed at Jewish workers is aimed at that conclusion!!!! Your claim that the DUP make Hamas look like the Salvation Army is ridiculous. The DUP, for all its reactionary politics does not oppress women in the way that Hamas does, does not call for gays to be murdered on the streets, does not send young children to act as homicide bombers and so on, and even in terms of bourgeois democracy is far preferable to Hamas. Yes, it did require a genuine peace process that required compromise on both sides. It demonstrates that imperialism CAN facilitate democratic change – though, of course, the demands of the Nationalists have still not yet, been satisfied – and that such democratic revolutions can occur without the need for proletarian revolution. The fact, that this CAN happen is no reason for Marxists to advocate such a means of bringing about such change, because the fact remains that the only force capable of bringing about such change consistently in a progressive manner, which serves the interests of the workers is the working class itself.
It is possible that something similar CAN happen in the Middle East. It is possible that US Imperialism WILL conduct a process alongside the Israeli State, and the Arab Bourgeoisie to create a Palestinian State. But, for the reasons I have given elsewhere I think that is far less likely than the resolution of the situation in Northern Ireland, and will provide no progressive solution for Arab and Jewish workers. It CAN happen, it MAY happen, that is no reason for Marxists to pin their hopes on it, to advocate it or support it. The only progressive solution remains one based on the concept of Permanent Revolution, and on building international working class unity. Any such solution, will leave workers still oppressed, still exploited having simply exchanged one form for another.
“I meant that there was no mass movement for the Palestinians in Israel compared to the anti-war movement in the US against the Vietnam War, but in reality there is no mass movement in support of the Palestinians even in the wider context that you have interpreted it. The Arab Street, will often complain about the plight of the Palestinians, but the truth is that none of them are part of any kind of movement that can offer a solution to the Palestinians problems.”
“I think the Arab streets have more support for the Palestinians than the Vietnamese had in the US.”
Not the same parallel. The ant-Vietnam opposition in the US was to the actions of the US, the action in the Arab Street is not against the Arab Nationalist regimes!
“In fact, if you take the actual examples of the strategy you advocate – that of Guevarism in South America – it has been disastrous.”…..
“I wouldn’t give my backing to them, but in comparison the developments in Venezuela, Brazil, Chile and other similar states have provided much greater benefits to workers. And if we go back to Cuba, we can again see the folly of your politics – the replacement of oppression for the workers and peasants by Batista with the oppression of the National Socialist politics of Castro and co.”
“Guevarism has been a great inspiration for the current progressive developments in South America, so it’s not been as disastrous as you make out.
It may have been an inspiration, but all those bourgeois regimes in Latin America previously cited ditched Guevarrism in favour of bourgeois democratic processes. Those that have continued with Guevarrist terrorist tactics have made no headway whatsoever, and have in fact, set the revolutionary movement back.
“What makes Cuba different to Venezuela, both regimes want to empower the poor through Education and fairer wealth distribution; this is why both regimes have such close ties. They are allies not enemies. In fact Venezuela is very supportive of the “clerical fascists” in Iran and is closer to my position than yours.”
Marxists do not make their assessment of the class nature of States based on subjective criteria such as, “both regimes want to empower the poor through Education and fairer wealth distribution”. Hitler and Mussolini claimed to want to do that too. For a Marxist the criteria is which class rules socially, and that is dependent upon the economic and social relations within the society. In Cuba, the revolution abolished Capitalist relations of production, and along with it the Capitalist and Landlord classes. It made the working class the ruling social class, though its rule was exercised not through its own political rule, but through the rule of the Stalinist state and party bureaucracy, a state and party bureaucracy tied to the National Socialist politics of Stalinism. No such revolution in Venezuela has occurred capitalist economic and social relations continue to dominate, and the Capitalist class remains the thereby the dominant social class. It exercises its rule through its control of the State, despite the political regime of Chavez who is himself tied to sections of the National bourgeoisie. His regime has some of the elements of the Bonapartist regime of Cardenas in Mexico in the 1930’s, and some elements of a Left Social Democracy. Given that in a Bonapartist State there is a closer fusion of State and Governmental power than exists in Venezuela where the State is still firmly in the hands of the bourgeoisie, I would characterise the regime as closer to the Left-Social Democratic than towards the Bonapartist. Either way, Venezuela remains a Capitalist State, whereas in Cuba, despite the various moves back towards the market, the state remains a deformed Workers State. In the former the State rests upon the bourgeoisie, in the latter upon the working class.
As far as I am aware I never said that Cuba and Venezuela were enemies. That a bourgeois nationalist regime in Venezuela should be supportive of the bourgeois nationalist regime in Iran is no surprise either. The whole basis of such nationalist politics is the pursuance of a policy in the “National” interest, hence the National Socialist policy of Stalin in the interests of building “Socialism in One Country” to form an alliance with Nazi Germany. It is the fact, that such political regimes pursue such polices based upon National interest, and will form alliances with reactionary regimes of one form or another in order to further that end, which characterises Nationalist politics, whether it be bourgeois Nationalist or National Socialist.
“What do you mean that you “broadly agree”??? Socialism is internationalist or it is nothing. Unless it bases itself precisely on internationalism then socialism is what it says – National Socialism. And National Socialism is no real socialism at all, it is the enemy of the working class. If you want to argue that Israel/Palestine is very exceptional then you have to say why.”
“Because Israelis came to move from Europe and North America on mass and occupied land that was occupied by a third party. This was not some economic migration, a natural movement of people, this was an en block movement of people based on a Zionist idea, justified by an ancient religious text and brought to fruition by the Nazi holocaust. I think this makes it an exceptional case. This is what I mean by broadly agree, I was trying to distance myself from your Marxist fundamentalism, though I could have put it better.”
That doesn’t change the fact that socialism is international or it is nothing. The fact that 60 years ago Israel was created by effectively an act of force is not something new either as you claim. It is simply a more recent example, of the way most nation states have been created. Take France. It was an area comprising around 200 different nationalities. A Germanic tribe – The Franks – settled in North-Eastern France, and over a period of time conquered all the other tribes and nations within what was Gaul, thereby creating France as a Nation. As late as the last century there was no single French language spoken throughout the whole of the State. No Marxist would argue that because France was established on the basis of such force, of the subjugation of the native peoples that France should be broken up, that the descendants of the Franks hunted down, and thrown off the land they occupied, and so on. Nor would anyone suggest hunting down the descendants of the Norman invaders of Britain to the same end, and so on.
I would not have supported the Zionist project for the reasons I have set out elsewhere, but the State of Israel is as much a fact of history as is the British State, the French State, or many of the other states of quite recent origin such as Italy, Germany or those in the Balkans. Marxists are not like the bloke on that old Sci-Fi series “Quantum Leap”, whose task is “to put right what once was wrong”, but to deal with the reality as it is, and to advocate politics which further the interests of the working class as a whole. Simply bearing a grudge against Israel and Israelis for some past action is no part of Marxist politics, it is no basis on which to frame the politics of today.
“Does Hamas REALLY reflect the future interests of the Palestinians, or is that just a mirage?It is precisely because a Marxist does not proceed from such a fatalistic view does not confuse appearance with reality that a Marxist could never arrive at such a conclusion. The Marxist by uncovering the laws of history is able to uncover what the real interests of the Palestinians are, and thereby what is required for those interests to be achieved. They can never be achieved via a reactionary organisation such as Hamas!!!”
“I never said Hamas represented the future interests of the Palestinians and no doubt it will become irrational. But under current conditions it is rational; I want to change these conditions precisely because I want to see Hamas become irrational. You can’t do that by your crude labels or even by “uncovering” the “laws” of History but by the unqualified support of the Palestinian struggle, this is the best way to defeat Hamas.”
Hamas do not represent the current let alone future interests of Palestinians. On that basis they are already irrational, its just that appearance and reality are not in alignment. Moreover, you do not further the process of making that reality manifest, by refusing to criticise the reactionary politics of Hamas. Moreover, unqualified support for the Palestinian struggle does not mean giving unqualified support for Hamas, which is only one organisation within that struggle. Nor does unqualified support mean uncritical support. The task of a Marxist is precisely to provide leadership by offering such criticism within the context of giving support. You can never change the conditions, never undermine the positions of Hamas, never further the interests of the working class, because you do none of those things, you fail to distinguish between the Palestinians as a people and Hamas as a political organisation, you fail to tell the truth about such organisations or about the tactics being used, you fail to advocate any kind of working class perspective, and you vilify real socialist that do those things. You place yourself outside the camp of the workers and inside the camp of the workers enemies.
“We would advocate that workers set up their own local defence squads and forms of policing their estates etc. to defeat the criminals without placing any faith in the bourgeois state to achieve those ends. And the means employed by workers to suppress such criminal behaviour could themselves by quite ruthless where needed to be so.”
“Yes but we would point out the dangers of vigilantism and so along with defence squads, workers would need their own Law courts and criminal science departments. Unless you feel a return to witch hunting would be a progressive step.”
The whole point about workers democracy is that it combines Executive functions with judicial and legislative functions. I don’t think workers on an estate would need criminal science departments to decide whether someone had acted against workers interests on the estate by thieving, anti-social behaviour or whatever. Yes, there is a danger of vigilantism, there is a danger of workers being guilty of excesses and of making mistakes. That is all part of learning to become a new ruling class. The alternative is to leave things in the hands of the old ruling class if you are afraid of such things.
“This is crude determinism of the worst kind. Socialism has been the only rational solution for at least a century”
“Yes but I wasn’t around then, I will argue for Socialism now because I am alive now.”
But, if your argument were correct then in that hundred years Capitalism should have become more and more irrational to the point where it should have caused its destruction long ago. It did not for the reasons I have outlined. History does not move according to the crude determinist laws you have ascribed.
“That is precisely the point I was making about your use and misuse of the Hegelian concept of “the real is rational”. What is rational only becomes real if real human beings act in order to make it so. You do not do that by simply tailing the historic process acting as the cheerleader for those forces that are thrown up into leadership as you with Hamas for instance.”
“I never claimed what you accuse me of. I made it clear that when a system becomes irrational then it will face increased antagonism and conflict and real Human beings will decide what replaces it, just as real human beings determined Stalinist Russia, Nazi Germany, Zionist Israel and Hamas. To explain and contrast all these different situations in the context of “the real is the rational” would take too long.”
But, you do not explain what determines the mechanism by which these human beings do determine what replaces it. In fact, your position is exactly as I described it, and flows from your Hegelian conception. You end up in a vicious circle. On the one hand you argue that reality creates a certain set of conditions all of which according to you are rational because they exist. What happens then depends upon the actions of individuals, but you offer us no basis for understanding why these individuals act in this way rather than that other than again that the outcome of these decisions is rational because it is real. But, these actions then create a new set of condition, which are rational because they exist, and so on. Within this context everything that exists is rational because it exists, all history is one set of unchangeable events one after another and there is no possibility of changing events in a particular direction. Individuals can raise arguments, but according to your scenario in only in the context of what actually exists and is real. So Hamas are real, and arguing for support of Hamas will make them irrational you claim. On that basis should you not be arguing for Capitalism for the Tories or the Republicans because they are real and rational, and by doing so you will hasten them becoming irrational????
“In fact, as I said, to an extent the very things that Marx referred to in his view of the “Civilising Mission” of Capitalism, which typify the white collar worker compared to the manual worker – high education level, greater access to leisure and culture etc. – are particularly those things, which Marx outlined as being necessary for the full development of working class consciousness, of recognising its specific interests as a class in opposition to those of the bosses.”
“So would Marx have been delighted to see the defeat of the Miners?”
No, of course not because he would support the workers in a struggle with the bosses. However, Marx would have pointed out in a similar way to his argument with Weston, or in his Letter to Ruge about such struggles, their limitation. He would have pointed out that ultimately whatever the outcome of such individual struggles so long as things remained on that level rather than the workers going beyond it to establish ownership of the means of production then the Capitalists would win, because divisions within the workers would weaken them. The Capitalist can always withhold his Capital and still live, whilst the worker can only withhold his Labour for so long. The Capitalist can introduce machinery to replace workers and so on. And so Marx would not have been at all a Luddite in favour of opposing progress, especially where that progress could take workers out of dirty dangerous jobs, and where production of one commodity was inefficient and held back the potential for better use of the labour employed and a consequent improvement in workers conditions. Marx was horrified at the starvation of the hand-loom weavers, but it didn’t lead him to advocate smashing up weaving machines.
“Anyway we have to take a critical view of Marx here, the exact opposite has happened in practice, people are more stupefied than ever and class consciousness has never been weaker.”
But, that is because the historical process is not the Hegelian idealism or the crude determinism you present. The working class more than ever constitutes a class in itself, but the transformation of that process into it becoming a class for itself requires other factors. It requires the material conditions of the workers to change at least in part so that they workers can see some potential for a future society run along different lines. It requires that the reality of its conditions be revealed to it, and the lessons of its struggles codified to it, and presented as a programme of action. So Marx argued essentially for two things alongside that day to day Trade Union struggle by which the workers kept body and soul together. He argued for the workers to establish Co-operatives both as bases of their own economic power and as powerful tools for explaining to workers how such a new society was possible. For example, in his Instructions to Delegates to the Congress of the First International he wrote:
” 5.
Co-operative labour
It is the business of the International Working Men's Association to combine and generalise the spontaneous movements of the working classes, but not to dictate or impose any doctrinary system whatever. The Congress should, therefore, proclaim no special system of co-operation, but limit itself to the enunciation of a few general principles.
(a) We acknowledge the co-operative movement as one of the transforming forces of the present society based upon class antagonism. Its great merit is to practically show, that the present pauperising, and despotic system of the subordination of labour to capital can be superseded by the republican and beneficent system of the association of free and equal producers.
(b) Restricted, however, to the dwarfish forms into which individual wages slaves can elaborate it by their private efforts, the co-operative system will never transform capitalist society. to convert social production into one large and harmonious system of free and co-operative labour, general social changes are wanted, changes of the general conditions of society, never to be realised save by the transfer of the organised forces of society, viz., the state power, from capitalists and landlords to the producers themselves.
(c) We recommend to the working men to embark in co-operative production rather than in co-operative stores. The latter touch but the surface of the present economical system, the former attacks its groundwork.
(d) We recommend to all co-operative societies to convert one part of their joint income into a fund for propagating their principles by example as well as by precept, in other words, by promoting the establishment by teaching and preaching.
(e) In order to prevent co-operative societies from degenerating into ordinary middle-class joint stock companies (societes par actions), all workmen employed, whether shareholders or not, ought to share alike. As a mere temporary expedient, we are willing to allow shareholders a low rate of interest.”
In addition, Marx argued the need for the Marxists to work alongside the workers going through the struggle, and helping them to organise and understand the class struggle, an to develop a political programme to advance their class cause, and their class consciousness, in particular to do this by working with the workers in their Party. But, Marxists have done neither of these things, particularly over the last 80 years. They have shunned the idea of building Co-operatives as proposed by Marx and the International here, and instead of working alongside the workers in their day to day struggles in the Workers Party, they have instead hived themselves off into their own sectarian organisations where they can content themselves with talking about some future revolution with like minded people, normally few of which are real workers.
Boffy,
ReplyDeleteYou said,
“But, I have never suggested that the Palestinians should not continue their struggle!!”
Yes you have, you have advised them to stop their current struggle and follow your joint worker struggle with the Israeli workers. You have told them to stop firing rockets into Israel, therefore trying to dictate the actual form the struggle takes.
Then you continued,
“True, there was a blockade of Gaza, and that issue had to be addressed by Marxists, but even that could not be addressed outside the question of continued rocket attacks, of Hamas coup within Gaza and so on.”
Well if you want to call it a blockade, fair enough but this adds weight to the Hamas argument for continuing its struggle and doesn’t weaken it as you suggested.
I said,
“I don't see you criticizing Israel as being reactionary, which makes me think you have a soft spot for the Bourgeoisie.”
Well your only original reply to this was that Israel used white phosphorous which you equated as being reactionary and which I disputed. I have, however, already accepted that after much probing I do see that you are critical of Israel.
You said,
“But begins from a bigoted view in which nothing other than complete support for the politics and actions of Hamas and the other clerical-fascist organisations will do, and without which you automatically assign to people some necessary support for the opponents of those groups.”
I never said I support the politics of Hamas and the reason I suspected you of supporting Israel was your statement about Gaza not being occupied and that Hamas had no reason for firing rockets, which I reasonably (but inaccurately) took to mean that you felt the Israeli assault on Gaza was justified to prevent the rocket attacks.
It doesn’t matter what context you used the word slaughter or obscene or any other moralistic phrases, your views on moralist arguments lead me to believe your own moral indignation must be hollow / superficial.
The AWL and I recognise that for the class struggle to take shape and become a reality, these interim stages/solutions are necessary. It is because we are in the camp of reality and you are in the camp of Marxist fundamentalism.
You said,
“Your flippant remark was based on your acceptance of the idea that there is some natural national alliance between Jewish workers and the Jewish Capitalist State. On the basis of that view you make no distinction between Jewish workers and that State,”
Not a natural alliance but a real one that needs to be broken.
You further said,
“You do not at all wonder why Israeli workers give their support to their “enemies” – which you place in quotes presumably because you do not believe the Israeli ruling class are the enemies of Israeli workers.”
I do wonder and I believe it is related to the history/ideology of Zionism and the beliefs that flow from this, such as the Arabs are inferior etc etc. The various wars and bombings have only consolidated this belief.
You presumed wrong, as usual, about me believing the Israeli ruling class is not the enemy of Israeli workers, I put it in quotes because the Israeli workers themselves do not believe this. So the rest of your BNP analogy is bollocks.
You then said,
“If you did begin from a class perspective you would show concern for both, and understand that the way to deal with both – the Palestinians support for Hamas, and the Israeli workers support for the Israeli State lead to the need for the same solution, an orientation not to your or the AWL’s nationalistic solutions, but to a proletarian internationalist solution, to the building of links between Israeli and Palestinian and Arab workers, for a programme of democratic and socialist demands to fuse those workers together against their common enemy.”
We do both begin from a class perspective but one that is rooted in the real world and not a 19th century text book. We believe your programme can only come to fruition by going through a number of intermediate stages first.
You falsely accused me of,
"That is precisely the position of Marx, and of Lenin, whereas your position is that of some reactionary nationalist that sees the main division not as class, but as the BNP claim one of “race/religion”
But as I have said, I do not see it in those terms but the Israeli workers do.
Ok you have avoided comparison with Melanie Phillips and provided a Marxist description of “multiculturalism”, which would look fine in a textbook. But if we can look at the real world for a second, how exactly does this fostering of a working class culture take place, what facts do we tell the workers, what form does it take, when does this fostering take place, within current society or in a transitional society etc etc etc.????
You said,
“It demonstrates that imperialism CAN facilitate democratic change – though, of course, the demands of the Nationalists have still not yet, been satisfied – and that such democratic revolutions can occur without the need for proletarian revolution. The fact, that this CAN happen is no reason for Marxists to advocate such a means of bringing about such change,”
Firstly it demonstrates that Imperialism will have to clean up its own mess sooner or later, not the rather flattering facilitate argument you use here.
The peace process has allowed for the possibility that politics in Northern Ireland will move beyond sectarianism to class politics, this was achieved by creating a solution from the real conditions of society at that time and not some utopian society that you imagine. The “terrorist” Guevara tactics that you decry was actually born out of the injustices of the North and the reality that peaceful protest would not achieve any real change and that a joint workers struggle was an impossibility given the real conditions. Now of course things have moved on but there are still more obstacles to overcome if the battle can take the class shape that you and I would argue for. The difference between us is that you believe these obstacles and the ones in the past were not real obstacles and I believe that they were. Hence you accuse me of a “Stalinist stages theory”. It also shows that Permanent revolution is divorced from the real battles of everyday life, in the case of Northern Ireland you talk about some imaginary process when the real process is being played out in front of everyone and creating some real benefits. You occupying a position outside this reality can only alienate yourself from the real struggle, i.e. real people.
You then said,
“The only progressive solution remains one based on the concept of Permanent Revolution, and on building international working class unity. Any such solution, will leave workers still oppressed, still exploited having simply exchanged one form for another”
Ultimately I agree with this but with the differences I have already highlighted.
“Marxists do not make their assessment of the class nature of States based on subjective criteria such as, “both regimes want to empower the poor through Education and fairer wealth distribution”. Hitler and Mussolini claimed to want to do that too. For a Marxist the criteria is which class rules socially,”
Fair point. However, I think you have to explain why Cuba and Venezuela have such close ties. You describe both states as they stand now but do not imagine where they are heading. Chavez is attempting to empower the lower classes to facilitate their struggles for the future and has a similar ideology as Castro. They recognise their motivations are the same, not something they would recognise with Hitler or Mussolini I suspect.
The reason I say Israel is an exceptional case, is not to justify punishing the Israelis or hunting them down, it is to support my “stages” theory and not your permanent revolution solution. I am saying your solution will not work in these exceptional cases.
You said,
“Yes, there is a danger of vigilantism, there is a danger of workers being guilty of excesses and of making mistakes. That is all part of learning to become a new ruling class. The alternative is to leave things in the hands of the old ruling class if you are afraid of such things.”
I accept this but we should argue for due process and not assume workers will not be on our side. I guess workers will have debates just like present society has them. I know which side I will stand on.
You said,
“But, if your argument were correct then in that hundred years Capitalism should have become more and more irrational to the point where it should have caused its destruction long ago. It did not for the reasons I have outlined. History does not move according to the crude determinist laws you have ascribed.”
I guess the memory of all those “failed” communist states will have to be a distant memory for socialism to fully recover, especially in the west. This is a real rational reason (one of many) why its destruction did not happen. Though I do not want to get into a debate about this, as it would mean going over the history of the entire 20th century.
You said,
“What happens then depends upon the actions of individuals, but you offer us no basis for understanding why these individuals act in this way rather than that other than again that the outcome of these decisions is rational because it is real. But, these actions then create a new set of condition, which are rational because they exist, and so on. Within this context everything that exists is rational because it exists, all history is one set of unchangeable events one after another and there is no possibility of changing events in a particular direction.”
I don’t think it is saying this exactly. Yes there is a trend/movement of history in a particular direction, unless some global disaster were to strike I don’t think England will ever return to the middle ages, but this direction is not a straight line. The idea is based on the presumption that people will act in their own interest, not an outlandish proposition I would contend.
You then said,
“Individuals can raise arguments, but according to your scenario in only in the context of what actually exists and is real.”
Yes I would say this. Can you off the top of your head provide an argument for something that does not exist, be it a system or an idea. This is the reason why the micro chip was not invented by a member of a tribe in the jungle. It also explains why Aristotle didn’t come up with the Labour theory of value.
Finally you said,
“But, Marxists have done neither of these things, particularly over the last 80 years. They have shunned the idea of building Co-operatives as proposed by Marx and the International here,”
Yes I would agree with this fact but the question is why have Marxist shunned this?
I have never seen one left organisation even use the word Co-operative. In fact the first I heard about co-operatives being to do with left politics was by reading your articles.
“But, I have never suggested that the Palestinians should not continue their struggle!!”
ReplyDelete“Yes you have, you have advised them to stop their current struggle and follow your joint worker struggle with the Israeli workers. You have told them to stop firing rockets into Israel, therefore trying to dictate the actual form the struggle takes.”
But, that is not telling the Palestinians to stop their struggle is it, nor is it even me saying that I will only support the Palestinians if they follow the advice I offer!!! It is me saying I support the Palestinians in their struggle against oppression, a struggle that must continue until that oppression is overcome, but that a) I will not give political support to the reactionary politics of Hamas who forms just one part of that struggle b) I will reserve the right as any Marxist must do to criticise ways of conducting that struggle, which I believe are counter-productive or against the interests of the working class as a whole. In similar vein I was in favour of supporting the recent refinery strikes DESPITE the nationalistic use of the “British Jobs for British Workers Demand”, but on the basis that Marxists had to use their support for the striking workers to intervene and oppose those reactionary demands, reactionary basis of conducting what was essentially a struggle for jobs and conditions.
“True, there was a blockade of Gaza, and that issue had to be addressed by Marxists, but even that could not be addressed outside the question of continued rocket attacks, of Hamas coup within Gaza and so on.”
“Well if you want to call it a blockade, fair enough but this adds weight to the Hamas argument for continuing its struggle and doesn’t weaken it as you suggested.”
But, as I’ve said above I have never suggested that Palestinians should cease their struggle!!!! But, the question remains that Marxists also have to address not just the question of principle, but the question of tactics. It seems to me, for obvious reasons, that Israel having ended its Occupation of Gaza the rocket attacks on Israel were a counter-productive tactic, for the simple reason that it gave a pretext for Israel to justify the blockade. Now I am fully aware that there can be an endless argument here about which came first the blockade or the rockets, but it is irrelevant. The average Israeli worker or worker in general is not going to be that bothered in an argument that could never be proven on that basis, but will simply see the fact that day after day, rockets are being fired. The best way to have ended the blockade would have been to give no such grounds on which the Israeli State could justify it, and thereby to have mobilised world and Israeli working class opinion against it. Lenin, opposed such terroristic tactics even from his brother because he recognised precisely that fact. They are the tactic of a small minority against a much greater power. The essence of Bolshevik tactics is to mobilise the greater power, and thereby better guarantee success. As he put it, “The Anarchists go in for violence retail, whereas we Bolsheviks go in for violence wholesale.”
“I don't see you criticizing Israel as being reactionary, which makes me think you have a soft spot for the Bourgeoisie.”
”Well your only original reply to this was that Israel used white phosphorous which you equated as being reactionary and which I disputed. I have, however, already accepted that after much probing I do see that you are critical of Israel.”
That’s nonsense!!!! As my previous two posts demonstrated the original posts themselves contained many direct criticisms of Israel, and of Imperialism, and those posts gave the quotes to that effect, far more than just the issue of white phosphorous. Those were their before you even made any comment. The fact, is you ignored those comments, because you went straight from the fact that I did not give wholehearted support to the reactionary politics of Hamas to accusing me of supporting Israel and Imperialism. As I said, your politics is more that of the religious zealot, or bigot who has a fixed idea in their head, and ignores all the facts to make the world fit it.
“But begins from a bigoted view in which nothing other than complete support for the politics and actions of Hamas and the other clerical-fascist organisations will do, and without which you automatically assign to people some necessary support for the opponents of those groups.”
“I never said I support the politics of Hamas and the reason I suspected you of supporting Israel was your statement about Gaza not being occupied and that Hamas had no reason for firing rockets, which I reasonably (but inaccurately) took to mean that you felt the Israeli assault on Gaza was justified to prevent the rocket attacks.”
Well, forgive me for saying so, but your repeated comments here say otherwise. Time and again you have defended the politics of Hamas from criticism, you have tried to place me in the same camp as Melanie Philips and other reactionaries just for having the temerity of describing Hamas for what they are – clerical-fascists. I have asked you to give us your own description of Hamas, but you have failed to do so. You have even described their co-thinker Ahmedinejad as holding certain “progressive” views!!! Like what, the Holocaust didn’t happen????
“It doesn’t matter what context you used the word slaughter or obscene or any other moralistic phrases, your views on moralist arguments lead me to believe your own moral indignation must be hollow / superficial.”
Of course, it matters what context those words are used in when, as I did, you go on to say, precisely that such moralising is meaningless unless it is coupled to some programme to achieve goals that deal with the moral evil you are describing, and not just any old Programme, but a progressive Programme based around class struggle!!!!!
“The AWL and I recognise that for the class struggle to take shape and become a reality, these interim stages/solutions are necessary. It is because we are in the camp of reality and you are in the camp of Marxist fundamentalism.”
So I take it you agree with them on Iraq then???? After all, that is the perfect example of that method isn’t it. Socialism working class struggle was impossible here and now. It can only occur in your and their “stages theory” after some period of bourgeois democracy has been gone through, and during which the working class can mature and become strong enough to advance to socialism. So, the best thing in Iraq according to your and their theory was indeed for democratic imperialism to overthrow Saddam, install that bourgeois democracy, create a breathing space for the Iraqi Labour Movement to develop, and then proceed to struggle for socialism. Fine just so long as we know where you stand on these issues, which class you and they place your faith in. For my part, I think the people who line themselves up on that side of the class barricades are class traitors. The consequences of such class traitors who adopted this “stages theory” are well known. The first adherents were those in the Second International who lined up the workers behind their bosses for the First World War. The Second the Mensheviks who lined up with the Whites against the Revolution, then their continuators the Stalinists who not only lined up with the workers enemies in China and in Spain, but who directly carried out the murdering of workers on their behalf for their temerity in advancing beyond that first stage.
As I said, just so long as we know which side of the barricades you are on. That way we can ensure we don’t turn our back on you.
“Your flippant remark was based on your acceptance of the idea that there is some natural national alliance between Jewish workers and the Jewish Capitalist State. On the basis of that view you make no distinction between Jewish workers and that State,”
“Not a natural alliance but a real one that needs to be broken.”
But, you have already repeatedly told us that this alliance cannot be broken that to try to do so as I suggest is Utopian. It can only be Utopian, only not be broken if it is a natural alliance, and you have told us why you think it is a natural alliance because you have told us that it is based on “race/religion”. In other words the straightforward Nationalist thesis.
“You do not at all wonder why Israeli workers give their support to their “enemies” – which you place in quotes presumably because you do not believe the Israeli ruling class are the enemies of Israeli workers.”
“I do wonder and I believe it is related to the history/ideology of Zionism and the beliefs that flow from this, such as the Arabs are inferior etc etc. The various wars and bombings have only consolidated this belief.”
But, ideas can only have a hold of people if they have some basis in reality, if the people’s daily lives give some substance to those ideas. You are right that the wars against Israel, the daily bombings and rocket attacks DO consolidate that belief. That is precisely why those tactics, which act to drive Israeli workers away from their natural allies within the Palestinian working class have to be criticised!!!! But, in reality I doubt that your statement about the idea of Arabs being inferior is held by anything but a small minority of Israelis. In fact, poll after poll shows a majority of Israelis in favour of a Two State solution, large numbers support Peace Now and other such organisations.
“You presumed wrong, as usual, about me believing the Israeli ruling class is not the enemy of Israeli workers, I put it in quotes because the Israeli workers themselves do not believe this. So the rest of your BNP analogy is bollocks.”
The you should have explained why you had done so. If what you now say is the case why use quotes at all. Jewish workers are no different than any other group of workers in that regard. I doubt British workers believe the British State is their enemy in any generalised sense. They may see it as an enemy in specific conditions where they come up against it – but Israeli workers do in that sense too – but would see it differently in the case of it defending against foreign attack and so on. I don’t think the BNP analogy was bollocks. Your whole politics throughout has been based on Nationalist rather than Socialist politics. Your statement,
“I am wondering why Israeli workers give their support to their “enemies”. You seem to want to put your head in the sand and ignore this class alliance based on race/religion. That was the point of my “flippant” remark.”
Comes right out of the BNP playbook. It says, as you have throughout, look your ideas about the shared interests of workers from different nationalities is bollocks, because it’s the shared interests of race that are important. They too believe there is no point trying to build workers unity across borders because workers should first look after their own kind. That is exactly the argument you have put forward in relation to the Palestinians.
“If you did begin from a class perspective you would show concern for both, and understand that the way to deal with both – the Palestinians support for Hamas, and the Israeli workers support for the Israeli State lead to the need for the same solution, an orientation not to your or the AWL’s nationalistic solutions, but to a proletarian internationalist solution, to the building of links between Israeli and Palestinian and Arab workers, for a programme of democratic and socialist demands to fuse those workers together against their common enemy.”
“We do both begin from a class perspective but one that is rooted in the real world and not a 19th century text book. We believe your programme can only come to fruition by going through a number of intermediate stages first.”
In a sense that is true. Unfortunately, the class perspective you both begin from is the capitalist class perspective not the working class perspective. That is why both you and the AWL – by the way they will love the fact that a defender of clerical-fascist organisations comes to the same Third Campist conclusions they do, a thesis I’ve argued was inevitable for some time – are reactionary bourgeois nationalists, not socialists. The Theory of Permanent Revolution does not say that bourgeois revolutions can ONLY occur as part of a process that leads on to proletarian revolution, it says that workers should not place their faith in the fact that they should, should not subordinate their own interests to those of the bourgeoisie in that process. All historical experience to date proves that to be true, and I mean to date.
“You falsely accused me of,”
"That is precisely the position of Marx, and of Lenin, whereas your position is that of some reactionary nationalist that sees the main division not as class, but as the BNP claim one of “race/religion”
“But as I have said, I do not see it in those terms but the Israeli workers do.”
It was no Israeli worker who said,
“I am wondering why Israeli workers give their support to their “enemies”. You seem to want to put your head in the sand and ignore this class alliance based on race/religion.”
It was you!!! You are the one who has argued throughout that this alliance between Israeli workers and bosses could not be broken, that it was utopian to even try, and here you have told us why, because that alliance you tell us is based on “race/religion”!!!!
“Ok you have avoided comparison with Melanie Phillips and provided a Marxist description of “multiculturalism”, which would look fine in a textbook. But if we can look at the real world for a second, how exactly does this fostering of a working class culture take place, what facts do we tell the workers, what form does it take, when does this fostering take place, within current society or in a transitional society etc etc etc.????”
Oh thank you for once again using an attempt at the Stalinist amalgam by tying me to Philips by allusion, but I’ll let that pass. The whole task of a Marxist is to be fighting an ideological battle within the working class as a part of the class struggle that attempts to promulgate those aspects of working class culture, which are progressive, the ideas of co-operation of solidarity, of compassion of humanism and secularism. Part and parcel of doing that is precisely to criticise the reactionary elements of existing bourgeois culture such as clericalism, a struggle you continually refuse to conduct.
“It demonstrates that imperialism CAN facilitate democratic change – though, of course, the demands of the Nationalists have still not yet, been satisfied – and that such democratic revolutions can occur without the need for proletarian revolution. The fact, that this CAN happen is no reason for Marxists to advocate such a means of bringing about such change,”
“Firstly it demonstrates that Imperialism will have to clean up its own mess sooner or later, not the rather flattering facilitate argument you use here.”
Its you that is the proponent of the stages theory not me. Its you that aligns yourself with the AWL, and their promulgation of that stages theory in relation to Iraq, the idea that workers should postpone their own struggle until the bourgeoisie and their imperialist allies have resolved the questions of the bourgeois revolution!!!!!
“The peace process has allowed for the possibility that politics in Northern Ireland will move beyond sectarianism to class politics, this was achieved by creating a solution from the real conditions of society at that time and not some utopian society that you imagine.”
What does this mean???? I have no idea what you are trying to say here! Yes, the peace process started from an existing situation. What Marxist could consider it could do anything other? I have already stated that Imperialism CAN facilitate a solution of the National Question. In fact, as I’ve written in another recent blog this is the difference between Imperialism and Colonialism. Its why Roosevelt as the representative of US, and therefore, the world industrial bourgeoisie, even talked of an alliance with Stalin against Churchill to bring about the end of Colonialism. Why? Because, imperialism is based on Industrial Capital which extracts Surplus Value by exploiting Labour in these economies, and to do so it requires a stable bourgeois democratic regime. Colonialism, on the other hand is based on Merchants and Money Capital, and on Landlordism, and extracts its share of the Surplus product, by trade, by selling high and buying low, by lending Money to conduct such trade and to establish plantations and transport links to facilitate that trade. It can get by perfectly well by using slave or near slave labour, or by exploiting the existing peasant production.
But, the fact that Imperialism CAN do this, has an incentive to do this, is no reason for workers to rely on that process, to subcontract the task to them as you and the AWL propose as part of your stages theory.
“The “terrorist” Guevara tactics that you decry was actually born out of the injustices of the North and the reality that peaceful protest would not achieve any real change and that a joint workers struggle was an impossibility given the real conditions.”
Not true. The Civil Rights Movement did mobilise the Labour Movement – much of which was Protestant, and did win considerable backing outside Ireland on the basis of it arguing for what were pretty impossible injustices for Britain as a supposedly bourgeois democratic state to defend. There was every possibility of building a working class movement to address the real needs of a pretty impoverished working class in both communities, provided that an adequate programme was fought for by an adequate Workers Party that organised the best elements of the working class from both communities. The material conditions, the oppression faced by Catholics were essentially no different, in fact probably less acute, than the conditions faced by oppressed nationalities within Russia at the beginning of the twentieth century, which led Lenin and the Bolsheviks to develop such a strategy and principle as the way to deal with such situations.
The problem was that there was no such Workers party, and no such programme. On the one hand there was the reactionary Stalinist Party, on the other the reformist SDLP both of whom in line with your stages theory could only advocate economistic, reformist solutions, and on the Left there were those like the Militant who argued a more Left-Wing though essentially still reformist Programme based around the idea of building working class unity, but which failed to address those very issues of Catholic oppression, which should have been one of the fundamental bases around which such unity was built, and on the other was the SWP and its associated organisations who – ultimately – sank into the same kind of petit-bourgeois tailing of the reactionary nationalist forces that you adopt now. And ultimately, what was the result? Did that Guevarrism work? No. It set the working class of Ireland back decades through division, it resulted in countless lives lost, it provided the basis for reactionary legislation in Britain used against militants of all kinds, and so on.
“Now of course things have moved on but there are still more obstacles to overcome if the battle can take the class shape that you and I would argue for. The difference between us is that you believe these obstacles and the ones in the past were not real obstacles and I believe that they were.”
Where have I said that these obstacles were not real???? Of course, the obstacles were/are real. That is not the difference between us. The difference is that as a socialist I do not believe that alliances based on “race/religion” are in any way insuperable, I do not believe that undermining such alliances by building working class unity across “race” or religion, or nationality, or sex, or gender etc. is utopian. You have said that you do. You accept that the status quo and argue for building workers unity only at some future date after the issues of bourgeois democracy have been resolved. That is both reactionary nationalism, and the stages theory summed up.
“Hence you accuse me of a “Stalinist stages theory”. It also shows that Permanent revolution is divorced from the real battles of everyday life, in the case of Northern Ireland you talk about some imaginary process when the real process is being played out in front of everyone and creating some real benefits. You occupying a position outside this reality can only alienate yourself from the real struggle, i.e. real people.”
Nonsense all you are doing here is giving us yet again the Bernsteinian revisionist theory of inevitability. “Don’t worry about the ends, the Movement is everything”! Crude determinism, what is must be, and will be. Far from being divorced from the real battles it is only the perspective of Permanent Revolution that can provide a real solution for workers in Ireland. The National Question, still has not been resolved. That is why the physical force men have re-appeared. And when the national Question is back on the agenda, when the prospect of a United Ireland is placed front and centre, what will be the response of the Unionists? Economic prosperity, the factor of the EU and gradual degradation of national sovereignty under the auspices of regionalism has lessened the tensions, and provided the material backdrop to the current cessation of hostilities, but that can’t be mistaken for the actual underlying problem having been resolved. And, ultimately, it can be resolved in one of three ways. It can be resolved by Britain holding on to its colony, and playing on the fears of Unionists, in order to once again crush the Nationalist Community. It can be resolved by Britain resigning itself to giving up its colony and abandoning the Unionists to their fate in a United Ireland, which would mean the Southern clerical state allying with the Northern Nationalists to suppress those Unionists. It can be resolved by the workers North and South, Catholic and Protestant recognising their shared interests as workers, shared interests in a democratic solution that opposes the oppression of either community, and develops a Programme to develop workers unity around those basic goals together with a series of socialist demands that unite workers as workers against bosses. I choose that latter option as the most progressive, the only one any socialist worth their salt should spend their effort on. It is the solution suggested by Permanent Revolution, and the only one that defends the interests of workers, which should be a socialists first priority!
“The only progressive solution remains one based on the concept of Permanent Revolution, and on building international working class unity. Any such solution, will leave workers still oppressed, still exploited having simply exchanged one form for another”
“Ultimately I agree with this but with the differences I have already highlighted.”
Which means you don’t agree at all. It means you have thrown your hands in the air and said its all too difficult, and in any case the unfolding of the idea will resolve everything, reason will triumph!
“Marxists do not make their assessment of the class nature of States based on subjective criteria such as, “both regimes want to empower the poor through Education and fairer wealth distribution”. Hitler and Mussolini claimed to want to do that too. For a Marxist the criteria is which class rules socially,”
“Fair point. However, I think you have to explain why Cuba and Venezuela have such close ties.”
I have explained – shared national interest, just as shared national interest led to similar close ties between Stalin’s USSR and Hitler’s Germany!!!
“You describe both states as they stand now but do not imagine where they are heading.”
Of course I do. I’ll describe what they are in the future when we get there and we know!!!!
“Chavez is attempting to empower the lower classes to facilitate their struggles for the future and has a similar ideology as Castro.”
Chavez is a populist demagogue. He mobilises support from the very poor by giving them handouts and so on, but at the same time attacks workers and Trade Unionists where they are not his tame puppets. Yes, the ideology is similar to Castro, but that is nothing good. It is Stalinism, a bureaucratic system based on manipulating the masses to achieve the goals of the leaders, and attacking the workers when they challenge that bureaucratic control. It is National Socialism that bases itself not on the idea of building international workers solidarity, but bases itself on manoeuvring and alliances to further the narrow national interest.
“They recognise their motivations are the same, not something they would recognise with Hitler or Mussolini I suspect.”
Of course, they would. Castro’s mentor Stalin allied with Hitler, Chavez allies with Ahmedinejad who defends Hitler against charges of the Holocaust and so on. All of them are reactionary Nationalists. All are concerned with furthering their own National interests, including forming such alliances where they do that.
“The reason I say Israel is an exceptional case, is not to justify punishing the Israelis or hunting them down, it is to support my “stages” theory and not your permanent revolution solution. I am saying your solution will not work in these exceptional cases.”
But, you haven’t said what is exceptional in this case.
“But, if your argument were correct then in that hundred years Capitalism should have become more and more irrational to the point where it should have caused its destruction long ago. It did not for the reasons I have outlined. History does not move according to the crude determinist laws you have ascribed.”
“I guess the memory of all those “failed” communist states will have to be a distant memory for socialism to fully recover, especially in the west.”
On the contrary, I think its vital that those experiments remain at the forefront of socialists and workers minds so that the lessons from them are learned, so that the same mistakes are not made again, so that those who would write them off as being something that went wrong because of peculiar historical circumstances rather than due to a fundamentally flawed model of socialist revolution do not get away with imposing it again on the working class.
“This is a real rational reason (one of many) why its destruction did not happen. Though I do not want to get into a debate about this, as it would mean going over the history of the entire 20th century.”
No the reason it didn’t happen is because those whose model led to the failure of those revolutions continued in one form (Stalinism) or another (Trotskyism) to dominate the revolutionary movement, and could offer no real solution to workers problems other than to repeat those mistakes, a course of action which workers being sensible people rightly chose not to take. That left the workers movement in the hands of non-revolutionaries of reformists moving ever steadily rightwards as the revolutionaries increasingly failed to exert any meaningful influence on the workers that could have checked that move.
“What happens then depends upon the actions of individuals, but you offer us no basis for understanding why these individuals act in this way rather than that other than again that the outcome of these decisions is rational because it is real. But, these actions then create a new set of condition, which are rational because they exist, and so on. Within this context everything that exists is rational because it exists, all history is one set of unchangeable events one after another and there is no possibility of changing events in a particular direction.”
“I don’t think it is saying this exactly. Yes there is a trend/movement of history in a particular direction, unless some global disaster were to strike I don’t think England will ever return to the middle ages, but this direction is not a straight line. The idea is based on the presumption that people will act in their own interest, not an outlandish proposition I would contend.”
Its the proposition of the bourgeois Right, of the Libetarians in particular. Yes, people will act in what they PERCEIVE to be their interest, but what they perceive to be their interest depends upon the information they receive in order to formulate that judgement. It may be in my interest to take drug A rather than B to deal with a particular complaint, but if I don’t know of drug A’s existence, and my doctor – perhaps because he gets paid a commission – advises me to take drug B, then I am likely to take drug B! On the basis of my personal experience and rationality I may think that if I join a Trade Union I will damage my chances of promotion etc., I will pay out union subs, reducing my income whereas if I stay outside the union and leave it to others I will obtain the benefits without the costs. It may seem obvious to me that if jobs are short then its in my interest to stop foreigners coming in to the country so that I have a better chance of what jobs are available and so on. None of what is wrong with these things is on the face of it obvious. It is only the fact that Marxism is able to look at things from a scientific position and thereby uncover what is REALLY in the interest of workers AS A CLASS that enables an alternative view to be put forward, and without that, other views will dominate, and shape the decisions that workers make. They will not come to those decisions simply because they are rational decision, because often they are only rational decisions for the CLASS, not for the individual. The individual has to recognise their membership of the class and tie their fate to the class before that becomes true.
“Individuals can raise arguments, but according to your scenario in only in the context of what actually exists and is real.”
“Yes I would say this. Can you off the top of your head provide an argument for something that does not exist, be it a system or an idea.”
Yes, of course I can. I can provide an argument in favour of Communism!!!!
“This is the reason why the micro chip was not invented by a member of a tribe in the jungle. It also explains why Aristotle didn’t come up with the Labour theory of value.”
Actually, Aristotle DID come up with the Labour Theory of Value along with a Chinese Philosopher at around the same time! But, yes ideas are dependent upon the existence in the material world of the necessary conditions for those ideas to arise. But, this process is not what you make it out to be. The microchip did not become a material reality prior to someone inventing it, and thereby the idea coming AFTER the material reality. That is precisely my point, and my criticism of your crude materialism. In your world no real progress could be made. The first tool that Man used was his hand. He could only use his hand because it existed, but he did have to go beyond simply the fact that his hand existed to think about how he might use it as a tool. Next was probably a stick or a rock. He didn’t invent the stick or the rock they existed, but he had to think how he could use them as a tool. But, he did have to have an idea about something that did not exist, when he abstracted from his use of the stick, and the rock to think, If I sharpen the stick I can use it as a spear, if I put an edge on the rock I can make a cutting tool. All the time Man thinks of things that do not exist. That is his creative nature. It is how he will create socialism.
“But, Marxists have done neither of these things, particularly over the last 80 years. They have shunned the idea of building Co-operatives as proposed by Marx and the International here,”
“Yes I would agree with this fact but the question is why have Marxist shunned this?
I have never seen one left organisation even use the word Co-operative. In fact the first I heard about co-operatives being to do with left politics was by reading your articles.”
I hope my recent blogs have gone some way to answer that question for you. I would also recommend reading the material on the “Commune” website where the idea of Workers Self-Management is also put forward.
See for example: Here
Boffy,
ReplyDeleteHave you seen todays front page of the Independent which destroys your rose tinted view that the Israeli’s did all they could to avoid civilian casualties because they were in the full glare of the media. Testimonies from some Israeli soldiers show that troops were ordered to shoot Palestinian civilians and did so. Will you condemn the troops that did this and accept that your argument which claimed Hamas used these people as shields is pro Israeli nonsense? It shows where your hysterical clerical fascist superficial analysis leads.
Anyway, got that off my chest, back to your previous response,
You said,
“In similar vein I was in favour of supporting the recent refinery strikes DESPITE the nationalistic use of the “British Jobs for British Workers Demand”, but on the basis that Marxists had to use their support for the striking workers to intervene and oppose those reactionary demands, reactionary basis of conducting what was essentially a struggle for jobs and conditions.”
In hindsight I actually think the majority of workers recognised this fact and didn’t need Marxist to tell them otherwise, I think the slogan used was a jibe at Gordon Brown.
More from Boffy,
“The best way to have ended the blockade would have been to give no such grounds on which the Israeli State could justify it, and thereby to have mobilised world and Israeli working class opinion against it. Lenin, opposed such terroristic tactics even from his brother because he recognised precisely that fact.”
You are always making requests of the Palestinians but not the Israeli’s. If the Israeli workers refused to fight against the Palestinians then this would have helped them mobilise “world opinion” in their favour. Hopefully Lenin would have opposed the terror tactics of Israel.
You said,
“I have asked you to give us your own description of Hamas, but you have failed to do so. You have even described their co-thinker Ahmedinejad as holding certain “progressive” views!!! Like what, the Holocaust didn’t happen????”
Hamas cannot be explained in one catchy sentence, they require deeper analysis than that. Your crude labels tell us nothing about them.
As for Ahmedinejad, well, you have ascribed progressive views to imperialist murderers such as Bush (A man who denies evolution) and Thatcher, e.g. on Thatcher you said, “Even Margaret Thatcher was progressive compared to say Attila the Hun,” You are saying that Bush can be both progressive and reactionary but not Ahmedinejad????
Boffy said,
“So, the best thing in Iraq according to your and their theory was indeed for democratic imperialism to overthrow Saddam, install that bourgeois democracy, create a breathing space for the Iraqi Labour Movement to develop, and then proceed to struggle for socialism.”
No I don’t think this at all, as I said this “stages” theory is only appropriate in certain exceptional cases and is about how the left respond to these issues, not what the bourgeois do. This, for me, is about siding with the oppressed against oppressor. Your view is standing at a distance to analyse things from a far. The left need to get on demonstrations and be active as the French heroically showed just the other day.
I don’t think, in the case of Iraq, “Democratic Imperialism” has achieved any of the things you claim and was never likely to, but again your positivist attitude to the imperialists comes shining through. Therefore, for this and other reasons I bitterly opposed and still oppose the invasion/occupation of Iraq.
You said,
“But, you have already repeatedly told us that this alliance cannot be broken that to try to do so as I suggest is Utopian.”
I haven’t said this; I have said that stages need to be passed before we can begin to talk about your solution.
You said,
“You are right that the wars against Israel, the daily bombings and rocket attacks DO consolidate that belief. That is precisely why those tactics, which act to drive Israeli workers away from their natural allies within the Palestinian working class have to be criticised!!!! But, in reality I doubt that your statement about the idea of Arabs being inferior is held by anything but a small minority of Israelis.”
This seems to be apologising for the Israeli actions to me, shame you don’t extend that logic to the Palestinian Hamas supporters. It is also interesting that you have faith in the nobility of Israeli workers but in other articles you seem to view British workers as ignorant BNP supporters.
You said,
“Comes right out of the BNP playbook. It says, as you have throughout, look your ideas about the shared interests of workers from different nationalities is bollocks, because it’s the shared interests of race that are important.”
No I am not saying this. What I am saying is that in these cases, sadly race/religion gains a false importance and Marxists should not ignore this but develop tactics to defeat it. We differ on tactics.
For the record race and nationality are not important to me, I am not against immigration and the colour of someone’s skin is irrelevant to me. Hardly the positions of your average BNP member.
You said,
“The Theory of Permanent Revolution does not say that bourgeois revolutions can ONLY occur as part of a process that leads on to proletarian revolution, it says that workers should not place their faith in the fact that they should, should not subordinate their own interests to those of the bourgeoisie in that process.”
I don’t accept I am saying workers should subordinate their interests to anyone.
You said,
“The whole task of a Marxist is to be fighting an ideological battle within the working class as a part of the class struggle that attempts to promulgate those aspects of working class culture, which are progressive, the ideas of co-operation of solidarity, of compassion of humanism and secularism. Part and parcel of doing that is precisely to criticise the reactionary elements of existing bourgeois culture such as clericalism, a struggle you continually refuse to conduct.”
I am saying that the Palestinians have to do this themselves and under current conditions this process will not be successful. We can debate all we like but we don’t live in Gaza and what we say is irrelevant to this process, all we can do is offer them our support against their oppressors. Yes we can debate tactics etc but to influence their daily struggle from the “comfort” of our homes is not feasible.
You said,
“The material conditions, the oppression faced by Catholics were essentially no different, in fact probably less acute, than the conditions faced by oppressed nationalities within Russia at the beginning of the twentieth century, which led Lenin and the Bolsheviks to develop such a strategy and principle as the way to deal with such situations.”
You are highlighting here the importance of Socialists being in control of state power, by having this power they could influence change. I think Tito adopted similar strategies in the former Yugoslavia, wonder how that turned out?
You said,
“And, ultimately, it can be resolved in one of three ways. It can be resolved by Britain holding on to its colony, and playing on the fears of Unionists, in order to once again crush the Nationalist Community. It can be resolved by Britain resigning itself to giving up its colony and abandoning the Unionists to their fate in a United Ireland, which would mean the Southern clerical state allying with the Northern Nationalists to suppress those Unionists. It can be resolved by the workers North and South, Catholic and Protestant recognising their shared interests as workers, shared interests in a democratic solution that opposes the oppression of either community, and develops a Programme to develop workers unity around those basic goals together with a series of socialist demands that unite workers as workers against bosses. I choose that latter option as the most progressive,”
I also agree with the latter, I think this solution is now in a better position to be realised due to the “stages” that have gone before, I think you need to recognise that in some exceptional cases your tactics must be refined, if not completely abandoned.
More from you,
“Which means you don’t agree at all. It means you have thrown your hands in the air and said its all too difficult, and in any case the unfolding of the idea will resolve everything, reason will triumph!”
No, it means having a different idea of tactics to you. I can see the world slowly moving away from nationalism and with technological advancements this process will hopefully speed up and its vanishing spectre will allow socialism more room to breathe.
I said in relation to Cuba and Venezuela,
“You describe both states as they stand now but do not imagine where they are heading.”
You responded with,
“Of course I do. I’ll describe what they are in the future when we get there and we know!!!!”
So you don’t try to postulate where something may lead, this is certainly a break from Marxist fundamentalism and an embrace of extreme sophistry.
I think your whole rant about Chavez is a clear example of where your fundamentalism leads and in this case I am glad to be on the opposite side to you. However, this debate is generally about Israel/Palestine, so I will avoid an extensive debate about this.
You claimed,
“But, you haven’t said what is exceptional in this case.”
I have and will not repeat it. If you compare French workers relationships with English workers, this is different to that of Israeli and Palestinian ones but for you one size fits all, to me you adjust tactics in exceptional situations.
You said,
“It is only the fact that Marxism is able to look at things from a scientific position and thereby uncover what is REALLY in the interest of workers AS A CLASS that enables an alternative view to be put forward, and without that, other views will dominate, and shape the decisions that workers make. They will not come to those decisions simply because they are rational decision, because often they are only rational decisions for the CLASS, not for the individual. The individual has to recognise their membership of the class and tie their fate to the class before that becomes true.”
I didn’t say any different. We both agree socialism is in the interest of workers and that we will only get socialism if the workers collectively believe this also. But I think history has shown that ultimately people choose the most progressive option, which makes the task of explaining socialism so crucial.
It was previously argued,
“Individuals can raise arguments, but according to your scenario in only in the context of what actually exists and is real.”
“Yes I would say this. Can you off the top of your head provide an argument for something that does not exist, be it a system or an idea.”
”Yes, of course I can. I can provide an argument in favour of Communism!!!!“
Communism is a real idea, it exists in reality and wasn’t invented out of thin air, and yes Humans have the ability make connections between things that really exist to come up with new ideas, i.e. in the context of what actually exists and is real to quote you.
Now I will ask again, provide an example for something that does not exist.
Finally, on co-operatives.
I have yet to read your articles but will do so shortly. I have to confess my original criticisms of your position were said in ignorance of co-ops generally.
Now while I still have to wonder why most of the left have abandoned the idea, I would have to agree that in the end only workers acting by themselves can bring about the social transformation to socialism and I guess co-ops are the only solution on the table to achieve this end.
“Have you seen todays front page of the Independent which destroys your rose tinted view that the Israeli’s did all they could to avoid civilian casualties because they were in the full glare of the media. Testimonies from some Israeli soldiers show that troops were ordered to shoot Palestinian civilians and did so. Will you condemn the troops that did this and accept that your argument which claimed Hamas used these people as shields is pro Israeli nonsense? It shows where your hysterical clerical fascist superficial analysis leads.”
ReplyDeleteI have now, but it doesn’t seem to say what you claim it says, which seems to be, unfortunately, the hallmark of your method. It says nothing about these troops being “ordered to shoot Palestinian civilians”, as you claim as far as I can see. It only says that, “abuses were made possible by the permissive rules of engagement established by their superiors”. Having permissive rules of engagement is NOT ordering troops to shoot civilians. Again we see the way you have some bigoted preconceived notion in your head, and simply make things up to fit it, rather than dealing with the facts. And as the article goes on to say, which rather does support the point I was making,
“We should bear in mind too that this testimony was made public by a concerned Israeli academic. Whatever crimes might be laid at the door of the IDF, it should not be Israeli society on trial here. Indeed, it is a tribute to the openness of Israel's democracy, that we have learned of these allegations. Nor does the conduct of Israeli troops invalidate the overall objective of Operation Cast Lead, namely to stop Hamas firing rockets into towns in southern Israel.”
Now let me deal with your accusation against me. Can you show where I said that “the Israeli’s did all they could to avoid civilian casualties because they were in the full glare of the media. Israel”? No, of course you can’t because that is not what I said. As all of those previously quotes I have given from my original posts showed I criticised Israel for engaging in a brutal slaughter of Palestinians in Gaza with little regard for civilian casualties. But, having little regard for civilian casualties by use of white phosphorous, by large scale bombing runs, by intensive shelling and so on, IS NOT the same as actually deliberately targeting some specific group of civilians on the ground, such as happened with the school!!! It was that, which I said could indeed have happened because in every war or conflict soldiers are brutalised and commit atrocities – such as these soldiers have spoken of now – which cannot be condoned, but for which, as Marxists, we should seek to place the blame on those who are really responsible – those who send the troops into war, those whose class society brutalises them – and not the troops themselves. It was that, which I said there could be little reason for the Israeli State actually wishing to see happen, precisely because, the kind of media coverage, the kind of open society that Israel is, would mean that it would have to explain its actions!!!!!
So, I don’t have to NOW condemn Israeli soldiers for committing such atrocities because I already did that in the original posts!!!! But, I stand by the point made then, the real blame lies not with the troops, but with those that send them into battle, those who brutalise them. I also stand by my statement that in situations where on the ground someone is shooting at you, and using civilians as a shield, if it’s a matter of saving your own life, whilst risking the lives of those civilians, I would do what most human beings would do, which is to try to save my own life. So I am not going to attack any soldier for doing the same thing.
Your argument that these soldiers statements shows ”your argument which claimed Hamas used these people as shields is pro Israeli nonsense? It shows where your hysterical clerical fascist superficial analysis leads.” is the real hysterical nonsense. What the statement shows is that people were being used as human shields, and the troops didn’t take measures they could have taken to avoid those civilians being killed. But, that alone shows that the civilians WERE being used in that way!!! We know that Hamas do that, we know they send children and other vulnerable people to act as homicide bombers and so on, so whatever statements these soldiers make does not change that fact. There is nothing “hysterical” about my analysis of Hamas as “clerical-fascists” it is a calm, Marxist appraisal of a political force for what it is. It is your religious bigotry, which leads you into such hysterics against anyone who does not accept your articles of faith in such reactionaries. And you have still failed to give us your own analysis of what Hamas constitutes as a social and political grouping, based on a Marxist or any other kind of scientific basis. Why is that doesn’t surprise me?
“In similar vein I was in favour of supporting the recent refinery strikes DESPITE the nationalistic use of the “British Jobs for British Workers Demand”, but on the basis that Marxists had to use their support for the striking workers to intervene and oppose those reactionary demands, reactionary basis of conducting what was essentially a struggle for jobs and conditions.”
“In hindsight I actually think the majority of workers recognised this fact and didn’t need Marxist to tell them otherwise, I think the slogan used was a jibe at Gordon Brown.”
Total bullshit. The idea that it was a jibe at Brown was raised to try to cover some of the embarrassment. The same kind of nationalistic ideas are rampant within the working class, and even within the Labour Movement. Just look at the reactionary nationalist venture that Bob Crow and the CPB are engaged in now!!!!
“You are always making requests of the Palestinians but not the Israeli’s. If the Israeli workers refused to fight against the Palestinians then this would have helped them mobilise “world opinion” in their favour. Hopefully Lenin would have opposed the terror tactics of Israel.”
More bullshit. My programme is addressed equally towards Israeli workers to fight for basic democratic rights for Palestinians, such as the right to send representatives to the Knesset, for free movement, for free assembly and so on as it is to Palestinian workers!!!! Moreover, there is a difference between Israeli workers who by law have to serve as conscripts in the army, and Palestinians in Hamas and other organisations who fire rockets and carry out bombings etc. against Israeli workers on their own volition. The latter can choose a different set of tactics and strategy at their own volition. The Israeli workers faced with conscription can only do that if they overthrow the Israeli State and establish a Workers State!!!! That’s precisely why those Israeli workers and Palestinian workers have to find common cause.
“I have asked you to give us your own description of Hamas, but you have failed to do so. You have even described their co-thinker Ahmedinejad as holding certain “progressive” views!!! Like what, the Holocaust didn’t happen????”
Hamas cannot be explained in one catchy sentence, they require deeper analysis than that. Your crude labels tell us nothing about them.”
I haven’t asked you for a catchy sentence!!! I’ve asked you to give the same kind of analysis of Hamas that I have given, which looks at their sociological basis, their political agenda and so on and defines them in so doing as clerical-fascists.
“As for Ahmedinejad, well, you have ascribed progressive views to imperialist murderers such as Bush (A man who denies evolution) and Thatcher, e.g. on Thatcher you said, “Even Margaret Thatcher was progressive compared to say Attila the Hun,” You are saying that Bush can be both progressive and reactionary but not Ahmedinejad????
The whole point of “COMPARED WITH” is to make the point that there are no absolutes. As we are living in the world of Thatcher’s heirs, of Obama, and so on, and not of Attila the Hun, I would have thought that most intelligent people would recognise that as me NOT saying that Thatcher’s views were progressive. The whole point is that from the point of view of a socialist none of these people are progressive, but I would say that given the choice as a worker of living in a State such as the US under Bush or Britain under Thatcher, states where workers DID (in the main) have the right to join a Trade Union, to strike, to demonstrate, to criticise reactionary religious ideas, to form political parties and stand in elections, where women were not murdered for committing adultery or punished for showing their faces, where gays were not murdered by the State simply for being gay and so on, or living in Iran under Ahmedinejad where none of those things apply, I would join the former. None of that causes me to choose the former leaders over the other, or one state over the other, because I have no desire to argue for a lesser evil, only to argue for socialism, but socialists should not be idiots, should not fail to see and defend what makes their task easier to achieve!!!
“So, the best thing in Iraq according to your and their theory was indeed for democratic imperialism to overthrow Saddam, install that bourgeois democracy, create a breathing space for the Iraqi Labour Movement to develop, and then proceed to struggle for socialism.”
“No I don’t think this at all, as I said this “stages” theory is only appropriate in certain exceptional cases and is about how the left respond to these issues, not what the bourgeois do.”
No you didn’t you said it was applicable in general in such circumstances. You argued it in relation to Ireland, for instance. And the “stages theory” is precisely about what the bourgeoisie does, and not what the left does, because the “stages theory” requires the left to subordinate itself to the Programme of the bourgeoisie!!!!! That is what you do in Palestine, for instance.
“This, for me, is about siding with the oppressed against oppressor.”
But, you don’t do that. Workers are oppressed by Hamas and Ahmedinejad, so are women, gays and so on, but you don’t stand with those oppressed sections of society, you side with their oppressors. Yes, of course, Marxists are in favour of siding with the oppressed. That is what I do, but you don’t. But Marxists do not just side blindly with the oppressed, they try to provide the oppressed with a solution to their oppression, and that DOES require standing back and analysing rather than just blindly jumping in, which almost always ends up with supporting the existing reactionary leaders of the oppressed, and further worsening their position.
“Your view is standing at a distance to analyse things from a far. The left need to get on demonstrations and be active as the French heroically showed just the other day.
I don’t think, in the case of Iraq, “Democratic Imperialism” has achieved any of the things you claim and was never likely to, but again your positivist attitude to the imperialists comes shining through. Therefore, for this and other reasons I bitterly opposed and still oppose the invasion/occupation of Iraq.”
But that just shows how ill-thought out and inconsistent your politics is. I was and am opposed to the invasion and Occupation of Iraq. I was in favour of building workers opposition to the Occupation on the basis of a demand for Workers to kick the troops out. I held and hold that position on the basis that EVEN IF, imperialism in alliance with the Iraqi bourgeoisie were able to establish some form of bourgeois democracy in Iraq, that is not a means of achieving that which Marxists could support, because Marxists stand on the basis of Permanent Revolution, on the basis that such forces CANNOT be trusted to achieve such a transformation, that they will throw over such a process if it threatens their interests, and that it is only the independent mobilisation of the working class which can be entrusted with such a task, and that will inevitably mean carrying through that process IN OPPOSITION to those bourgeois forces.
My position is consistent. But, you have told us you reject this idea. You stand with the AWL on the ground of the Stalinist “Stages Theory”, which argues the exact opposite. So you can’t tell us you support the stages theory and reject Permanent Revolution, and then say you reject exactly what that theory meant for Iraq, which is that the bourgeois democratic revolution to replace the regime of Saddam, could only be achieved by the bourgeoisie and its imperialist allies, and that workers and to subordinate their interests to that project. The AWL are at least consistent in their application of the Stalinist theory even if they are wrong. You are both wrong and inconsistent!!!
Its not me that is putting forward a “positivist” attitude in relation to the role of the imperialists in Iraq, it is your new found allies in the AWL!!!! It is they who share your “realistic” view that workers can’t advance their own struggle in such conditions as exist now, and have to subordinate them to the tasks of the bourgeois revolution, and who for that reason paint up the achievements of the bourgeoisie and its imperialist allies. If again in your binary world attempt to oppose my position you have tied yourself to my opponents in the AWL you now find not surprisingly that you have chosen badly in your allies I can only say that that is what happens when you proceed on the rather naïve – “My enemy’s enemy is my friend” – basis of your political method.
“But, you have already repeatedly told us that this alliance cannot be broken that to try to do so as I suggest is Utopian.”
“I haven’t said this; I have said that stages need to be passed before we can begin to talk about your solution.”
Yes, you have!!! You have repeatedly said that it is utopian to believe that an alliance can be made between the Palestinian workers and the Israeli workers i.e. that the Israeli workers can be broken from their alliance with the Israeli bourgeoisie and State!!!!! You make the same statement in relation to Ireland. Of course, you do it is consistent with the “stages theory”, it is consistent with a nationalist rather than socialist world outlook.
“You are right that the wars against Israel, the daily bombings and rocket attacks DO consolidate that belief. That is precisely why those tactics, which act to drive Israeli workers away from their natural allies within the Palestinian working class have to be criticised!!!! But, in reality I doubt that your statement about the idea of Arabs being inferior is held by anything but a small minority of Israelis.”
“This seems to be apologising for the Israeli actions to me, shame you don’t extend that logic to the Palestinian Hamas supporters. It is also interesting that you have faith in the nobility of Israeli workers but in other articles you seem to view British workers as ignorant BNP supporters.”
Then you must have been apologising for it too, because I have only quoted back to you what you had said!!!!!!! But, how can it be apologising for Israeli actions???? All its saying is that the reasons that Israeli WORKERS are consolidated in their beliefs which tie them to the Israeli State include the fact that they daily face those kind of rocket attacks etc., which generate the idea of need to rely on that State for defence. What has that got to do with apologising for the Israeli State??????
And I do extend that logic to the Palestinians. I do understand why their oppression, and their weakness to be able to deal with that oppression leads them into actions which undermine the potential both for resolving their problems, and for building the kind of workers unity that could resolve those problems. But, understanding is only the first part of then developing a strategy to deal with that situation. That strategy is clear. Its necessary to develop a strategy that unites workers across the divide, that addresses their needs as workers, and as part of a divided community with specific interests.
But, Israeli workers are just as equally supporters of Likud, Kadeema etc. and Palestinian workers of Hamas or Fatah. Where have I ever made any such distinction which treats Jewish workers as different from British workers????? No, I believe that all workers, British, Israeli, Palestinian, Irish or whatever are “noble”, all objectively have the same interests as workers, and it is on that basis that Marxists have to engender that unity as providing the solution to those problems and splitting the workers away from their current leaders in favour of establishing their own socialist organisations and leaders.
“Comes right out of the BNP playbook. It says, as you have throughout, look your ideas about the shared interests of workers from different nationalities is bollocks, because it’s the shared interests of race that are important.”
“No I am not saying this. What I am saying is that in these cases, sadly race/religion gains a false importance and Marxists should not ignore this but develop tactics to defeat it. We differ on tactics.”
Nonsense. There is not a single country on the planet where the majority of workers do not associate themselves on the same nationalistic basis with their own state. Israel is no different in that regard than any other state, and its is the repeated attempts of people like you to portray it as such, which reveals an underlying Left anti-Semitism. Workers remain tied to bourgeois ideas whether it is an acceptance of the idea of the market, of capitalist production and so on, or of their common interest with those capitalists and their state, precisely because as Marx says, “The ruling ideas are the ideas of the ruling class.” Workers in Israel are no different in that regard than workers elsewhere. The whole point of Marxist strategy is how to win workers away from those ruling ideas, how to split them on the basis of their objective interests away from their class enemies. That is no easy task, because the everyday lives of workers reinforces those very ideas of the ruling class. Their objective interests are not at all obvious or apparent to them. What is real is not at all rational in the case of the interests of workers. Only to some degree is it possible on the basis of pure argument to win workers away from those ruling ideas, and only for a minority of workers. Instead it is necessary through practical example and experience for workers to learn those lessons, thorugh class struggle, they can begin to uncover their true interests as workers within and across national, race or religious divides, but only if Marxists enable them to do that, by developing an adequate Programme which codifies their experience, which points out to them in the struggle the real lessons. Ultimately, only changed material conditions – for example, the establishment of worker owned and controlled property can begin to challenge those ruling ideas.
“For the record race and nationality are not important to me, I am not against immigration and the colour of someone’s skin is irrelevant to me. Hardly the positions of your average BNP member.”
I wasn’t accusing you of being a member of the BNP or sharing their idea on those issues. I was accusing you of seeing the world in the same nationalistic terms, of going from there to apply the same methodology for resolving problems. There are many on the Left from Mussolini to Stalin who began with your same basically nationalistic outlook, and who found themselves ultimately in a position they would not previously have thought they could reach.
“The Theory of Permanent Revolution does not say that bourgeois revolutions can ONLY occur as part of a process that leads on to proletarian revolution, it says that workers should not place their faith in the fact that they should, should not subordinate their own interests to those of the bourgeoisie in that process.”
“I don’t accept I am saying workers should subordinate their interests to anyone.”
You might not accept it, why doesn’t that surprise me, but that is precisely what you do in practice and in theory. Everything you have ever written here is about workers subordinating their interests to the interests of bourgeois forces such as Hamas, or Ahmedinejad or other reactionary bourgeois forces in the name of some unspecified “anti-imperialism”. So you argue for workers to subordinate their interests to these bourgeois forces in practice. But, you have also told us you support the Stalinist “stages theory”, and that theory is precisely about workers subordinating their interests to those of the bourgeois revolution, a notion you have repeated several times claiming that it is unrealistic to combine such a struggle with a struggle for socialism i.e. a struggle to address workers interests!!!!
“The whole task of a Marxist is to be fighting an ideological battle within the working class as a part of the class struggle that attempts to promulgate those aspects of working class culture, which are progressive, the ideas of co-operation of solidarity, of compassion of humanism and secularism. Part and parcel of doing that is precisely to criticise the reactionary elements of existing bourgeois culture such as clericalism, a struggle you continually refuse to conduct.”
“I am saying that the Palestinians have to do this themselves and under current conditions this process will not be successful. We can debate all we like but we don’t live in Gaza and what we say is irrelevant to this process, all we can do is offer them our support against their oppressors. Yes we can debate tactics etc but to influence their daily struggle from the “comfort” of our homes is not feasible.”
I don’t accept this argument at all. There have been Palestinian Marxists going back to the beginning of the twentieth century – probably before – and certainly Palestinian Trotskyists as an organised group in the 1930’s, and today. As far as I am concerned those are the first forces I look to as providing a lead for the Palestinian masses – even though as Trotskyists I would have the same disagreements with them that I have with other Leninists – and not the reactionary forces of Hamas. The whole point about revolutionary Marxism is that it is about the sharing and debating of ideas on a global basis rejecting the ideas of the Second International that national forces should be free to just go their own way. It is the job of every Marxist to take part in that debate and formulation of Programme, and the existence of the Internet facilitates that process.
I do not share your pessimism that the Palestinian workers cannot be won to a socialist programme. I believe they are just as “noble” in that respect as Israeli workers or British workers as I said earlier. The whole matter comes down to the question of tactics, strategy, programme of those Palestinian Marxists, and the support they can be given in building their strength by Marxists internationally, and by the International Labour Movement. If we had the kind of International Marxist Movement we had in 1920 this would not even be a question for discussion. That Movement would be debating the tactics and strategy Palestinian Marxists should be adopting, would determine that, and would give considerable backing to implementing it. We don’t for reason I have elaborated previously. We have to rebuild such a Movement in the way Marx and Engels set about it. It is no accident that the first thing they did in attempting to build such a Movement was to establish it as an “International” organisaiton of Workingmen. Even now as Marxists around the world we can give our support to the Marxists in Palestine, we can encourage the development of an adequate programme, and we can argue, for constructing in our countries the kind of international workers organisations that can give practical support to such organisations, to help them win the leadership in such struggles. We should do so.
“The material conditions, the oppression faced by Catholics were essentially no different, in fact probably less acute, than the conditions faced by oppressed nationalities within Russia at the beginning of the twentieth century, which led Lenin and the Bolsheviks to develop such a strategy and principle as the way to deal with such situations.”
“You are highlighting here the importance of Socialists being in control of state power, by having this power they could influence change. I think Tito adopted similar strategies in the former Yugoslavia, wonder how that turned out?”
Not at all. The very opposite. Lenin developed his ideas on the National Question at the beginning of the twentieth century. By 1912, his thoughts on this matter pretty much reached their peak. There is little in his later writings on the National Question, for example at the 2nd Congress of the Third International, which differs from the position he had developed by 1912. And that position was developed, in those conditions precisely to deal with the kind of situation that exists now. How do you at the same time build the power and strength of the working class to pursue its own class interests, and at the same time undermine the real divisions amongst that class fostered by class society. Tito, effectively, just followed the same policy as Stalin, which amounted to suppressing the national aspirations of the minorities in Yugoslavia under the yoke of Serb nationalism, whilst building up bases of support in those national minorities through their Stalinist elites, by giving members of those elites privileges and sops of state positions.
“And, ultimately, it can be resolved in one of three ways. It can be resolved by Britain holding on to its colony, and playing on the fears of Unionists, in order to once again crush the Nationalist Community. It can be resolved by Britain resigning itself to giving up its colony and abandoning the Unionists to their fate in a United Ireland, which would mean the Southern clerical state allying with the Northern Nationalists to suppress those Unionists. It can be resolved by the workers North and South, Catholic and Protestant recognising their shared interests as workers, shared interests in a democratic solution that opposes the oppression of either community, and develops a Programme to develop workers unity around those basic goals together with a series of socialist demands that unite workers as workers against bosses. I choose that latter option as the most progressive,”
“I also agree with the latter, I think this solution is now in a better position to be realised due to the “stages” that have gone before, I think you need to recognise that in some exceptional cases your tactics must be refined, if not completely abandoned.”
I don’t think that 30 years of sectarian division, of the loss of thousands of workers lives, of the imposition of draconian state powers, of fostering of bourgeois reformist ideas have at all put such a solution in a better position!!!! I think that had there been during the 1960’s a sufficiently strong Marxist organisation in Ireland that could have adopted the kind of strategy that I have set out along the lines of Lenin’s ideas on the National Question, and had fought for that at that time, not only could such an organisation have won support amongst the masses in resolving those issues, but would by now have created a powerful working class force mobilised around a socialist programme, rather than the bourgeois reformist programme that exists now at best, and the outright Capitalist agenda of the main parties North and South of the border. Were that not bad enough, as I said the basic issue which divides the class on the question of the border has not in any case been resolved. Your “stages” have not created a better condition for a working class solution, economic development, particularly over the last ten years has merely helped mask the problem and delay the need for a solution.
“Which means you don’t agree at all. It means you have thrown your hands in the air and said its all too difficult, and in any case the unfolding of the idea will resolve everything, reason will triumph!”
“No, it means having a different idea of tactics to you. I can see the world slowly moving away from nationalism and with technological advancements this process will hopefully speed up and its vanishing spectre will allow socialism more room to breathe.”
Telling workers not to struggle for socialism because its utopian is not a matter of different tactics, of different politics and principles. Refusing to deal with the question of nationalism is not a matter of different tactics, but a matter of abandoning the fundamental principle of socialism as being an internationalist ideology. Arguing that you hope it might just go away on its own as a result of historical progress without recognising that historical progress only happens because really human beings struggle for particular sets of ideas – in this case internationalism in contrast to nationalism – is pure Bernsteinian revisionism.
“I said in relation to Cuba and Venezuela,
“You describe both states as they stand now but do not imagine where they are heading.”
You responded with,”
“Of course I do. I’ll describe what they are in the future when we get there and we know!!!!”
“So you don’t try to postulate where something may lead, this is certainly a break from Marxist fundamentalism and an embrace of extreme sophistry.”
No its not!!! Marx, analysed Capitalism as it was not as it might become. He made no statements about how socialism would be, because his whole method precluded such speculation!!! Lenin criticised Kautsky in their competing analyses of Imperialism. In fact, Kautsky’s idea of an “Ultra-Imperialism” was probably a more accurate description of how Imperialism was to develop in post-war period than was Lenin’s. But, the point was that Lenin wrote his Imperialism not as just something to do, but as an analysis which could guide action at the particular time, and his analysis of the nature of Imperialism AT THE TIME was correct, vis a vis Kautksy. The job for Marxists here and now is to analyse Cuba, and Venezuela for what they are not what they MIGHT become at some point in the future. Its doing the latter which is sophistry!!!
“I think your whole rant about Chavez is a clear example of where your fundamentalism leads and in this case I am glad to be on the opposite side to you. However, this debate is generally about Israel/Palestine, so I will avoid an extensive debate about this.”
What whole rant about Chavez???? Chavez is clearly as I said a populist demagogue of a type we have seen repeatedly in Latin America. He shares many similarities with Cardenas in Mexico in the 1930’s, who was a radical, Left-wing, but still bourgeois politician, who followed a nationalistic programme of economic development for Mexican Capital based on extensive nationalisation and corporatism. Other examples, are Peron in Argentina and so on. None of these people offered any real solution for the working class, because their politics remained essentially at the level of bourgeois radicalism, and at best of some kind of state capitalism imposed from the top down. That is why all of them including Chavez use state power to undermine and attack the power of independent working class action, using the police to break up strikes, sacking Trade Union militants, and so on. I’m not surprised given your Stalinist politics you side with such people who attack the organised working class, but again you show your political dishonesty by attacking anyone who challenges your religious faith in the Glorious Leader. Its why workers should steer clear of you by a million miles.
“But, you haven’t said what is exceptional in this case.”
“I have and will not repeat it. If you compare French workers relationships with English workers, this is different to that of Israeli and Palestinian ones but for you one size fits all, to me you adjust tactics in exceptional situations.”
No you haven’t and still you haven’t. You claim that Israel is a special case compared to other states. How is it? The only argument you have given is because of that State seizing Palestinian land, but that is not unique, most states have been created on a similar basis. The only difference in respect of Israel is that it is a more recent event! I don’t agree that the relationship between English Workers and French Workers is fundamentally different from the relationship between Israeli Workers and Palestinian Workers. Just look at the recent refinery dispute. Wasn’t that all about the idea that the British Workers had separate interests to the Italians? And what about Scottish and English Workers. Some Scots believe that Scotland should be separate from Britain, that they are oppressed etc. What should they do according to your stages theory? Should they begin firing rockets across the border till England concedes? Should Scottish workers forget about being in the same workers party and trade unions as their English comrades and give up the idea of fighting for their interests as workers until that independence is achieved as your stages theory suggests????
“I didn’t say any different. We both agree socialism is in the interest of workers and that we will only get socialism if the workers collectively believe this also. But I think history has shown that ultimately people choose the most progressive option, which makes the task of explaining socialism so crucial.”
What evidence do you have for this claim? I see no evidence of it whatsoever. On the contrary, time and again individuals choose the most reactionary option, because generally speaking the most reactionary option is the one which seems to coincide with the individuals personal interests!!!
“Yes I would say this. Can you off the top of your head provide an argument for something that does not exist, be it a system or an idea.”
”Yes, of course I can. I can provide an argument in favour of Communism!!!!“
“Communism is a real idea, it exists in reality and wasn’t invented out of thin air, and yes Humans have the ability make connections between things that really exist to come up with new ideas, i.e. in the context of what actually exists and is real to quote you.
Now I will ask again, provide an example for something that does not exist.”
Nonsense. Communism does not exist, and never has existed. It is an idea, a concept, an aspiration. Marx himself said that he didn’t know whether it was even possible taken in its fullest meaning as a system in which there is such abundance that the principle of “From Each according to his ability, to each according to his need”, to achieve.
“I have yet to read your articles but will do so shortly. I have to confess my original criticisms of your position were said in ignorance of co-ops generally.”
Why is that doesn’t surprise me. The whole of your method, the whole of your posts have been the same. You start from a position of ignorance, you have bigoted views held with a religious zeal which you then expound revealing the full majesty of that ignorance, and in defiance of all the facts and actual arguments and statements put forward by those whom you have decided in your ignorance are heretics, and hen proceed on the basis of bluff, bluster, and general dishonest argument to try to defend your original bigotry!
“Now while I still have to wonder why most of the left have abandoned the idea, I would have to agree that in the end only workers acting by themselves can bring about the social transformation to socialism and I guess co-ops are the only solution on the table to achieve this end.”
At least constant contact with the facts seems to be having some impact on your religious methodology.
Boffy,
ReplyDeleteThanks for your views on Venezuela; they have definitely made your position crystal clear.
However, this debate is becoming too wide; I will mainly just concentrate on Israel/Palestine.
You said,
“I have now, but it doesn’t seem to say what you claim it says, which seems to be, unfortunately, the hallmark of your method. It says nothing about these troops being “ordered to shoot Palestinian civilians”, as you claim as far as I can see. It only says that, “abuses were made possible by the permissive rules of engagement established by their superiors”. Having permissive rules of engagement is NOT ordering troops to shoot civilians. Again we see the way you have some bigoted preconceived notion in your head, and simply make things up to fit it, rather than dealing with the facts.”
The article in the independent says on the front page, in the first paragraph the following,
“…after testimonies by its own soldiers revealed that troops were allowed and, in some cases, even ORDERED to shoot UNAMRED Palestinian civilians.”
Anyone can look this up to verify my claim. So once again you base your whole argument on a complete fallacy and have a go at my methods. If I am a religious bigoted zealot, you are Alice in wonderland. I will not expect any apology as humble does not seem to be in your vocabulary, this is the case with most fundamentalists.
The Independent article also reported the following “And the atmosphere in general from what I understood from most of my men who I talked to, the lives of Palestinians, lets say, is something very, very less important than the lives of our soldiers”.
This backs up my argument that the oppressors (Israel) have to look down on the oppressed (the Palestinians) as inferior, though you of course leapt to the Israeli’s defence. It may explain why these barbaric acts take place in spite of Israel’s “open” society.
Now if I am part of the anti Semitic left (which is total bollocks) you must be part of the anti Muslim left. (Now many former leftists have abandoned the left because of their fanatical anti Muslim beliefs, maybe one day you will join them).
You said,
“It was that, which I said there could be little reason for the Israeli State actually wishing to see happen, precisely because, the kind of media coverage, the kind of open society that Israel is, would mean that it would have to explain its actions!!!!!”
The Israeli state has a history of covering up its atrocities but its lack of accountability certainly gives it confidence to openly flout is barbarism in full view of the world. Also, the Israeli state is not just the politicians sitting in their armchairs, it includes the IDF and the decisions they make are the decisions of the Israeli state. Here you incredibly ignore the history of the Israeli barbarity and in fact say the kind of society it is will see it act in a restrained way. Why should now be so different from the past?
Now on you not saying Israel tried avoided killing civilians because it was in the full glare of the media, we had an extensive debate about this and anyone can look back over it, you doubted some of brutal stories coming from Palestinian sources on the ground for this very reason. I contended that Israel had got away with this in the past and therefore would not be worried about any accountability; the facts have proved that I was right and you were wrong, though I don’t think these are facts you will be sharing with the workers.
You then went on,
“And as the article goes on to say, which rather does support the point I was making,”
“We should bear in mind too that this testimony was made public by a concerned Israeli academic. Whatever crimes might be laid at the door of the IDF, it should not be Israeli society on trial here. Indeed, it is a tribute to the openness of Israel's democracy, that we have learned of these allegations. Nor does the conduct of Israeli troops invalidate the overall objective of Operation Cast Lead, namely to stop Hamas firing rockets into towns in southern Israel.”
Which point is this? That Israel is an open democracy, that Israeli society is not on trial or that the Israeli assault on Gaza was to stop Hamas firing on land it no longer occupied???
You said,
“But, I stand by the point made then, the real blame lies not with the troops, but with those that send them into battle, those who brutalise them.”
The danger with this argument is that you treat workers as pawns unable to think for themselves in any way whatsoever.
You said,
“What the statement shows is that people were being used as human shields, and the troops didn’t take measures they could have taken to avoid those civilians being killed.”
Where does it say people were being used as Human shields? What evidence do you have for saying that Hamas deliberately used people in this way, other than the Israeli and right wing media? Sounds like speculation to me, at bit like your full glare of the media argumnet.
You said,
“And you have still failed to give us your own analysis of what Hamas constitutes as a social and political grouping, based on a Marxist or any other kind of scientific basis.”
Hamas are an Islamic Palestinian group fighting a brutal oppressor in unbearable conditions. Their religious conservatism reflects this oppression, coming from, as it does, a decadent westernised state. They came to power on the back of the corruption of Fatah and its collaboration with Israel. Under current conditions Hamas are a rational (which doesn't mean correct)response to this oppression but in the long term they cannot ultimately provide the solutions to the Palestinian workers.
Now in reality this would require a lot more analysis but your labels tell us nothing about Hamas.
You said,
“Moreover, there is a difference between Israeli workers who by law have to serve as conscripts in the army, and Palestinians in Hamas and other organisations who fire rockets and carry out bombings etc. against Israeli workers on their own volition. The latter can choose a different set of tactics and strategy at their own volition.”
So Israeli law demands that its citizens play an active role in the oppression of the Palestinians and being unthinking automons they gleefully accept, whereas the Palestinians, though oppressed, are in a position where they can do anything, be it fight, plead to the unthinking automons for solidarity or submit to the oppression/humiliation they suffer. You’d think with this argument it is better to be oppressed than oppressor.
You said,
“There is not a single country on the planet where the majority of workers do not associate themselves on the same nationalistic basis with their own state. Israel is no different in that regard than any other state”
Hang on you were criticising me for saying this was a natural alliance and now claim every country in the world suffers from this????
Anyway, I have not denied this and have said that this nationalism must be defeated in order for socialism to be victorious.
You said,
“If we had the kind of International Marxist Movement we had in 1920 this would not even be a question for discussion. That Movement would be debating the tactics and strategy Palestinian Marxists should be adopting, would determine that, and would give considerable backing to implementing it. We don’t for reason I have elaborated previously. We have to rebuild such a Movement in the way Marx and Engels set about it.”
This is all fine and even if it existed now, we would still have to confront the fact that the Palestinians are being led by Hamas and that fact would not stop our support of the Palestinian struggle.
You said,
“but I would say that given the choice as a worker of living in a State such as the US under Bush or Britain under Thatcher, states where workers DID (in the main) have the right to join a Trade Union, to strike, to demonstrate, to criticise reactionary religious ideas, to form political parties and stand in elections, where women were not murdered for committing adultery or punished for showing their faces, where gays were not murdered by the State simply for being gay and so on, or living in Iran under Ahmedinejad where none of those things apply, I would join the former.”
Firstly, Ahmedinejad did not create Iranian society and cannot be blamed for its flaws. Thatcher came to power and her whole program was based on anti working class policy. But this kind of relativism is absent from your analysis, as we clearly see with Venezuela and your bizarre refusal to postulate/evaluate where it may be heading. In fact,on this subject, what is the point of analysing anything if you have no idea what the consequences may be. Surely Marx’s statement “the point is to change the world” must include some evaluation about the future!!!
Whichever way socialism comes about in either Iran or Britain they will have differences based on the history/culture of each country, your inability to see this is a fundamental flaw in your analysis.
By the way, I don’t accept my position is a Stalinist stages one, which is why I always put it in quotation.
“I have now, but it doesn’t seem to say what you claim it says, which seems to be, unfortunately, the hallmark of your method. It says nothing about these troops being “ordered to shoot Palestinian civilians”, as you claim as far as I can see. It only says that, “abuses were made possible by the permissive rules of engagement established by their superiors”. Having permissive rules of engagement is NOT ordering troops to shoot civilians. Again we see the way you have some bigoted preconceived notion in your head, and simply make things up to fit it, rather than dealing with the facts.”
ReplyDelete“The article in the independent says on the front page, in the first paragraph the following,
“…after testimonies by its own soldiers revealed that troops were allowed and, in some cases, even ORDERED to shoot UNAMRED Palestinian civilians.”
Anyone can look this up to verify my claim. So once again you base your whole argument on a complete fallacy and have a go at my methods. If I am a religious bigoted zealot, you are Alice in wonderland. I will not expect any apology as humble does not seem to be in your vocabulary, this is the case with most fundamentalists.”
I looked up the online version of the Independent to reply to your original comment. I have checked that online copy of the Independent story here to make sure I hadn’t misread it. No I hadn’t there is no mention in that article of the words you use. Of course, its possible the printed version and online versions are different, but I can hardly be held responsible for that can I? Either way it does not change the point at issue.
“The Independent article also reported the following “And the atmosphere in general from what I understood from most of my men who I talked to, the lives of Palestinians, lets say, is something very, very less important than the lives of our soldiers”.”
And I would say that is true of any soldiers who go into combat anywhere in the world. So why do you want to make out that Jewish soldiers are in some way different than anyone else here?
“This backs up my argument that the oppressors (Israel) have to look down on the oppressed (the Palestinians) as inferior, though you of course leapt to the Israeli’s defence. It may explain why these barbaric acts take place in spite of Israel’s “open” society.
No it doesn’t any more than any other soldier who goes in to combat anywhere in the world tends to look after the interests of keeping themselves alive over and above the needs of the indigenous population. And where did I “leap to the Israeli’s defence” in anything I said here or anywhere else other than in your fevered imagination???? I said that individual acts of atrocity by soldiers couldn’t be condoned, I said that the real responsibility lay with those that sent those soldiers into conflict, I condemned the Israeli State for its attack on Gaza, how is any of that “Leaping to the Israeli’s defence” other than in the mind of someone who will accept nothing other than total adoration of Hamas?
“Now if I am part of the anti Semitic left (which is total bollocks) you must be part of the anti Muslim left. (Now many former leftists have abandoned the left because of their fanatical anti Muslim beliefs, maybe one day you will join them).”
One again you appear only to be able to see a world in which Muslims live as an oppressed minority. Many Palestinians are not Muslims yet in your complete surrender to the reactionary politics of the clerical-fascists you proceed as though such people don’t exist – just as your clerical-fascist mentors do. Nothing I have said could be taken as being “anti-Muslim”. I am certainly anti-Hamas along with anti every other reactionary clerical-fascist or other social force, including anti-Israeli State. There is the difference between us on a plate. I differentiate on class lines, and so differentiate between the Israeli workers who I support and the Israeli State who I oppose, just as I differentiate between the Palestinian workers who I support, and Hamas who I oppose. You make no such class differentiation, you put yourself on the side of Hamas, making no distinction between them and those such as Palestinian workers, women, socialists, gays and so onwho Hamas oppress, in order to set yourself in opposition to all Israelis. In short you adopt the position of a reactionary nationalist.
“It was that, which I said there could be little reason for the Israeli State actually wishing to see happen, precisely because, the kind of media coverage, the kind of open society that Israel is, would mean that it would have to explain its actions!!!!!”
“The Israeli state has a history of covering up its atrocities but its lack of accountability certainly gives it confidence to openly flout is barbarism in full view of the world.”
Yes, it does have a history of covering up its actions like every other class state. But, why bother covering up unless you are concerned about what you are covering up being revealed??? And it is accountable, which is why it does try to cover things up!!!
“Also, the Israeli state is not just the politicians sitting in their armchairs, it includes the IDF and the decisions they make are the decisions of the Israeli state. Here you incredibly ignore the history of the Israeli barbarity and in fact say the kind of society it is will see it act in a restrained way. Why should now be so different from the past?”
But, I never said that it would act in a restrained way! All the history of action by the Israeli state shows it does not. The point I was making was that it was impossible to know what the facts were in the instance of the school, and that there is a considerable difference between having an attitude that says “We are going to bomb this area, and if civilians get killed well that’s just too bad”, and an attitude that says “We are going to tell our troops to just go out and shoot civilians”!!!! Britain killed tens of thousands of civilians in bombing Dresden – a barbaric act in itself – but still different from troops on the ground going to individual civilians houses or schools and shooting those civilians for the hell of it!!!
“Now on you not saying Israel tried avoided killing civilians because it was in the full glare of the media, we had an extensive debate about this and anyone can look back over it, you doubted some of brutal stories coming from Palestinian sources on the ground for this very reason. I contended that Israel had got away with this in the past and therefore would not be worried about any accountability; the facts have proved that I was right and you were wrong, though I don’t think these are facts you will be sharing with the workers.”
Except as a reading of that debate would show I again didn’t say what you claim I said. Again that is typical of your dishonest method of accusing people of saying things they never said.
What I originally said was after having spoken about atrocities committed in previous conflicts,
“Yesterday the news was full of the attack by an Israeli Tank crew on a UN school in Gaza. According to Israel the soldiers had come under fire from the school. I don't know if that is true, we probably never will know. It could be one of the atrocities referred to above. On the other hand there seems little to be gained for Israel or the individual soldiers from such an act in the full glare of international publicity.”
In other words I was saying from the beginning that this act COULD have been an atrocity. Nothing in that, and especially in everything else I said condemning Israel for the attack on Gaza could be taken by anyone other than an apologist for Hamas as any kind of defence of Israel, especially as it went on again to condemn Israel for having sent those troops into that situation, so that if an atrocity had been committed the real responsibility for it lay not with the troops, but with those that sent them into battle!!! You say I doubted the brutal stories coming out of Gaza!!! Where, for God’s sake where did I say that. Again I ask you to give the evidence to back up your wild accusations! How could I deny that, when in every single post on the issue I condemned Israel for its brutal attack on Gaza??? You are just making these lies up as you go along now, surely aren’t you???
“And as the article goes on to say, which rather does support the point I was making,”
“We should bear in mind too that this testimony was made public by a concerned Israeli academic. Whatever crimes might be laid at the door of the IDF, it should not be Israeli society on trial here. Indeed, it is a tribute to the openness of Israel's democracy, that we have learned of these allegations. Nor does the conduct of Israeli troops invalidate the overall objective of Operation Cast Lead, namely to stop Hamas firing rockets into towns in southern Israel.”
“Which point is this? That Israel is an open democracy, that Israeli society is not on trial or that the Israeli assault on Gaza was to stop Hamas firing on land it no longer occupied???”
Last point first. Hamas was not firing rockets on land Israel no longer occupied. It was firing rockets at Israeli workers in Israel!!!!
Israeli society is not on trial other than from anti-semites. The Israeli State is on trial for its actions, but only a crude nationalist can blame Israeli workers for the actions of that State. It would mean blaming those oppressed by that State, for the actions of the State that oppresses them.
Yes, the point is that Israel is an open democracy, and it is because of that that these stories were revealed and discussed. Its precisely for that fact that my original statement makes sense that its one thing to act brutally in conducting bombing and shelling that endangers civilians, and another for a State to order deliberate acts of civilian atrocities in the full glare of media criticism both within Israel, and throughout the world. I’m not saying it didn’t happen clearly the attack on the school happened, the question remains what was the actual circumstances surrounding it. It could have been an act of atrocity purely by the individual soldiers, it could have been an order from the soldiers superiors, it could have been an order from the top of the military hierarchy, or it could have been a response by soldiers to a situation in which they were being fired on, and who responded to that fire without concern for the risk of civilians who might be affected.
“But, I stand by the point made then, the real blame lies not with the troops, but with those that send them into battle, those who brutalise them.”
“The danger with this argument is that you treat workers as pawns unable to think for themselves in any way whatsoever.”
But, in many situations in respect of workers as individuals that is essentially the case, or more precisely not that the worker cannot think for themselves, but that the conditions under which they can think inevitably lead them to a particular conclusion. Under those conditions it is the worker who is the victim, and I am not going to blame the victim in that situation.
“What the statement shows is that people were being used as human shields, and the troops didn’t take measures they could have taken to avoid those civilians being killed.”
“Where does it say people were being used as Human shields? What evidence do you have for saying that Hamas deliberately used people in this way, other than the Israeli and right wing media? Sounds like speculation to me, at bit like your full glare of the media argumnet.”
The whole point about shooting without regard for the civilians itself arises because of the use of such tactics by Hamas. Its well documented,
“In November 2006, Palestinian women volunteered as human shields to allow the escape of Hamas gunmen from Israeli forces in Beit Hanoun in the Gaza Strip. The armed Palestinians had barricaded themselves in a mosque, which was surrounded by Israeli troops and tanks. According to a Hamas spokeman, a crowd of women gathered outside the mosque in response to an appeal on the local radio station for women to protect the Hamas fighters. The Palestinian gunmen escaped by dressing in women's clothes and hiding in the large group.….
According to a transcript translated and published by the Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI) on 29 February 2008, a Hamas parliamentarian spoke of a "death-seeking" culture where women, children and the elderly volunteer as human shields against Israeli military attacks. "[The enemies of Allah] do not know that the Palestinian people have developed its [methods] of death and death-seeking," Fathi Hammad is quoted by Memri in a speech televised on Hamas' Al-Aqsa television station. "For the Palestinian people, death has become an industry, at which women excel, and so do all the people living on this land. The elderly excel at this, and so do the mujahideen and the children," Hammad is quoted by MEMRI as saying. "This is why they have formed human shields of the women, the children, the elderly, and the mujahideen, in order to challenge the Zionist bombing machine. It is as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy: 'We desire death like you desire life,'" he said.”
See: Here
and here
“And you have still failed to give us your own analysis of what Hamas constitutes as a social and political grouping, based on a Marxist or any other kind of scientific basis.”
“Hamas are an Islamic Palestinian group fighting a brutal oppressor in unbearable conditions. Their religious conservatism reflects this oppression, coming from, as it does, a decadent westernised state. They came to power on the back of the corruption of Fatah and its collaboration with Israel. Under current conditions Hamas are a rational (which doesn't mean correct)response to this oppression but in the long term they cannot ultimately provide the solutions to the Palestinian workers.
Now in reality this would require a lot more analysis but your labels tell us nothing about Hamas.”
No its your description here that tells us nothing about Hamas. You tell us nothing about what class they represent, what programme they fight on and so on. It tells us notghing about the politics of the organisation, and therefore, no basis on which anyone could judge whether it could be given support or otherwise!!! In contrast, the description clerical-fascist does sum exactly what the politics of Hamas are, Nationalist, Bourgeois, AntiWorking Class, Clericalist, and anti-democratic.
“Moreover, there is a difference between Israeli workers who by law have to serve as conscripts in the army, and Palestinians in Hamas and other organisations who fire rockets and carry out bombings etc. against Israeli workers on their own volition. The latter can choose a different set of tactics and strategy at their own volition.”
“So Israeli law demands that its citizens play an active role in the oppression of the Palestinians and being unthinking automons they gleefully accept, whereas the Palestinians, though oppressed, are in a position where they can do anything, be it fight, plead to the unthinking automons for solidarity or submit to the oppression/humiliation they suffer. You’d think with this argument it is better to be oppressed than oppressor.”
Oh for goodness sake grow up. You do not have to be an unthinking automaton, or to “gleefully accept” the fact that the State in which you live has laws, and short of a revolution to change the nature of the State you have to abide by those laws. If that were not the case no ruling class would ever have bothered creating a State in the first place!!!! And its precisely because workers are NOT unthinking automatons that opposition to such States DOES arise, but it is the whole job of Marxists to try to find ways of encouraging and developing that opposition and channelling it into ways that can be effective. That is why instances of opposition such as the statements of those soldiers in the Independent DOES arise. Its why individuals DO refuse to serve in the armed forces or reject military orders. Such as in this story:
War Refusers
However, just as the number of workers who shake off the ruling ideas of Capitalism are at any one time small, without the active role of a Workers Party, and its role in changing those workers material conditions etc. so such individuals who can break free of the bourgeois ideas here are small without a similar intervention. That is the whole point of the agenda I have proposed!
“There is not a single country on the planet where the majority of workers do not associate themselves on the same nationalistic basis with their own state. Israel is no different in that regard than any other state”
“Hang on you were criticising me for saying this was a natural alliance and now claim every country in the world suffers from this????”
The difference is that I believe that that alliance can and has to be broken by Marxists intervening and developing a programme which unites workers. You on the other hand have described such a perspective as “Utopian”!!!!! In other words I believe that such an alliance is not natural, not grounded in the objective interests of the workers, you believe it is. That is why you align yourself with reactionary bourgeois forces such as Hamas.
“Anyway, I have not denied this and have said that this nationalism must be defeated in order for socialism to be victorious.”
Except, in the case of Gaza you call on the Palestinian workers not to throw off that Nationalism, but to embrace it, to subordinate their interests and struggle to a National struggle under the leadership of Hamas, because you believe in the stages theory where workers cannot advance their own interests until the interests of the bourgeois national revolution have been achieved. Worse you reject the idea of Palestinian workers rejecting nationalism and fighting alongside their Israeli brothers and sisters as Utopian, lumping those Israeli workers together in one reactionary mass with their own oppressors in the Israeli State!!!!
“If we had the kind of International Marxist Movement we had in 1920 this would not even be a question for discussion. That Movement would be debating the tactics and strategy Palestinian Marxists should be adopting, would determine that, and would give considerable backing to implementing it. We don’t for reason I have elaborated previously. We have to rebuild such a Movement in the way Marx and Engels set about it.”
“This is all fine and even if it existed now, we would still have to confront the fact that the Palestinians are being led by Hamas and that fact would not stop our support of the Palestinian struggle.”
Except under those conditions the position of Hamas could not at all be assumed to be what it is now. Secondly, you talk about supporting the Palestinian struggle, but exactly what do you mean by that, struggle for what ends specifically? And although, as I’ve said as part of supporting a struggle by the Palestinians for an end to oppression Marxists under such conditions might OFFER a military alliance with Hamas, in practice such an alliance is unlikely precisely because of the clerical-fascist politics of Hamas. In fact, in circumstances of a powerful Labour Movement, with a strong Marxist influence threatening to overthrow Capitalism in the region and establish workers states, it is far more likely that the reactionaries of Hamas would form an alliance with the Israeli State to suppress such a movement, just as the clerical fascists of Al Qaeda and the Taliban formed an alliance with US Imperialism against the USSR in Afghanistan.
As a socialist my goal is the achievement of socialism not fulfilling the wishes of bourgeois nationalists at the expense of that goal.
“Firstly, Ahmedinejad did not create Iranian society and cannot be blamed for its flaws.”
He was one of the revolutionary guards!!! He stands full square behind the reactionary clerical ideas on which the revolution was hijacked by the Mullahs. He certainly does not challenge those ideas now.
“Thatcher came to power and her whole program was based on anti working class policy.”
So is Ahmedinejad’s for God’s sake. But far worse. At least under Thatcher the basics of bourgeois democracy that enable workers to function in a Labour Movement were maintained, but in Ahmedinejad’s Iran, even those basic bourgeois freedoms are denied!
“But this kind of relativism is absent from your analysis,”
On the contrary I am quite happy to make the relative distinction between the RELATIVELY progressive bourgeois democratic Thatcher, and the RELATIVELY reactionary clerical-fascist Ahmedinejad. But, that distinction between the two masks of bourgeois rule would not cause me to support the relatively lesser evil of Thatcher over Ahmedinejad, because relative to socialism they are both reactionary, and bourgeois democratic rule only continues for as long as it is in the interests of the ruling class to utilise it. Making that distinction between the two would not cause me to support Britain if it chose to engage in a war against Iran designed to subjugate it, though in the case of a war between the two over say an Iranian attempt to expand militarily into Iraq or Afghanistan would cause me to call for the defeat of both by their respective working classes.
“as we clearly see with Venezuela and your bizarre refusal to postulate/evaluate where it may be heading.”
What is the point of postulating where Venezuela may be heading if by that you mean where Chavez might be taking it.
“In fact, on this subject, what is the point of analysing anything if you have no idea what the consequences may be. Surely Marx’s statement “the point is to change the world” must include some evaluation about the future!!!”
Precisely, what is the point theorising where Chavez might lead Venezuela when the whole point is to mobilise the working class against Chavez and the rest of the Venezuelan bourgeoisie in order to change it from a bourgeois society to a socialist society!!!!! I can only theorise where Venezuela may be headed if I know how the working class is going to move forward to bring about that change. Either the working class in Venezuela will organise itself through its Trade Unions, through the development of independent workers Co-operatives, and through the creation of its own mass independent Workers Party – which might come out of a split in the PSUV, or through the workers kicking out the bourgeois elements within the PSUV – or else, it will go down to defeat as either Chavez does what every other Left Social Democratic leader has done before in history, which is to throw the burden of any future crisis on to the backs of the workers, or else that he is replaced by the Venezuelan bourgeoisie – possibly with external support – with someone who will.
“Whichever way socialism comes about in either Iran or Britain they will have differences based on the history/culture of each country, your inability to see this is a fundamental flaw in your analysis.”
Where have I ever said that socialism in Britain or in Iran, or the way it comes about would be the same???? In fact, in one post somewhere I have specifically said the opposite!!!